My 10k stars Monkcher

[wax_on_wax_off]

Warning: This build is the only one without full ranks in UMD and with good reason: it can hit 100% heal scrolls anyway due to past lives. Archers are always going to be a little behind the eight-ball so need to make up for it in self-sufficiency and versatility. My current suggested first life archer build is 12 monk/6 ranger/2 artificer.

Concept/Goals: 10,000 Stars Archer
Class: 12 monk / 6 ranger / 2 fighter
Alignment: Lawful Neutral
Multiclass progression: 1-6: Ranger, 7-12: Monk, 13-14 fighter, 15-20 monk

Stats and Race (36pt build): Half-Elf
Str: 45 (14 base +1 fighter +4 tome +2 completionist +8 item +2 insightful +1 exceptional +2 rage +2 madstone +2 rams might +2 yugo +2 double madstone +3 primal scream)
Dex: 25 (17 base +4 tome +2 cmplt +6 item -2 earth)
Con: 34 (14 base +3 tome +2 cmplt +6 item +2 rage +4 madstone +3 earth III +1 exceptional con)
Int: 14 (9 base +3 tome +2 completionist)
Wis: 50 (16 base +6 levels +4 tome +2 cmplt +4 enhancements +7 item +3 insightful +2 yugo +2 ship +4 shiradi)
Cha: 19 (8 base +3 tome +2 cmplt +6 item)
32/34 point build: Drop int/dex
Ability increase every 4 levels: All in wisdom.

Skills: Concentration (23), Balance (10), UMD (11), Tumble (1), Move Silently (14), Spot (23)

Feats (by level): Point Blank Shot (1), Completionist (3), Past Life: Arcane Prodigy (6), Weapon Focus: Ranged (9), Dodge (12), Past Life: Sneak of Shadows (15), Precision (18), Combat Archery (21), Past Life: Soldier of the Faith (24)
Feats (monk): Toughness (7), Zen Archery (8), Stunning Fist (12)
Feats (fighter): Improved Precise Shot (13), Improved Critical: Ranged (14)
Feats (ranger): Favoured Enemy: Evil Outsider (1), FE: Construct (6)

Undead will be a FE until swapping to EO after Necro 4.

Enhancements (Monk): Ninja Spy I (4), Static Charge (2), Improved Jump II (2), Improved Tumble II (2), Ninja Spy II (2), Way of the Patient Tortoise (3), Master of Sea (5), Master of Stone (5), Adept of Wind (2), 10,000 Stars (1), Wisdom III (10), Improved Recovery I (2)
Enhancements (Ranger): Sprint Boost I (1), Favoured Damage II (3),
Enhancements (Fighter): Strength I (2), Haste Boost I (1)
Enhancements (Half-Elf): Arcane Archer I (4), Conjure +5 Arrows (4), Slayer Arrows (5), Improved Rogue Dilettante II (6), Versatility IV (10), Adaptability: Wisdom I (2)
Epic enhancements (Shiradi Champion): Wisdom IV, Double Rainbow, Healing Spring III, Illusion of Wellbeing I, Audience with the Queen, Rain of Arrows, Stand and Deliver
Epic enhancements (twists): Echoes of the Ancestors: Shiradi Champion (4), Damage Boost IV (2), Enlightenment (1)

Equipment (hypothetical max DPS, obviously need something more balanced):
Helm: Epic Mroranon Helm (GFL)
Gloves: Epic Gloves of the Claw
Cloak: Cloak of the Wolf
Boots: Madstone Boots
Trinket: Planar Focus of Prowess (+8 strength)
Bracers: Epic Bracers of the Claw
Belt: Knosts Belt
Necklace: Gilvaenors Necklace
Goggles: Tharnes Goggles
Armour: Spider Spun Caparison (+3 insightful wisdom)
Ring1: Encrusted Ring (+2 insightful strength)
Ring2: Gilvaenors Ring (20% healing amp)
Weapons: Pinion, Cloud Piercer

Details:
DPS: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...4QzdtNVE#gid=0

[GuntherBovine]

