Must make a WF Bard

[Olds-cool]

I've read a lot of builds out there. I know that there aren't necessarily a lot of synergies with Warforged and Bard but that's the role I've drawn in a 6-man WF group. We want the songs and buffs to augment the rest of the party.

Since CHA is out the window I am accepting that Warchanter is the way to go. I don't, however, think a WF pure bard would be fun to play. I'd like to toughen it up to contribute to DPS most of the time. Given that I've been looking at the 18/2, 18/1/1, and various 16/4 and 16/2/2 type splits.

Keep in mind this if for a static TR group so I'm working off of 34 points. Also, we will have an AC based IntTank which is why I've chosen my capped ranger as the previous life. Normally I'd probably choose my fighter for the to-hit and tactical DCs but with bonus feats from cross-classing I think I'd take the Ranger Past-Life Dilettante to get the +5 Barkskin to contribute to our tank when really needed (Lailat, Sally, HoX, etc.)

I'm posting where I'm at right now with the build and looking for pointers as far as class split, when to take the cross classes, best spells given the amount I'll have, feats, etc. I feel like it's a pretty solid build where it is at now but since I've got a few months before I have to pull the trigger would like to hear what others have to say. I have additional questions after the build.

Again, this is for an ALL WARFORGED TR static group so don't derail and tell me I need to be Helf, Human, Dwarf, or Thri-Kreen. If you can help me strengthen this build so that I am strong as can be for the party with end-game/epic/raids in there for when we cap I will be your best friend forever (and a day).

Level 20 Neutral Warforged
(2 Fighter / 2 Barbarian / 16 Bard)
Hit Points: 362 (482)
Spell Points: 495 (543)

BAB: 16/16/21/26/26
Fortitude: 20
Reflex: 12
Will: 12

STATS

              Starting    Feat/Enhancement 
Abilities    Base Stats    Modified Stats 
(34 Point)    (Level 1)      (Level 20) 
Strength           18                26 (32)
Dexterity           8                10 (15)
Constitution       18                22 (28)
Intelligence       10                12 (20)
Wisdom              6                 8 (14)
Charisma           12                14 (20)

Tomes Used
+2 Supreme Tome used at level 7

SKILLS

              Starting      Feat/Enhancement 
             Base Skills  Modified Skills 
Skills       (Level 1)      (Level 20) 
Balance            3              22 (39)
Concentration      8              29 (48)
Jump               5              14 (32)
Move Silently      3              22 (24)
Perform            5              24 (42)
Spot               -1             9  (32)
Use Magic Device   5              28 (34)

Notable Equipment (Already have or easily attainable)
Green Steel HP/ConOp Goggles
Epic Treasure Hunter's Spyglass
Spectral Gloves
Epic Cloak of Night
Minos Legens
Dragontouched Docent (Healing Amp + Guard)
Wise Necklace of Performing
Health Belt of Greater False Life
Ogre Power Bracers
Clever Ring of Steady Spellcasting
Feather Falling Boots of Springing
Charismatic Ring of Balance

Feats in order (considering fighter at 2&3 and Barbarian at 9&20)
1st lvl - Past Life: Ranger
1st lvl - (Selected) Toughness
2nd lvl - (Fighter Bonus) Power Attack
3rd lvl - (Selected) Two Handed Fighting
3rd lvl - (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
@6 (Selected) Extend Spell
@9 (Selected) Past Life: Warrior of the Wild
@12 (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
@15 (Selected) Improved Two Handed Fighting
@18 (Selected) Skill Focus: Use Magic Device

Spells
Level 1: Detect Secret Doors, Expeditious Retreat, Focusing Chant, Feather Fall, Grease
Level 2: Blur, Glitterdust, Rage, Invisibility
Level 3: Displacement, Remove Curse, Haste, Good Hope
Level 4: Otto's Sphere of Dancing, Cure Critical Wounds, Dimension Door, Freedom of Movement
Level 5: Greater Heroism, Greater Dispel Magic, Mind Fog, Mass Suggestion
Level 6: Otto's Irresistible Dance, Mass Cure Moderate Wounds

Enhancements
Fighter Attack Boost I
Fighter Strength I
Fighter Toughness I
Barbarian Sprint Boost I
Barbarian Power Attack I
Barbarian Extend Rage I
Barbarian Extra Rage I
Barbarian Constitution I
Bard Inspired Attack III
Bard Inspired Bravery III
Bard Inspired Damage III
Bard Lingering Song III
Bard Warchanter II
Bard Energy of the Music II
Bard Wand and Scroll Mastery III
Bard Song Magic II
Racial Toughness III
Warforged Constitution I
Warforged Power Attack I
Warforged Healer's Friend II
Warforged Damage Reduction II
Warforged Great Weapon Aptitude II


Okay, so the numbers in Lime Green represent what they'd be with the gear listed equipped. These aren't max numbers by any means... just standing.

