Ideas to Fix/Help Pallys

[Meat-Head]

Hello DDO Brethren and Sistren,


I was pondering pallys pensively today and considering some ideas on how to help/fix/un-nerf them.


One idea I had was adding some kind of imbue weapon with silver&cold iron ability to the capstone. It would work either off of turns and/or as an SLA. For either a turn or some SP, the pally could imbue their weapon with silver and/or cold iron for say 10 mins. (Have it work like arti spell only it's self-only).

This seems like a simple change that would help buff pallys a little against those foes they dislike so much.


Another idea: Greater Zeal Spell or ability. Perhaps the spell would add 15% double strike. Maybe 15 is too high?


RALLY FOR THE PALLY- A summary of ideas below

General


-Divine Sacrifice needs to be better at tier 2 and tier 3.
-AP costs need to go DOWN esp for smite/exalted smite lines and auras
-An extra feat at level 10 and/or 20 is popular. Another idea is to have a feat granted as part of tier 2 or 3 PrEs. For example, DoS would gain shield mastery at tier 3.
-Change smites to regen faster and/or more powerful to single foes (see pathfinder idea below)
-Reduce casting time for divine might
-Make divine might scale to X1.5 or x2 when used with THF
-Make an aura line around healing amp
-Add a fort debuff ability and/or aura
-Spells could use some love many are useless. Angelskin needs to have a different DR.


KotC PrE

-They need to do extra damage to ALL evil enemies. ATM, they suck in epics. Perhaps 1/2 the extra damage of outsiders against just normal EVIL foes.
-Regenerate smites faster
-Lower AP costs for smite enh
-Reduce cooldown for DS?


DoS PrE

-Good, just feat and AP starved. Shield feats/proficiency seems to be the main problems.


HotD

-Regen LoH
-Add Fort debuff ability (primarily for undead, but would work against anything)
-Healing amp aura?



TL;DR? AP costs need to drop; KotC needs extra damage to ALL EVIL foes (maybe /2 of the extra on Outsiders); a feat would be kewl; SMITES NEED WORK- think regen or short duration or both or pathfinder idea; HotD PrE blows atm. Needs work.

[LordPiglet]

Just a couple extra feats would really be nice. The build is so tight and with 7 (8 if human) feats, it's hard to fit in everything you want for a good paly build. Maybe a bonus feat at like 15 and 20?

Paly's are nice, but it's easier to get better AC, better intim on a Fighter just thanks to their abundance of feats.

[noinfo]

Just a couple extra feats would really be nice. The build is so tight and with 7 (8 if human) feats, it's hard to fit in everything you want for a good paly build. Maybe a bonus feat at like 15 and 20?

Paly's are nice, but it's easier to get better AC, better intim on a Fighter just thanks to their abundance of feats.

As long as kept within a tight set of possible feats (but lets face it most will be looking for those on a list of combat feats anyway)

[Habreno]

Pallys...

Bonus Feat at L10 and L20 would be nice. This is just two bonus feats, which is less than ANY class that gets bonus feats (Monk is least as of now, with three plus a path feat) and would certainly not imbalance anything. Getting two feats at relatively late levels comparatively (only other class that starts to get bonus feats of some kind at late levels is Rogue, which starts with a bonus feat at L10 and gains an additional bonus feat every three levels after) is very balanced, and being limited to certain selections would enforce this balance.

[weewoo0]

It would also be nice if they used the Pathfinder variant of Smite evil (since it would actually apply to the entire bossfight instead of 1/3 or so)

For those who dont know it off the top of their head:

Once per day, a paladin can call out to the powers of good to aid her in her struggle against evil. As a swift action, the paladin chooses one target within sight to smite. If this target is evil, the paladin adds her Cha bonus (if any) to her attack rolls and adds her paladin level to all damage rolls made against the target of her smite. If the target of smite evil is an outsider with the evil subtype, an evil-aligned dragon, or an undead creature, the bonus to damage on the first successful attack increases to 2 points of damage per level the paladin possesses. Regardless of the target, smite evil attacks automatically bypass any DR the creature might possess.

In addition, while smite evil is in effect, the paladin gains a deflection bonus equal to her Charisma modifier (if any) to her AC against attacks made by the target of the smite. If the paladin targets a creature that is not evil, the smite is wasted with no effect.

The smite evil effect remains until the target of the smite is dead or the next time the paladin rests and regains her uses of this ability. At 4th level, and at every three levels thereafter, the paladin may smite evil one additional time per day, as indicated on Table: Paladin, to a maximum of seven times per day at 19th level.

it really is a better implementation imo

[Meat-Head]

It would also be nice if they used the Pathfinder variant of Smite evil (since it would actually apply to the entire bossfight instead of 1/3 or so)

For those who dont know it off the top of their head:

it really is a better implementation imo

I like that smite version. Nice. Also, I ain't gonna argue with 2 bonus feats.

