The "dc" caster Archmage or Palemaster

[Ushurak]

I hate it when calculations start getting screwy in my head so I decided to come here and ask for help.
I need help in calculating maximum sustainable dc in Enchant & Necro for a 1st life Warforged Pale Master & Arch Mage.
I am currently level 15 and want to know what I am facing at cap.

I don't want this to become a PM vs AM thread. Please stick with empirical date.
I will list below what I have or will have at cap which should set the parameters for your calculations. I will not and do not want to include the "you need to be extremely lucky" type items for calculation purposes.

Keep in mind that the race in all of these calculations is going to be 1st life, capped Warforged.

I need calculations for:
Lich form Necro/Enchant dc.
Vamp form Necro/Enchant dc.

Arch Mage Necro/Enchant dc. (Factor in as many Spell masteries and secondary sm as possible).

Factor in:
Xoriat shard (already have it)
Balyshera's Necro version scepter (already have it banked)
Green steel +9 int item ((+6 int/+1 exceptional int/+2 exceptional int) will have it)
Max starting int
All level up stats going into int
+2 stat tome (already ate it)
+3 int enhancement (already have them)
Wizard capstone

If you would like to add a pseudo-easy to grind item that will stack with current dc/int please feel free. (Yugo pots don't count).

-1 rep to anyone posting that I should have rolled one of the lesser races (ie. fleshie).

Also, after doing these calculations, if you would like to give the calculations for the highest dc calculated and add 3 past lives of bard to it that would be fine as well.

[glowbug]

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=289779

not much more to be said

[wax_on_wax_off]

I can think of something to say.

[DrNuegebauer]

Here is a comparison for you, all other things being equal:

If you go "Necro spec" as an AM, then you'll be able to pick up +2 DC to Necro school through enhancements.

The comparison here is Lich form - in which case you'll have +2 DC to Necro (by going into form). The bonus here is that you are gaining +2 int and so are gaining +1DC to every other school. They archmage would only get +1 to one other school.

In Vampire form, the Enchant DC is equal, but the AM has the advantage in the 'secondary school'.


So theoretically they are even on a 'max' necro DC basis - but the PM comes out ahead because of the bonus to all other schools. The SECOND advantage in being a PM is that you can be constantly running a Yugo pot without fear of getting critted - so practically speaking it's an extra +1DC there as well (to all schools).

[Ushurak]

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=289779

not much more to be said

Very good link...tyvm.

According to this (if I'm right) I should be able achieve a sustained 44 Necro & 43 Enchant on 1st life as a Warforged if the only hard to obtain item I use in my calculations is the LoD. I'm pleased with this.

[Simplesimon1979]

I'd like to see your break down that let's you hit 44 dc.

With. Your gear listed

18 starting INT
5 level ups
9 GS item
3 enchanments
2 capstone
2 lich
2 ship buff
2 tome
43 total

Dc
16 INT
10 base
2 item
2 GSF
1 lich
9 spell lvl
40 dc

Wondering were you got the other 4 dc from

[stille_nacht]

I'd like to see your break down that let's you hit 44 dc.

With. Your gear listed

18 starting INT
5 level ups
9 GS item
3 enhancements
2 capstone
2 lich
2 ship buff
2 tome
43 total

Dc
16 INT
10 base
2 item
2 GSF
1 lich
9 spell lvl
40 dc

Wondering were you got the other 4 dc from

i assume by "9 gs item" you mean exceptional bonus + normal bonus (better on ToD ring)

he can get 2 more dc from litany + (+3) tome + epic robe of the diabolist
1 from the yugoloth pot (+2 int)

unsure where he is getting the last DC

[Partydeluxe]

It should probably be noted that although PMs can self-heal just fine at cap, they cannot repair themselves. If you went WF that semi-automatically means you are better off finishing this life as an AM and leave PM open for a second life as a drow.

Also, afaik the spellsinger buff (+1 to DC) still doesn't work on PMs so if you have one of those in your party the AM comes out slightly better.


PS.

-1 rep to anyone posting that I should have rolled one of the lesser races (ie. fleshie).

You dont have enough Rep to give out neg-rep

[Simplesimon1979]

Ah don't go drow. Go human get that extra feat for you past life. Plus it easy to round out any odd stats. Think half-elf gets the samething but never messed with it.

And yeah the OP said he was making an INT item with the full exceptional. Going for the ring myslef but no luck yet.

[Nospheratus]

EDIT: ah, you want warforged... Seems like i forgot that small detail... I'll leave it here anyway


18 base
5 lvls
7 item
3 exceptional(+1 and +2)
4 enhancements (3 wizard int, 1 human int)
1 litany
4 tome
2 capstone
---------------
44 INT

2 ship buff
--------------
46 INT

gives +18 to spell DCs

DC:
10 base
18 INT
9 spell level (heighten is always on)
1 spell focus (feat)
1 greater spell focus (feat)
2 Archmage Spell Mastery I and II OR lich form (+1 dc and +2 int I believe)
2 item
1 Past life
-----------------
44

DC 44 on the spells of your specialization (be it pale master or archmage)

...advantage in being a PM is that you can be constantly running a Yugo pot without fear of getting critted...