My questions
1. Level split... why do builds take a 2nd level of Barbarian? Is uncanny Dodge and the extra HP's better than the extra spells I'd get at the next level of bard? I do see that Barbarian Constitution is only attainable at level 2 which saves APs (don't have to get WF Con for double the APs).

2. Level order... assuming I stick with 16/2/2 I went for the quickest path to Warchanter II. The first barbarian level was taken at 9 to get my mini-rages in there. Is there a more optimal order considering a full static party?

3. Feat selection... any arguments? The THF line isn't really even necessary. My main melee job will be helping with the trash and keeping us Haste/Raged. The glancing blows damage at 40% seems like plenty to me and the WF Weap. Apt lines will help with random effects. Am I missing anything?

4. Spell selection - I've never take a bard past 13 levels yet so I'm not 100% on what's expected of a non-CC bard. FoM when needed will come from me or our FvS... Hero's feast I could scroll. Are mind fog and mass suggest helpful with my lack of CHA? Even if to weaken trash mobs?

5. Do WF and Barbarian Power Attack I stack? In my current tank build I take overlapping levels of Armor Mastery (Dwarven and Fighter) and they stack to boost my AC. Is this the same for tiers of PA? I think two low cost tiers of PA enhancements counteracted with my songs and Fighter Attack Boost should give me a little more bang for my buck when I'm critting trash.

I think that's it. Please feel free to comment even if it's to tell me that Gunga created the build

[Olds-cool]

Edited for omissions and grammar.

[tkneip1874]

i have a dw bard16/ftr2/rog2 that i have alot of fun playing. it is similar to this build so i will share some of my thought and opinions and let you decide what works and what doesn't...

1. keep in mind with barbarian when raging can't cast spells.

2. ranger chosen past life seems like a waste. not 100% what all it gives but i think is only barkskin. ac on this toon probably wont matter

3. you probably will not need sf umd although that is personal preferance. my advice instead of ranger past life and sf umd would be gr thf and perhaps another toughness or maybe even insightful reflexes. (i am a big fan of that feat as i like characters with skills)

4. the following spells probably will not work well with the low cha... glitterdust, otto's spere, mind fog, mass suggestion. would recommend skipping them although you can try and swap out if don't work well. (perhaps take other cure spells and maybe take empower healing feat)

5. for enhancements you probably will not need fighter attack boost. haste boost would be better i think (or barb damage boost but i think haste is better)

these are just some opinions i have based on my experience if have. your mileage may vary. most important part is to enjoy character...

[unbongwah]

First off, check out Genghis Khan if you haven't already.

1. Level split... why do builds take a 2nd level of Barbarian? Is uncanny Dodge and the extra HP's better than the extra spells I'd get at the next level of bard?

Bards don't have the greatest spell list if you're not heal- and/or CC-specced, IMHO; so bard 17 adds very little to this build. Right now the only reason to go bard 18 is the hope third-tier PrEs will be added within your char's lifetime. Barb 2's not so great either, but it does add Uncanny Dodge, +1 CON enh, and Extra Rage I enh (for 3 Rages total on your WC).

3. Feat selection... any arguments?

When it comes to THF chain, my view is all-or-none.

5. Do WF and Barbarian Power Attack I stack?

Yes. In general, class & racial abilities will always stack.

[Olds-cool]

Thanks for the replies...

1. keep in mind with barbarian when raging can't cast spells.

2. ranger chosen past life seems like a waste. not 100% what all it gives but i think is only barkskin. ac on this toon probably wont matter

For #1... understood. I would buff and sing for the most part. I'd use the two or three mini-rages for mopping up. We would have 3-4 other characters in the all WF party that could cast repair or reconstruct spells. I figure the mini rages would help in some situations.

For #2 I would be getting this specifically to help support our tanks. We would have an Evasion/AC tank in the group and no rangers. The ability to top off their AC against the few tankable bosses seems like a good idea. Are barkskin +5 pots available somewhere?

