SD and DoS worthless if not tanking?

[wax_on_wax_off]

Tanking isn't all about DPS. Tanking is more about managing aggro effectively with a character that can survive the attention. That =/= MOAR DPS.

To illustrate:
There are individual items that increase threat generated by 10, 15, 20%, but there aren't individual items that increase DPS by these amounts. So yes, equipping threat gen gear will usually cause a slight loss in overall DPS. But that slight loss will be outweighed by the fact that the mob THINKS your DPS has increased vastly.
So as far as the mob is concerned, your DPS is higher, not lower.
You don't have to have the highest DPS. You just need your target to think you do.

A combination of Threat gear, HealAmp gear and AC gear will do more for a tank than standard issue DPS gear will do.

Reading comprehension fail much? My post was specifically targeted at the issue of tank builds in DPS spots in raids and the options for them to minimise their hate generation while still maintaining maximum DPS (which is what is important when not being the main tank for whatever reason).

[sirgog]

Reading comprehension fail much? My post was specifically targeted at the issue of tank builds in DPS spots in raids and the options for them to minimise their hate generation while still maintaining maximum DPS (which is what is important when not being the main tank for whatever reason).

Thinking outside the box tactically can help you find a useful task for a second tank. A lot of raids have other useful things you can do if attacking at top DPS might pull aggro.

In VOD for instance, a second tank can offtank everything but Suulo. In LOB they can offtank the dogs (usually they'll take less damage than an arcane would kiting, the dogs have poor to-hit), and in the end phase they can offtank everything but the Gate Keepers.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Thinking outside the box tactically can help you find a useful task for a second tank. A lot of raids have other useful things you can do if attacking at top DPS might pull aggro.

In VOD for instance, a second tank can offtank everything but Suulo. In LOB they can offtank the dogs (usually they'll take less damage than an arcane would kiting, the dogs have poor to-hit), and in the end phase they can offtank everything but the Gate Keepers.

Absolutely, trying to be useful is always a great idea but the general idea that I was getting at is sometimes you may want maximum DPS on a tank build without the risk of pulling aggro; for this, an easily slotted hate reduction item that doesn't reduce DPS would be ideal but I just can't think of any off the top of my head. Wasnt that the point of the original post?

[sirgog]

Absolutely, trying to be useful is always a great idea but the general idea that I was getting at is sometimes you may want maximum DPS on a tank build without the risk of pulling aggro; for this, an easily slotted hate reduction item that doesn't reduce DPS would be ideal but I just can't think of any off the top of my head. Wasnt that the point of the original post?

Well, the OP was asking 'Are all the AP invested into a Defender line worthless when someone else is more qualified to maintank boss X than me'. IMO the answer is no, but you need to be very careful with threat.

One option for threat reduction is to carry Tharne's Goggles and also the matching bracers. The goggles are a huge DPS boost, and while the bracers are rubbish, they do set off the -threat set bonus. You lose whatever you had in the bracers slot, but that's an AC item on most stalwarts. IIRC there's also an Epic Fens set with -20% threat that is solid (if unspectacular).

[scottmike0]

Tanking isn't all about DPS. Tanking is more about managing aggro effectively with a character that can survive the attention. That =/= MOAR DPS.

To illustrate:
There are individual items that increase threat generated by 10, 15, 20%, but there aren't individual items that increase DPS by these amounts. So yes, equipping threat gen gear will usually cause a slight loss in overall DPS. But that slight loss will be outweighed by the fact that the mob THINKS your DPS has increased vastly.
So as far as the mob is concerned, your DPS is higher, not lower.
You don't have to have the highest DPS. You just need your target to think you do.

A combination of Threat gear, HealAmp gear and AC gear will do more for a tank than standard issue DPS gear will do.

Well, i personally see it as dps due to one thing, The first person with the first hit gets aggression, Once you pull out that shield all DPS is lost from your character, its pretty rough to maintain aggression afterward, therefore it is DPS to keep as the Main tank of the raid...
Therefore, you see these casters DOT the big boss, and so of course they do not have any threat, yet they still are able to keep aggression the whole time due to their damage output.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Well, the OP was asking 'Are all the AP invested into a Defender line worthless when someone else is more qualified to maintank boss X than me'. IMO the answer is no, but you need to be very careful with threat.