:
Multiclass progression: 1-6: Ranger, 7-12: Monk, 13-14 fighter, 15-20 monk
:
:
Feats (by level): Past Life: Paladin (1), Point Blank Shot (1), Mental Toughness (3), Weapon Focus: Ranged (6), Improved Critical: Ranged (9), Zen Archery (12), Past Life: Soldier of the Faith (15), Extend (18)
Feats (monk): Toughness (1), Stunning Fist (2), Dodge (6)
Feats (fighter): Precise Shot (1), Improved Precise Shot (2)
Feats (ranger bonus): TWF, ITWF, SS, RS, MS, Diehard, Favoured Enemy: Evil Outsider (1), FE: Construct (6)

TR's are way beyond my experience, but I would think you would want to take Zen Archery at level 7 with your Monk Feat. As you have it now, you will go uncentered every time use a bow in levels 7-11.

[Absolute-Omniscience]

Equipment:
Head: Epic Helm of Frost
Gloves: Epic Gloves of the Claw
Cloak: Epic Envenomed Cloak
Boots: Epic Boots of Corrosion
Trinket: Epic Gem of Many Facets
Bracers: Windhowler Bracers
Belt: GS MinII +45 HP Belt
Necklace: Shintao Cord
Goggles: Epic Raven's Sight
Armour: Epic Frozen Tunic (toughness)
Ring1: Epic Ring of the Stalker
Ring2: Kyosho's Ring (+2 exceptional strength)
Weapons: Epic Bow of Earth, Epic Thornlord, Air/Water Alchemic Bow, LitII GS Bow

Lotd instead of gem, and claw bracers instead of howler =
+2 con
more damage per shot if you get a mod from it. Even without one it is still not too far behind (0.8 a shot*).
1 all stats

And I'd personally take vod goggles over epic raven's sight. The +8 Sa damage is much better than +2 excep wisdom.

*Wind howler's is +1 dmg, +2 to hit
proc is 10d6=35/2 (low dc they'll save 95% of the time) = 0.8ish, that isn't multiplied in crits.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Lotd instead of gem, and claw bracers instead of howler =
+2 con
more damage per shot if you get a mod from it. Even without one it is still not too far behind (0.8 a shot*).
1 all stats

And I'd personally take vod goggles over epic raven's sight. The +8 Sa damage is much better than +2 excep wisdom.

*Wind howler's is +1 dmg, +2 to hit
proc is 10d6=35/2 (low dc they'll save 95% of the time) = 0.8ish, that isn't multiplied in crits.

Initial testing seems to indicate that each point of wisdom modifier will add over 3% DPS to 10k stars which means that DPS wise it is probably superior. +1 Stunning fist DC is an important consideration too for CC. +4 AB is important for a low strength character in melee who will often have aggro (which happens to archers).

Including LotD conflicts with Abishai set - I wouldn't include both. So far, I think I value the additional AB that this setup offers in the content that I tend to run and also the utility.

I'd change the setup if there was a practical place to slot +2 exceptional wisdom elsewhere and if I decided against the abishai set (so far only reason I want it over mroranon helm is for the AC which will be quite useful in non-epic content but i might change my mind about this, see how I go).

[Absolute-Omniscience]

Initial testing seems to indicate that each point of wisdom modifier will add over 3% DPS to 10k stars which means that DPS wise it is probably superior. +1 Stunning fist DC is an important consideration too for CC. +4 AB is important for a low strength character in melee who will often have aggro (which happens to archers).

Including LotD conflicts with Abishai set - I wouldn't include both. So far, I think I value the additional AB that this setup offers in the content that I tend to run and also the utility.

I'd change the setup if there was a practical place to slot +2 exceptional wisdom elsewhere and if I decided against the abishai set (so far only reason I want it over mroranon helm is for the AC which will be quite useful in non-epic content but i might change my mind about this, see how I go).

Alright, I see your reasoning. But isn't that 3% just while under the effect on 10k stars? And the up-time on that is what 1/3 or 1/2? That leaves it at 1-1.5%, for a total of 2-3% dps from 2 wis. I *think* that +8 SA should yield more DPS. But still, you've got other advantages from wis as well...