4. the following spells probably will not work well with the low cha... glitterdust, otto's spere, mind fog, mass suggestion. would recommend skipping them although you can try and swap out if don't work well. (perhaps take other cure spells and maybe take empower healing feat)

5. for enhancements you probably will not need fighter attack boost. haste boost would be better i think (or barb damage boost but i think haste is better)

I've never used glitterdust but was told it's useful. I will say that on my current 12/4 bard/fighter who also started with a 12 CHA (but currently sits at 19 with regular buffs) my disco balls do hit some trash. The highest level content I've run is Vale quests and maybe Delerium/Acid Wit and it certainly catches some melee trash so I don't think it would be discounted. So if the other spells you mention have the same requirements then I don't know if I agree. I'll have to try it and see.

As for SF: UMD, I like to be as close to no fail without gear swapping and casting as possible. I always run the Lockania quest on new character creation so the swap will be there if I need it.

[Olds-cool]

Another question...

Does the Barbarian DR/1 stack with WF DR Enhancements? If I take WF DR 1 after my Barbarian 2nd level will I have an effective DR/2?

[Galeria]

Just FYI- love glitterdust.

I continue to be amazed at what can be blinded by glitterdust. Blinded creatures take a bunch of negatives and are much easier to kill, then add any sneak attack damage that others in the party can add.

DR of the same type generally does not stack and when you have different types of DR, only the highest one applies.

[Olds-cool]

Good to know on the Glitter... I'll keep it and try it out on higher level content to see if my CHA is landing it.


On DR... WF is listed as 1/adam and Barb is listed as 1/- to all unarmed, weapon, or natural attacks...

So I'm guessing that this will not equal out to DR/2?

[unbongwah]

Does the Barbarian DR/1 stack with WF DR Enhancements?

No. Nor will either DR stack with Ironskin Chant, Stoneskin, DR items (i.e., adamantine armor, Invulnerability, etc.), or anything else on this build. AFAIK, the only WF-specific DR which stacks is Adamantine Body, the Improved DR enhs, and the FvS LoB DR capstone.

[jeremyt]

I prefer 2 rogue over 2 barb, BUT dont discount the 10% run speed and sprint boost access.

That said if you decide to stick with barb instead of rogue levels I would take the first barb level at 2. No reason to run slow and deal without sprint boost when your going to acquire it at later levels anyways.

Rogue is more DPS, traps skills and evasion. Your reflex save will be junk, but you will be suprised at how much damage evasion still mitigates from AOE spells. Traps, you will still get dinged in though.

[Cardtrick]

1. Level split... why do builds take a 2nd level of Barbarian? Is uncanny Dodge and the extra HP's better than the extra spells I'd get at the next level of bard? I do see that Barbarian Constitution is only attainable at level 2 which saves APs (don't have to get WF Con for double the APs).

A much more common build is 16 bard/2 fighter/2 rogue. In that split, it's an easy question -- 2 rogue gets you evasion, one of the most powerful abilities in the game. Plus, to have any hope of decent trap skills, a second rogue level in the mid levels is very useful. For the record -- this is a very powerful and fun build, and might be worth considering (although a lot of its advantages come from versatility, which is less important with a static group)

For a barbarian split, the first level gives a lot (well, mainly the run speed, but that's a lot right there!). The second is much lower payout, but it's a question of what you're giving up. The answer is: pretty much nothing. Level 17 of bard just doesn't give much. No special abilities, only a couple extra spells (and no new spell levels), no new enhancements . . . it doesn't even give a BAB or save boost. Replacing that 17th level with a level of almost anything else is going to be an improvement.

Also, you mentioned not having to get WF Con -- but you can actually get both. Racial enhancements stack with class enhancements, as a general rule (although class enhancements don't stack with other class enhancements). So you can (and probably should) take both warforged Con and barbarian Con.

2. Level order... assuming I stick with 16/2/2 I went for the quickest path to Warchanter II. The first barbarian level was taken at 9 to get my mini-rages in there. Is there a more optimal order considering a full static party?

That's fine. If you decide to swap the barb levels to rogue levels, though, be sure to take rogue at the first level. If sticking with barbarian, I'd personally take the first level early (in the first 3 levels) just because I'm a huge fan of the run speed, but your way is fine too.

3. Feat selection... any arguments? The THF line isn't really even necessary. My main melee job will be helping with the trash and keeping us Haste/Raged. The glancing blows damage at 40% seems like plenty to me and the WF Weap. Apt lines will help with random effects. Am I missing anything?