One option for threat reduction is to carry Tharne's Goggles and also the matching bracers. The goggles are a huge DPS boost, and while the bracers are rubbish, they do set off the -threat set bonus. You lose whatever you had in the bracers slot, but that's an AC item on most stalwarts. IIRC there's also an Epic Fens set with -20% threat that is solid (if unspectacular).

Cool, good conclusion:

1. AP are never useless as you're always there as backup or for utility uses (as you described).

2. It might be possible to fit 1 threat reduction item which should eliminate any possibility of stealing aggro while in DPS mode.

Not sure about bracers slot as claw set is amazing DPS but perhaps being lucky enough to slot tharnes on DT armor could work but then good luck equipping your AC armor in an "oh ****!" situation. Though maybe just breaking the claw set is the way to deal with the problem in the first place ...

[sirgog]

Well, i personally see it as dps due to one thing, The first person with the first hit gets aggression, Once you pull out that shield all DPS is lost from your character, its pretty rough to maintain aggression afterward, therefore it is DPS to keep as the Main tank of the raid...
Therefore, you see these casters DOT the big boss, and so of course they do not have any threat, yet they still are able to keep aggression the whole time due to their damage output.

Stalwarts can keep aggro easily with mediocre weapons. Their threat is incredible.

I've lost LoB aggro exactly once on my ungeared Stalwart, who was tanking using a shield with a debuff weapon (Cursespewing/Imp Cursespewing Addy of PG). The eSOS/eMariChain barbs couldn't pull aggro - it was only a Monk landing a bigger than usual Touch of Death that took it.

As long as your Stalwart has enough To-Hit, you'll be fine with threat.

[sirgog]

Cool, good conclusion:

1. AP are never useless as you're always there as backup or for utility uses (as you described).

2. It might be possible to fit 1 threat reduction item which should eliminate any possibility of stealing aggro while in DPS mode.

Not sure about bracers slot as claw set is amazing DPS but perhaps being lucky enough to slot tharnes on DT armor could work but then good luck equipping your AC armor in an "oh ****!" situation. Though maybe just breaking the claw set is the way to deal with the problem in the first place ...

Not breaking the Claw set when you aren't tanking and have excess threat issues is beyond stupid. It's up there with leaving Power Attack on when you miss on a 6 or manadumping then piking on a caster.

If you do use the Claw bracers, you probably do want an alternate source of Heavy Fortification, however. Getting thumped for 370 by Velah is not a good look.

[scottmike0]

Stalwarts can keep aggro easily with mediocre weapons. Their threat is incredible.

I've lost LoB aggro exactly once on my ungeared Stalwart, who was tanking using a shield with a debuff weapon (Cursespewing/Imp Cursespewing Addy of PG). The eSOS/eMariChain barbs couldn't pull aggro - it was only a Monk landing a bigger than usual Touch of Death that took it.

As long as your Stalwart has enough To-Hit, you'll be fine with threat.

but of course, you seem to me as you were attacking it during using a shield, while i see in most of my pugs, a shield tank just standing there blocking.
Just remember there is a difference in how you play your tank, to how others play their sword and board tank to
As to the OP, you can always have threat even without having threat on. therefore, DOS is not only subjective to tanking.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Not breaking the Claw set when you aren't tanking and have excess threat issues is beyond stupid. It's up there with leaving Power Attack on when you miss on a 6 or manadumping then piking on a caster.

If you do use the Claw bracers, you probably do want an alternate source of Heavy Fortification, however. Getting thumped for 370 by Velah is not a good look.

Obviously it is stupid to leave the claw set intact if you have threat issues but I think the point of this thread is about the best way to deal with the threat issues in the first place before being beyond stupid comes into play.

Alternate source of heavy fort is crucial if you want to break the claw set, but where does that go?

Is there a more ideal situation in which the claw set remains intact but threat mitigation is added? (like sovereign tharnes rune or another source of negative threat).

Or is the best strategy to just stay out of stance? (off the top of my head stance adds +6 strength but claw set adds +4 damage ... Much of a muchness from a pure DPS perspective (depends on fighting style)).