How does the lotd conflict with Abishai? From what I can see you only have 3 pieces, (4 with set) so you won't get the 5 item bonus either way.

[maddmatt70]

Initial testing seems to indicate that each point of wisdom modifier will add over 3% DPS to 10k stars which means that DPS wise it is probably superior. +1 Stunning fist DC is an important consideration too for CC. +4 AB is important for a low strength character in melee who will often have aggro (which happens to archers).

Actually from a pure dps standpoint going Strength based is validated by 3% for 10k stars. Every point of Strength modifier will add 2-3% dps (depends on what a character's base damage is) for every bow shot and since a player will presumable be manyshoting when the manyshot timer comes up as well as for 10k stars and when the monk melees strength provides more damage. If wis modifier was say 5% Dps to 10k stars then this might be a different story. In regards to stunning fist that kind of depends on play style, but with air alchemical wraps I can tell you stunning dc will not be much of a problem. Since monks can have an outrageous healing amp especially as a helf and with shadow fade, great saves, etc I am not that worried about aggro.

Thank you for providing the % dps to 10k analysis.

[maddmatt70]

Lotd instead of gem, and claw bracers instead of howler =
+2 con
more damage per shot if you get a mod from it. Even without one it is still not too far behind (0.8 a shot*).
1 all stats

And I'd personally take vod goggles over epic raven's sight. The +8 Sa damage is much better than +2 excep wisdom.

*Wind howler's is +1 dmg, +2 to hit
proc is 10d6=35/2 (low dc they'll save 95% of the time) = 0.8ish, that isn't multiplied in crits.

I personally like the FB Set, upgraded wretched twilight, a pirate cove helm +6 seeker with +15 balance on it, +45 shroud hp min 2 boots,and epic red dragon robes.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Alright, I see your reasoning. But isn't that 3% just while under the effect on 10k stars? And the up-time on that is what 1/3 or 1/2? That leaves it at 1-1.5%, for a total of 2-3% dps from 2 wis. I *think* that +8 SA should yield more DPS. But still, you've got other advantages from wis as well...

How does the lotd conflict with Abishai? From what I can see you only have 3 pieces, (4 with set) so you won't get the 5 item bonus either way.

30 seconds of every minute so 1/2 which makes 1.5%+ overall iirc. This'll only really equate to a few points of damage per wisdom modifier but it makes it better than strength at higher levels of gear (litII bow+).

I'm wondering if I'm going overkill on AB a bit wanting +4 ravens, +2 shintao and maxing out wisdom but for mobs like epic lailat when getting -8 AB from manyshot I'm hoping it'll balance out.

[Thrudh]

when getting -8 AB from manyshot I'm hoping it'll balance out.

There's no -8 penalty when you use manyshot...

Also, you definitely want to take Zen Archery early...

Here's my monk archer (Rolled up BEFORE the 10k stars change... I love the new 10k stars boost, but my very niche character has now become mainstream!! )

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=349060

I like Wisdom-based over Strength based for the extra arrows, better to-hit when ranging, higher AC, and Stunning Fist DC.

[Thrudh]

Gloves: Epic Gloves of the Claw

Missing sneak attack, not sure where that should go.

I'd suggest the Crystal Coves Brawling Gloves... +7 STR, 1d4 extra damage, trip and daze on a 20, +4 sneak attack, yellow slot. But that's a tough choice.. Hard to give up 30% Healing amp and +4 damage

Bracers: Windhowler Bracers

Why this item?

[Jaid314]

a few notes:

-from what i recall, the 3% per wisdom modifier was said to include down time. i could be wrong though.
-also from what i recall, the wind howlers unlike the gloves/trinket for the electric version either do not have a save DC at all or have a very high save DC.
-sneak attack item is not quite as valuable on a ranged character. only works at short range, which is certainly going to happen fairly often, but still not nearly as often as will happen for melee.