Strong disagreement here! If you're going THF, go all the way. And with two fighter bonus feats, and limited casting utility, you have no excuse not to. The big reason is that, unlike TWF, the THF line doesn't provide equal improvement at each tier. Instead, the third tier is the big payout -- it gives you glancing blows on 3 out of your 4 attacks in a chain, instead of the usual 2 out of 4, in addition to increasing glancing blow procs to 50%. It's a great DPS boost if you can afford it, which you can. If you've never done much with THF weapons, keep in mind that it's not just a bonus to damage against groups, like you might think -- you also get your glancing blow damage against your primary target. An additional 50% of your base damage on 3 out of 4 swings is a huge increase.

4. Spell selection - I've never take a bard past 13 levels yet so I'm not 100% on what's expected of a non-CC bard. FoM when needed will come from me or our FvS... Hero's feast I could scroll. Are mind fog and mass suggest helpful with my lack of CHA? Even if to weaken trash mobs?

Mind fog may be useful in combination with other enchantment spells (Disco Ball, basically). Mass suggestion isn't a great spell even for pure caster bards -- skip it.

3rd level spells are tight, but even though Remove Curse is sometimes useful (less if you're all warforged), I would still drop it. Crushing Despair is a great spell. It gives a -5 to will saves even when they succeed in their save against it. That's like 10 extra points of Charisma when it comes to your disco balls. If you want to do any spell-based CC (glitterdust, disco balls) at higher levels, you're going to be reliant on debuffs -- Crushing Despair and Mind Fog will be important to you if you go this route.

I would strongly suggest dropping one of your level 5 spells in favor of shadow walk -- it's an incredibly useful self-buff in a lot of situations. Either Mass Suggestion or Greater Dispel is very dispensable.

5. Do WF and Barbarian Power Attack I stack?

They do indeed. The description actually even says so, which is a bit surprising: "Power Attack does additional 1 bonus damage and -1 to hit. Stacks with the Barbarian Power Attack enhancement line."

On DR... WF is listed as 1/adam and Barb is listed as 1/- to all unarmed, weapon, or natural attacks...

So I'm guessing that this will not equal out to DR/2?

Unless it specifically states otherwise, DR doesn't stack. Your only source of appreciable DR on this build is going to be from equipment or UMDing Stoneskin scrolls (or your ironskin chant -- DR 5/- isn't a lot, but it helps).

Other thoughts:

If you're against rogue levels, and not totally set on the barbarian speed, consider going for a 16/4 build. You'd get one more bonus feat out of the 4th fighter level, which would get you GTHF without having to drop Extend (painful on a bard) or your Ranger past life (which you seem attached to). That would also let you take 2 tiers of Fighter Toughness and Haste Boost. I think it's a stronger choice than 2 barbarian levels.

[Olds-cool]

@Cardtrick...

Thanks for the additional info... especially on the spells.

I'm pretty well married to the 16/2/2 splash right now but I'm considering the Rogue splash as well since it doesn't effect my feats. I guess I'm just wondering if the extra sneak DPS and evasion would outweigh the mini-rages, speed boost, and extra HPs of the barb.

As far as GTHF goes I always hit Lockania right away so the swap will be ready. If our tanker doesn't seem to need the barkskin +5 to tank Lailat or Sally then it should be an easy switch although I should probably push that feat to level 15 or so to make sure I have the BAB necessary for GTHF.

[Olds-cool]

Here's an example of a rogue based build. The numbers in parenthesis are what the items listed would give. There are still potential bumps via items, spells, ship buffs, etc. I don't quite understand why but this seemed to open up the fourth level of Racial Toughness which netted me more HPs in the end.

Level 20 True Neutral Warforged
(2 Fighter \ 2 Rogue \ 16 Bard) 
Hit Points: 360 (515)
Spell Points: 520 (768)
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 17
Reflex: 16
Will: 12

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(34 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             18                    26 (32)
Dexterity             8                    10 (26)
Constitution         18                    22 (28)
Intelligence         10                    12 (20)
Wisdom                6                     8 (14)
Charisma             12                    16 (22)

+2 Supreme Tome used at level 7


                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance               3                    23 (41)
Bluff                 5                    18 (21)
Concentration         6                    29 (51)
Jump                  4                    12 (32)
Move Silently         3                    23 (41)
Perform               n/a                  26 (44)
Spot                  2                     8 (31)
Use Magic Device      5                    29 (35)

Notable Equipment (have or easy to get)
Minos Legens
Shintao Cord
Epic Treasure Hunter's Spyglass
Bard's Cloak
Ogre Power Belt of Balance
Superior Devotion IV Ring of the Archmagi
Greater Devotion VI Ring of Elvenkind
Dexterous Boots of Springing
Enchantment Bracers
Dragontouched Docent (Intelligence, GFL - for build)
Supreme Tyrant Green Steel Goggles of Existential Stalemate (ConOp HP)
Spectral Gloves