[sirgog]

but of course, you seem to me as you were attacking it during using a shield, while i see in most of my pugs, a shield tank just standing there blocking.
Just remember there is a difference in how you play your tank, to how others play their sword and board tank to
As to the OP, you can always have threat even without having threat on. therefore, DOS is not only subjective to tanking.

'Tanking' in sword-and-board without swinging the sword has not been a viable playstyle for a long, long time now, not since the U9 buffs to Intimidate totally broke that style.

[BrightAsh]

I'm in stance permanently, i like the HP, but especially the stat-boosts. I just grab a 2-hander (drop shield, thus minus 75% hate gen) and drop all hate gear, don't use intim (obvious no-brainer) or anything else that improves hate/aggro. If I still take aggro.... then the wrong person is tanking
So in endgame raids, i find it still very usefull.

In ordinary sidequests it is awesome. Grab aggro from all mobs and don't get hit because of AC. In epics... well you get the HP from stance and thats always a plus

[Cardtrick]

For managing threat while staying in stance, what about using the parasitic breastplate or fleshmaker's brigandine, slotted with Paranoia? The 50% threat reduction proc is one of the best sources of -threat in the game, and swapping out armor is generally going to be less of a DPS decrease than swapping out other gear.

[sirgog]

For managing threat while staying in stance, what about using the parasitic breastplate or fleshmaker's brigandine, slotted with Paranoia? The 50% threat reduction proc is one of the best sources of -threat in the game, and swapping out armor is generally going to be less of a DPS decrease than swapping out other gear.

That is a fantastic idea. That proc has basically 100% uptime correct?

[Cardtrick]

That is a fantastic idea. That proc has basically 100% uptime correct?

If you're hitting consistently, which a fighter certainly should be. It lasts 15 seconds and has a pretty high proc rate (5% or so). It will basically always be running, especially if using haste boost.

Plus, the Fleshmaker's is actually pretty decent armor, with the disintegrate proc and healing amp. It's not something a well-geared player would want to wear all the time, but in the relatively rare situation of an SD/DOS not wanting aggro, it's a small sacrifice to basically allow full DPS without generating too much threat.

[wax_on_wax_off]

I think that the thread has been solved, great catch on the paranoia (not that this is the only answer but it was the only one outstanding).

[smithj_2020]

I kind of feel that if they are stealing hate...then they should be tanking really....but switch stances or take it off whatever....SD are awesome toons I think, I have one and he is almost completely geared out and ready for TR....He doesnt loads of damage attacks super fast, has 900+ hp and is a baddie...

[Tirisha]

Tanking isn't all about DPS. Tanking is more about managing aggro effectively with a character that can survive the attention. That =/= MOAR DPS.

To illustrate:
There are individual items that increase threat generated by 10, 15, 20%, but there aren't individual items that increase DPS by these amounts. So yes, equipping threat gen gear will usually cause a slight loss in overall DPS. But that slight loss will be outweighed by the fact that the mob THINKS your DPS has increased vastly.
So as far as the mob is concerned, your DPS is higher, not lower.
You don't have to have the highest DPS. You just need your target to think you do.

A combination of Threat gear, HealAmp gear and AC gear will do more for a tank than standard issue DPS gear will do.

agreed, Threat is not what defines a good tank.

Edit: a tank should only have to build in enough threat to hold aggro from reasonable dps/threat. 75% threat stance is not a reasonable build for a dps slot.

[sephiroth1084]

I kind of feel that if they are stealing hate...then they should be tanking really...

Hate does not equal tanking suitability. If the guy who should be tanking has much higher healing amp, AC and/or damage mitigation (Shield Mastery, Shadow Fade, etc...), then they may be a better choice for tank once aggro gets managed.

but of course, you seem to me as you were attacking it during using a shield, while i see in most of my pugs, a shield tank just standing there blocking.

Were they blocking the whole time, or just when it's appropriate (in LoB when he's doing a special attack or when you are severely Mournlands debuffed? in VoD when chained, or cursed and low on HP?).


If you're a SD or DOS and not tanking, give the tank more of a headstart than he says he needs, take off your threat gear and hold off on burst effects for a bit (smite, Haste Boost).