[Thrudh]

a few notes:

-from what i recall, the 3% per wisdom modifier was said to include down time. i could be wrong though.
-also from what i recall, the wind howlers unlike the gloves/trinket for the electric version either do not have a save DC at all or have a very high save DC.
-sneak attack item is not quite as valuable on a ranged character. only works at short range, which is certainly going to happen fairly often, but still not nearly as often as will happen for melee.

Good points, but vorpal strikes (like the bracer's sonic damage) aren't worth as much for an AA with slayer arrows. Against trash, I would think they will be wasted quite often.

[Cyr]

Alright, I see your reasoning. But isn't that 3% just while under the effect on 10k stars? And the up-time on that is what 1/3 or 1/2? That leaves it at 1-1.5%, for a total of 2-3% dps from 2 wis. I *think* that +8 SA should yield more DPS. But still, you've got other advantages from wis as well...

How does the lotd conflict with Abishai? From what I can see you only have 3 pieces, (4 with set) so you won't get the 5 item bonus either way.

Actually the numbers look more like this...

% increase in shots under 10K per point of wisdom bonus ~ 12.25 (x)^(0.187) where x = your wisdom bonus. More wisdom bonus leads to lesser benefits per point.

Basically this looks like a ~+11 wisdom modifer adds 85% extra shots under 10K shots or a +7 wisdom modifier grants 60% extra shots under 10K shots.

Manyshot does indeed drop the % increase to dps per wisdom modifier further as the two can not be active together and many shot does add more shots also.

The 3% number is a really basic big picture number which is fairly close if you neglect manyshot, but does reflect the half uptime of 10K stars.

If I remember manyshot correctly it is 20 seconds during a two minute period for an uptime of 20/120 or 1/6 of the time with four arrows during that time. So that would change the estimate from 10K stars a decent amount for total dps addition...

horribly rough dps for a bow only user...first term is many shot's dps contribution, second term is 10K stars, and last term is what happens when both are not being used. The last term is the one which goes sideways on you when you do melee also as the 'base' dps number presumably is higher then bow if you are bothering to do it in the first place (for mostly monk toons it is).

(base dps) *(1/6-% of that 20 seconds taken up by activation time) * 4 + (base dps) * (1/2-% of 30 seconds taken up by activation time) * (ROF increase from 10K stars) + (base dps) * (1-1/2-1/6) = real dps

So basically the many shot term (assuming non-realistic zero activation time) contributes somewhere between 4/3 (for a gimped wisdom) and 1/2 (for a very high wisdom score) of what 10K stars does which is a fairly drastic change when you ignore it. With a more realistic activation time that contribution decreases.

So that ballpark 3% goes down to about 2% in a higher wisdom case (and gets worse as your wisdom decreases). This is despite the diminishing returns of higher wisdom towards your ROF since the opposite is true for the situation between the percentage increase of dps contribution of 10K stars compared to many shot as your wisdom increases (because many shot does not get more or less based upon this).

Again this is pretty rough math and the numbers for 10K star are very limited in nature so the best fit curve is certainly not exact and could have more then a little wiggle room.

My instinct looking at these numbers is that str would be more desirable then wisdom for level ups if you meleed during your off time, but if not it appears there is a cross over point which favors wisdom over str as you reach larger base damage numbers.

Edit: The base dps increase not considering manyshot is actually closer to 4.25% to 3.5% for the range of realistic wisdoms ignoring activation time from the numbers I am running. There is lots of room for refinement here though and my math is pretty basic and back of the hand for the most part.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Actually the numbers look more like this...

% increase in shots under 10K per point of wisdom bonus ~ 12.25 (x)^(0.187) where x = your wisdom bonus. More wisdom bonus leads to lesser benefits per point.

Basically this looks like a ~+11 wisdom modifer adds 85% extra shots under 10K shots or a +7 wisdom modifier grants 60% extra shots under 10K shots.

Manyshot does indeed drop the % increase to dps per wisdom modifier further as the two can not be active together and many shot does add more shots also.

The 3% number is a really basic big picture number which is fairly close if you neglect manyshot, but does reflect the half uptime of 10K stars.