[noinfo]

It would also be nice if they used the Pathfinder variant of Smite evil (since it would actually apply to the entire bossfight instead of 1/3 or so)

For those who dont know it off the top of their head:

it really is a better implementation imo

This I really really like.

[gloopygloop]

Once per day, a paladin can call out to the powers of good to aid her in her struggle against evil. As a swift action, the paladin chooses one target within sight to smite. If this target is evil, the paladin adds her Cha bonus (if any) to her attack rolls and adds her paladin level to all damage rolls made against the target of her smite. If the target of smite evil is an outsider with the evil subtype, an evil-aligned dragon, or an undead creature, the bonus to damage on the first successful attack increases to 2 points of damage per level the paladin possesses. Regardless of the target, smite evil attacks automatically bypass any DR the creature might possess.

In addition, while smite evil is in effect, the paladin gains a deflection bonus equal to her Charisma modifier (if any) to her AC against attacks made by the target of the smite. If the paladin targets a creature that is not evil, the smite is wasted with no effect.

The smite evil effect remains until the target of the smite is dead or the next time the paladin rests and regains her uses of this ability. At 4th level, and at every three levels thereafter, the paladin may smite evil one additional time per day, as indicated on Table: Paladin, to a maximum of seven times per day at 19th level.

That's pretty sexy and it makes the Paladin into a kind of anti-caster. Not so great against trash, but absolutely outstanding and tough as nails in a big boss fight. Exactly the kind of thing that Turbine has been trying to push Paladins toward.

[Ralmeth]

I agree that something should be done to improve Paladins but this seems to tread on the toes of Artys. Also regarding feats I would love more but this won't address the issue. How about:
-reduce prestige prereqs / reduce AP costs. This would free up APs for more DPS enhancements.
-instakills need to be an option for Pallys to start to narrow the gap with arcanes. What if exhalted smite also gave a vorpal chance against an evil foe with no HP min? Or against red names it could do a bonus of 1000hp of damage if you get a vorpal strike.
-LOH needs to heal for a lot more hit points. I'm currently at 734hp in stance and it takes glorious stand plus a LOH to heal up to full or two LOH.

[Meat-Head]

I agree that something should be done to improve Paladins but this seems to tread on the toes of Artys. .

It keeps with the flavor of pallys being more self-sufficient than other melee. Plus, it would be self-only

[QuantumFX]

I’d personally like to trade the “Extra Smite Evil” enhancement chain for a “Regenerate Smite Evils faster” enhancement chain. (Lowers the time it takes to regen) Or possibly “Regenerate Extra Smites” (Uses the same timer but gives multiple smites back) I’d rather see more smite evils over the course of the quest than attempting to save them for a boss/big fight.

I think some of the ideas they have for the Divine Avenger PrE (Favored Souls) may wash over to paladins. Marking a foe and the mercilessly tanking them sounds like a good game option for paladins.

[Falco_Easts]

Change the Smite Evil to a % on any hit. Extra Smite Evil enhancements will instead add to % instead of additional smites.

Auto double strike/glancing blow bonues to evil opononents depending on pali level.

Change Divine Sacrifice to operate as the Frenzied Berserkers Frenzy does now. Activate it for a minute of decent DPS boost. If you run out of SP (or HP ) during this time it automatically de-activates.

Shorten casting time on Divine Might.

Be able to Smite Evil with bows for followers of the Silver Flame. Fluff I know and hardly a game breaker.

[FrozenNova]

Paladins lose sustained damage in return for burst damage, survivability, and limited support ability.

I think smite should:
-Act as an automatic critical in addition to the damage bonus, using a multiplier dependant on smite rank and
independant of weapon multiplier.
This is because.. non-crit smites are worthless, really. Smite should be a reliable source of burst damage to be useful.

I think divine sacrifice should:
- Reduce its cooldown at higher ranks, for higher sustained damage at a hightened cost.

I think divine might should:
- Scale with THF, either 1.5x or 2x multiplier
- Have a more reasonable casting duration.

I think auras should:
Be useful. The save aura is nice, but the others are pointless. Swap the concentration aura to a 4/8/12% healing amplification bonus aura. Swap the courage aura to a +1/2/3 bonus damage versus evil aura. Paladins are supposed to have some limited support abilities, and this is a good way to boost them.