Planned Spell list
Level 1: Detect Secret Doors, Expeditious Retreat, Focusing Chant, Feather Fall, Hypnotism
Level 2: Blur, Glitterdust, Rage, Invisibility
Level 3: Displacement, Crushing Despair, Haste, Good Hope
Level 4: Otto's Sphere of Dancing, Cure Critical Wounds, Dimension Door, Freedom of Movement
Level 5: Greater Heroism, Crushing Despair, Mind Fog, Mass Suggestion
Level 6: Otto's Irresistible Dance, Mass Cure Moderate Wounds 

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Ranger
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 2 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons


Level 3 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Power Attack
Feat: (Selected) Two Handed Fighting


Level 4-6 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell


Level 7-9 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Skill Focus: Use Magic Device


Level 10 (Rogue)


Level 11-12 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons


Level 13-15 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Handed Fighting


Level 16-18 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Handed Fighting


Level 19-20 (Bard)


Enhancements
Rogue Haste Boost I
Rogue Skill Boost I
Bard Inspired Attack III
Bard Inspired Bravery III
Bard Inspired Damage III
Bard Lingering Song III
Bard Warchanter II
Racial Toughness IV
Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy I
Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
Bard Song Magic II
Bard Energy of the Music I
Bard Charisma II
Fighter Strength I
Fighter Toughness I
Bard Wand and Scroll Mastery II
Warforged Constitution II
Warforged Healer's Friend I
Warforged Power Attack II
Warforged Great Weapon Aptitude II

So the big question, is this a better option? With **** reflex saves anyhow does the addition of Evasion make this more survivable? Is the extra 1d6+2 (enhancement) sneak damage put it over the top?

And before anyone mentions the lack of trap skills I'll remind you that this is for a static group that will already have an pure artificer and a full improved evasion trap/tank build. In the skills I was going more for stealth to help with epics like claw (Invis + MS = solo) and to lay down the Fascinates.

[JeisonBlade]

If my maths is right, you're taking Improved Critical too early (prereq BAB +8, at level 12 its only +7) so you'd have to swap IC and ITHF around

edit: also when you factor in all the bonuses to saves youd get from songs and spells and items and buffs, it should be enough to allow you to evade most aoe spell effects, but likely not be able to waltz through traps. But if you have a dedicated trapper in the party then you'll still benefit plenty from it. Theres nothing like being able to take a fireball to the face and keep on smilin'

[Olds-cool]

It has also been brought to my attention that the docent from the Madness chain can have +10 reflex added to it so that could make up for an additional 5 points of reflex (beyond a normal +5 item).

The only thing I can let deter me from the 16/2/2 now is the timing of our TRs, the speed at which we level, and the release of the enhancement updates. I may have to take 18 levels of bard to get the third tier of Warchanter if it's worth it.

-Olds

[Olds-cool]

If my maths is right, you're taking Improved Critical too early (prereq BAB +8, at level 12 its only +7) so you'd have to swap IC and ITHF around

According to the planner my BAB at 12 is 9. Not saying that you're wrong but one of you is

Remember that at 12 I have 2 fighter and 2 rogue levels.

[JeisonBlade]

According to the planner my BAB at 12 is 9. Not saying that you're wrong but one of you is

Remember that at 12 I have 2 fighter and 2 rogue levels.

nah you're right, i was off; i use a spreadsheet to plan my builds and when I was playing with this build and shuffling some stuff around one of the formulas got fuxxored during copy/paste, user error lol

Ya the Fleshmakers docent with a reflex upgrade would be really nice, since it includes built in healing amp. Its one of my favorite higher level armors, tho i'd be hard pressed to give up my displacement guard upgrade, that's saved my shiny metal arse i dunno how many times.

I really like this build, I tweaked it a lil bit for my own personal style (enhancements and a few spells primarily), gonna reroll a mule into this and give it a try, been itchin to try a bard.

[scottmike0]

Well, The build is great just remove the past life ranger, since the bark skin is self only
although, this bark skin thing is only on (in game)

[Olds-cool]

The build is great just remove the past life ranger, since the bark skin is self only

I do believe you are wrong unless the wiki is...

You recall more about your past life as a ranger. You have +2 to your Spot skill and can produce a Barkskin effect three times per rest. (Activate this ranger ability to toughen the skin of an ally, giving a +2 natural armor bonus to AC with an additional +1 bonus for every 3 caster levels above 3rd, to a maximum of +5 at caster level 12th.)