If I remember manyshot correctly it is 20 seconds during a two minute period for an uptime of 20/120 or 1/6 of the time with four arrows during that time. So that would change the estimate from 10K stars a decent amount for total dps addition...

horribly rough dps for a bow only user...first term is many shot's dps contribution, second term is 10K stars, and last term is what happens when both are not being used. The last term is the one which goes sideways on you when you do melee also as the 'base' dps number presumably is higher then bow if you are bothering to do it in the first place (for mostly monk toons it is).

(base dps) *(1/6-% of that 20 seconds taken up by activation time) * 4 + (base dps) * (1/2-% of 30 seconds taken up by activation time) * (ROF increase from 10K stars) + (base dps) * (1-1/2-1/6) = real dps

So basically the many shot term (assuming non-realistic zero activation time) contributes somewhere between 4/3 (for a gimped wisdom) and 1/2 (for a very high wisdom score) of what 10K stars does which is a fairly drastic change when you ignore it. With a more realistic activation time that contribution decreases.

So that ballpark 3% goes down to about 2% in a higher wisdom case (and gets worse as your wisdom decreases). This is despite the diminishing returns of higher wisdom towards your ROF since the opposite is true for the situation between the percentage increase of dps contribution of 10K stars compared to many shot as your wisdom increases (because many shot does not get more or less based upon this).

Again this is pretty rough math and the numbers for 10K star are very limited in nature so the best fit curve is certainly not exact and could have more then a little wiggle room.

My instinct looking at these numbers is that str would be more desirable then wisdom for level ups if you meleed during your off time, but if not it appears there is a cross over point which favors wisdom over str as you reach larger base damage numbers.

Edit: The base dps increase not considering manyshot is actually closer to 4.25% to 3.5% for the range of realistic wisdoms ignoring activation time from the numbers I am running. There is lots of room for refinement here though and my math is pretty basic and back of the hand for the most part.

This is an amazing amount of insight that youve managed to get from just 3 samples. I'm a bit confused though, I remember reading diyon's thread and didn't see any diminishing returns referenced in his analysis. Did I miss something?

There's no -8 penalty when you use manyshot...

Also, you definitely want to take Zen Archery early...

Here's my monk archer (Rolled up BEFORE the 10k stars change... I love the new 10k stars boost, but my very niche character has now become mainstream!! )

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=349060

I like Wisdom-based over Strength based for the extra arrows, better to-hit when ranging, higher AC, and Stunning Fist DC.

The entry in the wiki, in game and my own experiences support that the -AB penalty exists while manyshot is active.

I was thinking that zen archery doesn't matter until I have access to 10k stars but I'll think on it. In particular, you leave IPS until 18 and 10k stars enhancement until 14. I'm liking that with my current layout that I'll have 10k stars, zen archery and IPS at 14 to use with a litII GS bow (can even wiggle IPS to 13 I think).

I'd suggest the Crystal Coves Brawling Gloves... +7 STR, 1d4 extra damage, trip and daze on a 20, +4 sneak attack, yellow slot. But that's a tough choice.. Hard to give up 30% Healing amp and +4 damage

Why this item?

I'll undoubtedly wear the cove gloves until I get claw gloves but for overall DPS the claw gloves will be better except in melee (but then healing amp is valuable).

Wind howler bracers are must have for ranged build, imo. +2 AB, +1 damage, +10d6 on vorpal what's not to love? The build only gets slaying arrows at 20 at which point trash mobs have much more than 500'hp at anytime that matters.

[Diyon]

This is an amazing amount of insight that youve managed to get from just 3 samples. I'm a bit confused though, I remember reading diyon's thread and didn't see any diminishing returns referenced in his analysis. Did I miss something?

Correct, the data I have so far shows a perfectly linear trend, however that could just be really lucky and due to the very small sample size (3 wis scores at 100 shots each).

[Cyr]

This is an amazing amount of insight that youve managed to get from just 3 samples. I'm a bit confused though, I remember reading diyon's thread and didn't see any diminishing returns referenced in his analysis. Did I miss something?

Yup, it is rough math to be sure.