I think the capstone should:
- Be ammended. The combination of cannith +5HBSoGEOB, artificer silver weapons, and boss fortification boosts making eSoS not often the best choice, means the capstone is much, much less useful than it should be.
- Impose a fortification debuff. Paladins can't take improved sunder, let alone land it, and debuffing fort is a big part of dealing more damage for the entire group. A decent fort debuff, similar to the previous implications of their capstone, means paladins excel at fighting bosses, while this also has good synergy with the autocrit smites.
This is thematically appropriate: a capped paladin is a divine paragon, and the intensity of their righteous assault leaves wrongdoers more vulnerable, as a counterpart to the favored soul retrebutive fortification debuff.

I think KoTC should:
- Deal reduced damage to evil enemies, and further reduced to non-good.
E.g.: KoTC III: 4d6 versus evil outsiders, 2d6 versus evil enemies, 1d6 versus all non-good targets.
For a damage prestige, the fact that it grants flat out nothing in most epics or the cannith pack does not play in its favor.

I think HoTD should:
- Be the 'healing' prestige.
- 10% stacking devotion per rank
- Let you expend a turn to cast a cha-scaled divine healing variant with cooldown equal to duration (one target at once), at rank 2.
- Let you expend a remove disease and a lay on hands to use lay on hands in an area around you, with a cooldown, at rank 3.
Thematically appropriate, given that positive energy opposes undead, and for a class that controls minor healing abilities, a prestige that focuses in that area would be suitable.

I think DoS:
- Is fine, it's the enemy to-hits that are the issue.

I think extra feats should:
- Not happen.
Being feat-limited is a core part of the class, and part of all divine classes. If you want extra feats, take the tradeoff and splash for them.

I don't think that:
- All of these should happen at once.
These are only ideas with regards to oppotunities to improve on the many different aspects of the paladin class - all of which save one, survivability, is fairly lacking.
Not that I would complain, of course..

[elraido]

-New Paladin spells are needed....9/10's of them are worthless as is
-AP lines NEED to be reduced
-Bonus Feat at 10 and 20....limited selection of course (like fighter bonus feats etc)
-I like the Divine Sac being a clickable timer idea
-KotC should have a vorpal strike like the HotD have
-Combat Ex really should be like Power Attack. If used with a shield it provides a +10 bonus to AC. Why does Power Attack reward offensive abilities greater when you sacrifice to hit, but Combat Ex doesn't do the same for AC?

[FrozenNova]

If used with a shield it provides a +10 bonus to AC. Why does Power Attack reward offensive abilities greater when you sacrifice to hit, but Combat Ex doesn't do the same for AC?

Huh? Because CE is intended only for use when you're doing everything else to boost your AC as well, which precludes using a shield or being a monk. If you're trying to draw a parallel with THF and power attack, you need to remember that TWF gets the bonus to both of their hands.

[elraido]

Huh? Because CE is intended only for use when you're doing everything else to boost your AC as well, which precludes using a shield or being a monk. If you're trying to draw a parallel with THF and power attack, you need to remember that TWF gets the bonus to both of their hands.

Huh? TWF gets the +5 bonus to both hands yes. THF gets a +10. Where does that leave S&B users? +5 to one hand...their DPS is lower compaired to TWF and THF. What CE should be doing is giving those S&B users a +10 to AC just like PA gives a +10 to THF and +5 to both hands for TWF. There would then be a balance between those two feats....PA rewards those who go for DPS with TWF and THF....CE rewarding those who go S&B.

[Meat-Head]

Huh? TWF gets the +5 bonus to both hands yes. THF gets a +10. Where does that leave S&B users? +5 to one hand...their DPS is lower compaired to TWF and THF. What CE should be doing is giving those S&B users a +10 to AC just like PA gives a +10 to THF and +5 to both hands for TWF. There would then be a balance between those two feats....PA rewards those who go for DPS with TWF and THF....CE rewarding those who go S&B.

This is down-right sensible. Stop it.

[FrozenNova]

Huh? TWF gets the +5 bonus to both hands yes. THF gets a +10. Where does that leave S&B users? +5 to one hand...their DPS is lower compaired to TWF and THF. What CE should be doing is giving those S&B users a +10 to AC just like PA gives a +10 to THF and +5 to both hands for TWF. There would then be a balance between those two feats....PA rewards those who go for DPS with TWF and THF....CE rewarding those who go S&B.

