The "dc" caster Archmage or Palemaster

[Kinerd]

As has been mentioned, there is more to both PrEs than DC. Not yet mentioned are the free metamagics you can add to your AM CC SLAs, most notably Web. I assume you ask about Enchantment DC because you are at least somewhat interested in CC, and having a basically free SR-bypassing CC option is pretty sweet, especially on a first lifer.

[Viisari]

I'll just disagree with you on one thing. Obviously you can spend a lot of time "farming" certain items, but a +4 int tome or a +7 int item aren't *that* hard to get, considering the statement in the initial post:

Yeah this is tru...

but a +4 int tome

aren't *that* hard to get

BWAHAHAHAHAHA

<edit> Just to clarify claiming that getting any +4 tome (not to even speak of getting the specific one you want, that's even more difficult/lucky) would be easy or not difficult is pure lunacy. The fact that you have 2 +4 int tomes makes you one lucky bastard and nothing else. I've run a crapton of raids where they drop I've *seen* less than 5 +4 tomes drop much less get them to myself.

+4 tomes are pretty much the rarest lootz you can have in this game, maybe excluding Epic Ring of Spell Storing.

Unless you have one already, never ever plan them into your builds. Period.

You will not get one by simply grinding for it, you will get one if you're lucky.

Also, 3sp web is the best spell in the game for wizards

[Ushurak]

Yes, but getting that docent of the diabolist isn't the trick.
Getting the base item isn't bad. Getting a scroll shouldn't be out of bounds either.
Getting a shard/seal/scroll all together is the hard part.

I've farmed maybe 50? epic tokens all together. Granted, that's a drop in the bucket for some. But from all those epic quests run.. (Maybe 100?? total on 2 different guys) I have yet to complete one single epic item. One. (I'm not counting the CC epic item. That to me IS an easy acquisition.)

So while some could argue that these are relatively easy to get and/or farm, I disagree.
Easy is being able to run a quest a few times and getting what you want. Epic item farming is not easy in my book, but that opinion may change if I ever actually get to make some epic gear.

I think I will agree on this issue. I have ran my share of epics and have not made one epic item. Even with the recent trade bug I could not manage to get one complete Arcane epic item. A plus 4 int tome is a matter of running 20 ToDs and you have a great chance of getting it. That doesn't qualify a +4 int tome as easy to grind...it's just easier than probably ANY epic item out there.

[Nospheratus]

Unless you have one already, never ever plan them into your builds. Period.

You will not get one by simply grinding for it, you will get one if you're lucky.

Ok. I guess putting a +7 INT item and a +4 INT tome in the same rarity category was obviously an oversight!

For what's worth, i'v seen more +4 INT tomes than of any other kind.

[MattiG]

Sorry to be a bit late to the party, but as a first life wf pm, I figured I'd chime in.

First of all, for a pm, count yugos. Im always running an INT yugo at least.

Tymn sits at 42 necro, 41 enchant.
If I need the extra DC or am cc'ing primarily with webs, I'll put on diabolist bringing totals to 43 necro and 42 enchant. (boon proc on armor swap still broken).

This includes a +3 tome and litany. Ship buffed, lich form, yugo'd INT =47 with docent of shadow, 48 with diabolist.

[Viisari]

First of all, for a pm, count yugos. Im always running an INT yugo at least.

Second of all, count yugos for AM too. 50-75% fort is a minor nuisance, nothing else. If it gets you killed or even in danger then you're doing it wrong.

[Faent]

Second of all, count yugos for AM too. 50-75% fort is a minor nuisance, nothing else. If it gets you killed or even in danger then you're doing it wrong.

Yep. Add to this fact that an Archmage should be a Warforged, and you're looking at 75% Fortification if you choose to run without Omniscience. With Omniscience, you're back at a totally unnecessary 100% Fort (unless you're tanking, of course---in which case you go run VoD and get the ring).

