Help me explain to my guildies why dumping Con is bad

[Boombastic]

Several of my guildies seem to think con isnt that important if you're a caster, and that a 6-10 con is fine if youre a caster.....they also think toughness is a terrible feat and mental toughness is the bomb......

[TheDearLeader]

I loled.

Toughness and Con are horrible - they mean you might live.

Your guildies do plan on piking through quests as soul stones, right?

[Boombastic]

I loled.

Toughness and Con are horrible - they mean you might live.

Your guildies do plan on piking through quests as soul stones, right?

no they're serious, and since we're a small guild, we arent all on at the same time so its usually solo or small group >.< my lvl 6 wizard has more hp than our lvl 12 wizard....

[Adrian99]

If you've ever played any RPG in any format, on any console, at any time of human history, the single most important statistic for determining your survival has always been hit points. I don't fully understand all of the variables that play into it, but for whatever reason this has always been the case, and DDO is no exception. So yes, you want Con, Toughness, Improved/Greater False Life, whatever you can possibly do to get more hit points without gimping your character. When you die, it's always because you have -10 HP or less.

[Standal]

People who think this are had to break out of it. Particularly if it's a guild situation. Because they probably try to run together, they don't get exposed to strong characters and may just think that the game is hard and failing is standard.

If you can get them exposed to a stronger player in the same class at the same level you have a shot. When all your sorc kills is 10% XP while the other one burns the dungeon down, you might get an "A-ha!" moment.

[Boombastic]

If you've ever played any RPG in any format, on any console, at any time of human history, the single most important statistic for determining your survival has always been hit points. I don't fully understand all of the variables that play into it, but for whatever reason this has always been the case, and DDO is no exception. So yes, you want Con, Toughness, Improved/Greater False Life, whatever you can possibly do to get more hit points without gimping your character. When you die, it's always because you have -10 HP or less.

I tried explaining that to him. the main offender is my RL DM. in pnp its easier and safer to dump con, but in this game, its a hack and slash basically. but he dumped con.....in favor of dex......

[Arakasia]

Yeah i had the same thing happen with a friend of mine that wouldn't take the toughness feat or the enhancements on his fighter, saying it would screw up his TWF ability, he runs into fights with usually his 2 vorpal bastard swords thinking that these will carry the day all the time, at 12th lvl my pale mage in wraith form had more HP than his fighter did, which was a pain in the ****. because I was usually in the combat rather than casting pretty much(not saying thats a bad thing though, I enjoy meleeing as much as anyone does) but then I play a lot more than he does.. it took me until we hit threnal/or sorrowdusk till he got the message that without toughness and finally fortification that he was going to be a backpack ornament until he fixed it..

try explaining to them about the enhancement lines which give another 10hp everytime they take it and then explain the little benefit of the mental toughness feat, its good ..don't get me wrong but characters need to be rounded as well, besdies if they are in the pale mage line, they will need toughness feat for the real prestige stuff..

hope this helps

[TheDearLeader]

I suppose you could show them my Sorcerer doing an Epic Chronoscope speed run?

I ended up, without particularly planning to, tanking the Conjoined Abishai Devastator. Couldn't manage that without high HP, thanks to points into Con, Toughness, and much much more.

[Enoach]

What Level Range are we working with?

If they are above 16 it will be harder to convince them that HP are important because many think they have already done it all...

However, take them into quests with lots of environmental type damage - Shroud/Vale Blades, Amrath Blades, DQ Raid Blades. Some cases you can't TELL them, you have to Show them.

Reason I suggest this, is that these areas you can't wallflower. Either they will learn to move FAST or learn that the 160 HP on a Level 20 just isn't enough.

Prior to the Spell Pass when Power Word Stun only worked if you had Less then 300 HP, I used this to prove to a buddy of mine that it didn't matter how many Spell Points he had or how powerful his Fireball was, I could disable him and then kill him without him getting one shot in... After a couple rounds in an Arena he changed his mind and found a way to get above 300 HP on his Drow Sorcerer build.