CE does reward those who go S&B, by giving them 5 extra AC. If you're using CE, you have a shield out, and while AC tanking, vice versa - you're just inanely doubling the effect of a feat for no apparent reason, not to mention screwing over the monk splash tanks who've been left out enough as it is. Simply deciding to give all shield users +5 AC solves nothing. You can't say 5 points of damage output is equal to 5 points of AC, claim it's balanced, and call it a day. Combat expertise and power attack are two completely different feats that do practically the opposite, using two entirely seperate systems. Moreover, giving players more sources of stacking AC is only adding to our problem.

[Mithran]

I would support the idea of lower AP costs.

My Paladin's Charisma is 32 (34 w Ship Buff) and that's extraordinarily high. In fact, I have a hard time seeing a Human hitting it. She's Drow w a +3 Tome, +7 Item, +3 Enhancement points and +3 Exceptional. That's frankly quite a lot of emphasis on Charisma and I feel sure it's more than 99% of Paladins at endgame.

[FrozenNova]

As already alluded to, divine might *is* the implementation of charisma to damage, even if not so direct. 'Be a little odd to grant it twice.

I would rather get more smites (ie regenerating smites). Maybe improve the threat range bonus on Exalted Smite? I don't feel smites should be auto-crits. I'd also prefer smite gain a duration to this, a la the Pathfinder paladin.

The problem being is that the damage bonus to smites is near directly lifted from pnp, where foes don't have nearly that much health, pc's don't do nearly that much damage and even a non-critical smite is a devastating blow. In DDO, where pc's do huge amounts of damage and enemies have mountains of health, a non-crit smite is basically just worth a free attack, shaving perhaps half a second off the survival time of an enemy. For what is practically a cornerstone paladin ability, I feel it a shame that it is so heavy based on luck.

While the stock of the capstone has been degraded somewhat, it still is very good. Remember, it allows you to use a wide variety of weapons in places where they would otherwise be sub-par regardless of group composition, and it deals +1d6 damage vs. evil enemies, and another +2d6 vs. many of the major bosses in the game. And the damage gets buffed by the favored soul boost to incoming aligned and light-based damage on enemies.

A fortification debuff would be nice, but I don't think it needs to get wrapped up into the capstone, and similarly, I would not want to see the existing capstone revised as such. Maybe offer a second capstone option? A better idea might be to introduce a new line of smite abilities that make up for paladins' low tactics abilities. Add the ability to reduce fort with a smite?

I just meant adding a fort debuff on hit to the existing capstone - though true, adding a fort debuff to smites would be a nicer implementation. As I was alluding to, however, the 'wide variety of weapons' isn't wide, or varied. Once upon a time that was obscenely powerful, letting you go for horoth with the eSoS. The eSoS was effectively the pinnacle, however, given that this is restricted to weapons that are a) silver, and b) non-good and c) worth using. Now that the eSoS is a poor choice of weapon against the high-fort bosses compared to the variety of new weapons that do not rely on the capstone, that list is effectively non-existant, and that part of the capstone may as well be meaningless.

Also notable is that existing paladins already have -10 spare action points. New enhancement lines will be of only dubious use.

I think it should deal the reduced damage to evil non-outsiders, but don't think the PrE should be dealing extra damage to non-evil enemies. Honestly, I'm okay with paladins "suffering" a little bit there. I put that quotes because they are still getting up to +11 damage a swing, 10% doublestrike and +9d6 light damage every 3 seconds vs. these enemies that are relatively few and far between.

[And other damage comparisons]

Very few paladins reach DM4. Very few paladins can afford DSIII. DM only lasts as many minutes as turns.
These enemies that are 'relatively few and far between' comprise all of endgame besides DA, chronoscope, and Lailat. Watching a paladin trying to compete in all other epics is more often than not laughable.

Also, a few ammendments - Fighters also get doublestrike as capstone.
If you're including divine might, you ought to include haste boost.
Don't forget that paladins have a disadvantage in using madstone rage.

Barbarians get: +18-22 strength*, +3 power attack, 6d6 vicious, 25% damage boost, supreme cleave attack speed boost, +2 crit mult on 19-20, +1 stacking crit mult on everything, and 10% glancing blow damage bonus.

Which, looking at damage alone, is 42 extra on THF, without including 25% damage boost or criticals or glancing blows. Which are considerable considering vicious is also applied to glancing blows which are also applied to main target. Which can be sustained forever. If you think paladins are dealing competitive damage, I'm afraid you're incorrect. They barely meet par even on evil outsiders.

*8 Might rage + 2 capstone + 2 power rage II + 2 frenzy + 4 death frenzy = 18,
8 Mighty rage + 2 capstone + 4 power rage IV +2 frenzy + 4 death frenzy + 2 Horc power rage = 22, and I'm probably forgetting things.