^ This for easy play.

[danotmano1998]

18 base
5 lvls
6 item
3 enhancements (wizard)
2 tome
2 capstone
---------------
36 INT

2 ship buff
--------------
38 INT

gives +14 to spell DCs

DC:
10 base
14 INT
9 spell level (heighten is always on)
1 spell focus (feat)
1 greater spell focus (feat)
2 Archmage Spell Mastery I and II OR lich form (+1 dc and +2 int I believe)
2 item
-----------------
39

...And these are actual real numbers that don't count on getting a litany, exceptional ToD stuff, +4 tomes, or +7 stat items, which the majority of casual players will never see. These numbers also don't count super short buffs nor cookies, etc..

[Enoach]

With Race, Gear, enhancements (except for PrE specific), Feats and Buffs (short and longer) the same:

Both SF: Necromancy Feats are Taken
PM vs AM (Necromancy Primary Focus) - Their DCs will be the same
PM vs AM (Necromancy Secondary Focus) - The PM will have a +1 over the AM

Both SF: Enchantment Feats are Taken
PM vs AM (Enchantment Primary Focus) - The AM will have a +1 over PM Lich and Same DC of PM Vampire
PM vs AM (Enchantment Secondary Focus) - AM will have Same DC as PM Lich and PM Vampire will be +1 over the AM

Both SF: All other Schools
PM vs AM (Primary Focus) - The AM will have a +1 over PM Lich
PM vs AM (Secondary Focus) - Their DCs will be the same

================================================== ======================
Advantage for AM is they are not limited to Necromancy as one of their Focus Schools

Advantage for PM is that they will be +1 DC over AM in all Non-Focus Schools, but only while in Lich form

While Yugoloth Potions are not limited to PMs - AMs have to weigh the disadvantage of -50% fortification. So a PM could raise all of their DCs by +1 more than an AM choosing not to use Yugoloth Potions.

[Ushurak]

I'd like to see your break down that let's you hit 44 dc.

With. Your gear listed

18 starting INT
5 level ups
9 GS item
3 enchanments
2 capstone
2 lich
2 ship buff
2 tome
43 total

Dc
16 INT
10 base
2 item
2 GSF
1 lich
9 spell lvl
40 dc

Wondering were you got the other 4 dc from

Aha...my mistake...and that is why I asked for some help...I thought 12 is where pluses started so I obviously started my calculations at 12 and added 1 for every even number thereafter...my bad.

[Ushurak]

It should probably be noted that although PMs can self-heal just fine at cap, they cannot repair themselves. If you went WF that semi-automatically means you are better off finishing this life as an AM and leave PM open for a second life as a drow.

Also, afaik the spellsinger buff (+1 to DC) still doesn't work on PMs so if you have one of those in your party the AM comes out slightly better.


PS.

You dont have enough Rep to give out neg-rep

It was a rhetorical statement only...I wouldn't actually neg rep for that...although I know some Warforged that would

Thanks for the advice on the spells singer buff though...I have pre-reqs for either one so that could make a difference. Haven't hit level 18 to try lich...need 2 more bubbles as of this post to get there.

[Ushurak]

With Race, Gear, enhancements (except for PrE specific), Feats and Buffs (short and longer) the same:

Both SF: Necromancy Feats are Taken
PM vs AM (Necromancy Primary Focus) - Their DCs will be the same
PM vs AM (Necromancy Secondary Focus) - The PM will have a +1 over the AM

Both SF: Enchantment Feats are Taken
PM vs AM (Enchantment Primary Focus) - The AM will have a +1 over PM Lich and Same DC of PM Vampire
PM vs AM (Enchantment Secondary Focus) - AM will have Same DC as PM Lich and PM Vampire will be +1 over the AM

Both SF: All other Schools
PM vs AM (Primary Focus) - The AM will have a +1 over PM Lich
PM vs AM (Secondary Focus) - Their DCs will be the same

================================================== ======================
Advantage for AM is they are not limited to Necromancy as one of their Focus Schools

Advantage for PM is that they will be +1 DC over AM in all Non-Focus Schools, but only while in Lich form

While Yugoloth Potions are not limited to PMs - AMs have to weigh the disadvantage of -50% fortification. So a PM could raise all of their DCs by +1 more than an AM choosing not to use Yugoloth Potions.

I think this post is more definitive than the actual numbers (though the numbers count).
Didn't realize this is what I wanted to see but it was.
It seems from this that with the exception of secondary focus vampire form that AM has the advantage over PM.