My Warforged Archmage uses Yugo pots 100% of the time, without Omniscience, and never has a problem. It's simply false that a Pale Master is effectively +1 DC above an Archmage because of Fortification reasons.

[Tinco]

Enchantment AM's (primary or secondary) basically get a free +3 DC on enchantment spells with the 'weakened mind' debuff from the Hypnotism SLA, which I highly recommend for AM's. For Enchantment DC's in "gaming reality" there's no contest. PM's are much sturdier though and their big necro DC's are unmatched paired with that.

[Viisari]

Enchantment AM's (primary or secondary) basically get a free +3 DC on enchantment spells with the 'weakened mind' debuff from the Hypnotism SLA, which I highly recommend for AM's. For Enchantment DC's in "gaming reality" there's no contest. PM's are much sturdier though and their big necro DC's are unmatched paired with that.

I prefer conjuration for awesome webs myself. I liked hypno a lot more when it basically neutralized a room for over 30 seconds with just 1sp Dance SLA is pretty decent too.

AM's and PM's have identical necro DC, and while fleshie AM's can be very sturdy (my human AM is ~540hp buffed) they can go wf and drop one dc vs. PM (who'll very likely be either drow or human, if they're wf then the dc is same again) to gain very powerful burst heals and the same or higher hp.

[MRMechMan]

getting the shard/seal of the docent of the diabolist is pretty easy, and the scroll costs like, 1.5 reds. Its not too too bad. (you just need 40 dc before stepping into eChrono in the first place)

staff of the petitioner is kinda hard to get, but on Khyber it's run pretty often, so i got mine with relative ease

ToD ring is suuuuuuuper easy compared to the others, ToD is run really often, and getting a ring isnt hard when nobody wants an off class ing

+4 int tome is the hardest IMO, ive never gotten one :/, i have all the other twink gear besides shard of ring of spell storing

If you paid 1.5 reds for a diabolist scroll you made someone incredibly happy.

[Tinco]

I prefer conjuration for awesome webs myself. I liked hypno a lot more when it basically neutralized a room for over 30 seconds with just 1sp Dance SLA is pretty decent too.

Yes, Web SLA is a huge winner, too. Old Hypno as an SLA was completely over the top though and I prefer the new version.

AM's and PM's have identical necro DC,

Primary Necro AM's and PM's have identical necro DC's but primary necro AM basically is just a poor-man's PM.

and while fleshie AM's can be very sturdy (my human AM is ~540hp buffed)

That's cool but that's you being geared to the teeth and not a perk of being an AM. PM's are sturdier, they will always have 60HP more at cap and the lifeshield effect while in form plus aurahealing and the burst.

they can go wf and drop one dc vs. PM (who'll very likely be either drow or human, if they're wf then the dc is same again) to gain very powerful burst heals and the same or higher hp.

Nothing stops a WF from going PM though. WF is just the most valid way for AM's to compete in the self-sufficiency game.

To sum it up, the only valid power-related reasons at the moment to ever consider AM are the Hypno and the Web SLA's. I repeat myself from other threads but I still think the current implementation of the PM is a concept that completely got out of hand and was nothing but a desperate attempt to fight the huge design mistake allowing WF arcanes to use reconstruct.

[voodoogroves]

Of course this was only useful if you can avoid the Light - I remember my first "Sun Burn" as a 12th level Vamp 521 points of damage - How does a Level 12 Wizard Survive that hit? At Level 20 I can take that kind of hit once.

At level 20 in the appropriate quests it's gonna hit you for around 1k ;-)

[stille_nacht]

If you paid 1.5 reds for a diabolist scroll you made someone incredibly happy.

1.5 LDS, my bad :P.

+4 int tome is above and beyond all the other junk.
+3 tod ring is pretty easy to acquire.

personally i go drow specifically because i can't get (+4 tome) max even int on a human, and meh, 420 base health is fine with me.