If I was not clear about that I will be now. It is very rough math take it with a grain of salt.

Just take the samples given for increase in ROF and you will see the diminishing returns.

[OldAquarian]

Initial testing seems to indicate that each point of wisdom modifier will add over 3% DPS to 10k stars which means that DPS wise it is probably superior.

Why take as much STR as you did then, why not drop STR to 10 and MAX WIS to 18
That will be 3% more DPS - you will lose +3 STR but gain back the 4 AP you used for greater adaptability

[wax_on_wax_off]

Why take as much STR as you did then, why not drop STR to 10 and MAX WIS to 18
That will be 3% more DPS - you will lose +3 STR but gain back the 4 AP you used for greater adaptability

As I need the AB to hit in melee and -3 damage for +1 wisdom modifier doesn't work out positively. Was this suggestion serious?

In other news, does anyone know definitively if, for purposes of AB, windhowler bracers, shintao set and ravens sight set all stack? I'm assuming they all do for damage purposes with claw set too.

[Cyr]

Correct, the data I have so far shows a perfectly linear trend, however that could just be really lucky and due to the very small sample size (3 wis scores at 100 shots each).

This is the data I was using from your thread...

Calculations so far:

48 WIS: 135% increase in shots. 67.5% increase in baseline DPS.

32 WIS: 85% increase in shots. 42.5% increase in baseline DPS.

24 WIS: 60% increase in shots. 30% increase in baseline DPS.

This equates out to:

+7 wisdom modifier -> 8.57% ROF increase per +1 of wisdom
+11 wisdom modifier -> 7.72% ROF increase per +1 of wisdom
+19 wisdom modifier -> 7.1% ROF increase per +1 of wisdom

Hmm, I will have to think about this because I am almost sure that I must be doing something wrong here...

Nope, it appears I am doing it right.

This is because the numbers presumably (with such a small sample size who knows!) will lead to a linear line if you merely view the equation as wisdom bonus compared to % increase (which is correct).

The trick though is that there is an offset of +16.25% and the slope of the line is 6.25% per +1 of wisdom added when viewed in this manner. It shows the same thing I was seeing which is that as you increase in wisdom bonus the gain per plus approaches, but never reaches 6.25%.

Equation wise it would be % ROF INCREASE = 6.25%*wisdom bonus + 16.25%

In other words merely viewing it as a linear line neglects that the line has an offset.

Which leads me to the conclusion that nope I was viewing it backwards!

Each point of increasing wisdom does indeed grant you 6.25% higher ROF.

/hangs head in shame

...yet the point still remains that the increase in dps is not linear on a scale of ROF per point of wisdom bonus and does indeed decrease in the fashion stated.

Ignoring manyshot, activation times, and assuming an all bow user this is the basic math being used on my end...

1+0.0625*wisdom bonus+0.1625 = ROF DURING 10K STARS (the linear equation)
base dps * (1/2) + base dps * (1/2) * ROF DURING 10K STARS = DPS

(DPS (wisdom bonusA+1) - DPS (wisdom bonusA))/DPS (wisdom bonusA) = INCREASE IN DPS

For a wisdom bonusA = 10 (so a 10 to 11 wisdom modifier) the dps increase is ~2.24%
For a wisdom bonusA = 1 (so a 1 to 2 wisdom modifier) the dps increase is ~2.8%

That would indeed be a smaller dps increase per point of wisdom bonus. Add on many shot and I will have to redo my math, because the post above I wrote I think needs more thought put into it.

If there is anything that is wrong in the math in this post please tell me, because the last thing I want to do is give false results.

Cheers,
Cyr

[Diyon]

Why take as much STR as you did then, why not drop STR to 10 and MAX WIS to 18
That will be 3% more DPS - you will lose +3 STR but gain back the 4 AP you used for greater adaptability

I'd imagine because trading out 5/6 STR drops DPS by a good bit (it depends on weapon, not sure that drops by 3% or more, if anything you aren't getting that big of a gain there as 3%, plus since it won't be that much difference there it also smooths out your dps for non 10k stars time.