After playing Vamp form and finding out quickly why everyone screams don't go vamp...THE LIGHT BURNS...its still a bad choice even with higher DCs. Vamps drop dead just by flipping the light switch.

So my decision really comes down to "Am I comfortable with making the choice of no Yugo pot or 50% fort loss." or "Get Yugo pot and stay in Lich form no matter what to keep the +1 dc advantage if the equally equipped AM is running pots." Choices, choices, choices.

[Ushurak]

REALLY?!...someone neg-repped me for simply asking for help on DC calculations....WOW...I know I have had neg rep in the past but that shouldn't set a primary basis for arbitrary neg repping.

Oh well!! I guess no good deed goes unpunished and no help given goes unpaid for...I guess I paid the help I received on this with reputation. ;D

[Enoach]

I think this post is more definitive than the actual numbers (though the numbers count).
Didn't realize this is what I wanted to see but it was.
It seems from this that with the exception of secondary focus vampire form that AM has the advantage over PM.

After playing Vamp form and finding out quickly why everyone screams don't go vamp...THE LIGHT BURNS...its still a bad choice even with higher DCs. Vamps drop dead just by flipping the light switch.

So my decision really comes down to "Am I comfortable with making the choice of no Yugo pot or 50% fort loss." or "Get Yugo pot and stay in Lich form no matter what to keep the +1 dc advantage if the equally equipped AM is running pots." Choices, choices, choices.

Your welcome - The problem that usually arises is a comparison against not just two different PrE's but two different builds and gear sets and other permutations. Your trying to decide which PrE to take assuming all else is equal. Its best to work with the delta not the whole numbers.

Of my limited time playing with Vampire form I found only two situations where it was an advantage
1) When a +1 UMD Mattered
2) When a +1 over Lich form Enchantment Mattered.

Of course this was only useful if you can avoid the Light - I remember my first "Sun Burn" as a 12th level Vamp 521 points of damage - How does a Level 12 Wizard Survive that hit? At Level 20 I can take that kind of hit once.

[Nospheratus]

...And these are actual real numbers that don't count on getting a litany, exceptional ToD stuff, +4 tomes, or +7 stat items, which the majority of casual players will never see. These numbers also don't count super short buffs nor cookies, etc..

I'll just disagree with you on one thing. Obviously you can spend a lot of time "farming" certain items, but a +4 int tome or a +7 int item aren't *that* hard to get, considering the statement in the initial post:

If you would like to add a pseudo-easy to grind item that will stack with current dc/int please feel free. (Yugo pots don't count).

I myself got 2 +4 INT tomes on different toons, and i'm not a dedicated "tome farmer". The +7 item that is relatively easy to get is the robe/docent of the diabolist, or the robe of the illusionist (but this one doesn't fit this toon since it's wf). There are probably other +7 items out there as well that aren't that hard to get.

I wouldn't call these items easy to get, you need some luck and some persistence.

[danotmano1998]

I'll just disagree with you on one thing. Obviously you can spend a lot of time "farming" certain items, but a +4 int tome or a +7 int item aren't *that* hard to get, considering the statement in the initial post:


I myself got 2 +4 INT tomes on different toons, and i'm not a dedicated "tome farmer". The +7 item that is relatively easy to get is the robe/docent of the diabolist, or the robe of the illusionist (but this one doesn't fit this toon since it's wf). There are probably other +7 items out there as well that aren't that hard to get.

I wouldn't call these items easy to get, you need some luck and some persistence.

Yes, but getting that docent of the diabolist isn't the trick.
Getting the base item isn't bad. Getting a scroll shouldn't be out of bounds either.
Getting a shard/seal/scroll all together is the hard part.

I've farmed maybe 50? epic tokens all together. Granted, that's a drop in the bucket for some. But from all those epic quests run.. (Maybe 100?? total on 2 different guys) I have yet to complete one single epic item. One. (I'm not counting the CC epic item. That to me IS an easy acquisition.)

So while some could argue that these are relatively easy to get and/or farm, I disagree.
Easy is being able to run a quest a few times and getting what you want. Epic item farming is not easy in my book, but that opinion may change if I ever actually get to make some epic gear.

[stille_nacht]

getting the shard/seal of the docent of the diabolist is pretty easy, and the scroll costs like, 1.5 reds. Its not too too bad. (you just need 40 dc before stepping into eChrono in the first place)

staff of the petitioner is kinda hard to get, but on Khyber it's run pretty often, so i got mine with relative ease

ToD ring is suuuuuuuper easy compared to the others, ToD is run really often, and getting a ring isnt hard when nobody wants an off class ing

+4 int tome is the hardest IMO, ive never gotten one :/, i have all the other twink gear besides shard of ring of spell storing