Now, arguably Toughness on a Caster Class such as Wizard/Sorcerer that would only have access to two Racial Enhancements could argue that 42 HP is not a lot at CAP - The question should be - for a single Feat and 3 AP's what other combo could you get more out of?

[sirgog]

When your guild hands you lemons, find a new guild?

Unless these people are RL friends, I recommend it. There are quite a number of guilds that get a reputation as 'not worth taking into any content that is even moderately challenging'.

[cdbd3rd]

I tried explaining that to him. the main offender is my RL DM. ......

Give it up, you're skrewed.
Never p*** off your DM, even when you're right. We know where the Giant Ants are kept.

[Aashrym]

Find out what they are using the build points for instead and why, then you might have room to debate the benefits of 142 more hit points or so.

I had a guildie who insisted the same thing and died constantly to one shots in necro 2 at 9th level. He eventually quit because of the 'min max' nature of the game.

Also, if those players don't actually plan on raiding, running epics or hard content, and are more into role-play then they might be just fine dumping CON. I've had a lot of fun running gimp builds with gimp groups intentionally just for the flavor of the character over actual effectiveness.

[Captain_Wizbang]

Boomer thats EASY!!!!!!

Get a new guild. (just sayin)




And CD said it all, NEVER **** off the DM

[Psiandron]

Yeah, probably best not to **** off the DM. Maybe just best to wait it out and let him see the error of his ways for himself. Sometimes people need to learn that way. I know that I can be prone to that.

[PNellesen]

Ok, so low HP is one thing... but they DO understand the importance of Heavy Fortification, right?

Right?

[TheDearLeader]

Ok, so low HP is one thing... but they DO understand the importance of Heavy Fortification, right?

Right?

Even with Heavy Fortification, 6~8 Con won't be getting them far.

They'll likely be having issues with non-melee damage, such as spell damage, trap damage, and Fortitude-Based Saves (since CON is the modifier), like Finger/Disintegrate.

[sephiroth1084]

Explain to him how, in DDO, traps can hit you for 400 damage on elite at higher levels. That monsters routinely toss out 250 point fireballs on normal in some endgame quests.

Point out that we don't have touch AC or touch attacks in DDO, so investing in Dex on a wizard is almost worthless, and then point out that Insightful Reflexes is an excellent feat, and that it means Dex is completely worthless on a wizard.

Ask him how often he dies in quests, and point out that DDO is kind of skewed toward pushing people to gain more HP, that at level 12, less than 150 HP is something of a death sentence in a lot of places, and it would be reasonable to expect casters to be able to hit 200 at that level, and that at level 20, less than 300 HP is a death sentence in a lot of content, and that less than 400 is considered to be extremely squishy.

All of that said, if he plays well, and isn't dying, I wouldn't worry about it too much (he should still forget Dex and take Insightful Reflexes)--I was running endgame content on my drow wizard with 280 HP at level 20, and doing well. Still, more HP means more room for error, fewer deaths and a generally much better gaming experience for you and your party. Sometimes you just can't avoid taking 300 damage here and there.

[Boombastic]

Give it up, you're skrewed.
Never p*** off your DM, even when you're right. We know where the Giant Ants are kept.

Oh I make a habit of ******** on his carefully laid plans He's become a better, if more sadistic, DM b/c of my shenanigans.

The level range at the moment is 6-12 area. its a little guild of RL friends and some of their friends. Like we do elite mode stuff when enough people are on, it just seems that they took the glass cannon idea of wizards too seriously.

Just last night said DM tried to tell me "how AMAZING" Mental Toughness is, yet I just dropped it on my FvS build b/c I have zero issues managing my SP. Granted, I am just Healbotting until I get to blade barrier, but that is besides the point.

I am going to try show him the error of his ways when I get my PM to his wizards level, and dueling him, killing him with 2 maximized magic missiles, or something similar, b/c hes got like 60 hp at lvl 9. My PM has 89 at lvl 6. I had a barbarian alt that had more hp than his wizard, at lvl 1 or 2.

We don't even do the whole RP aspect, which is good, I just cant get into RPing in an mmo, call me strange. I will be posting this thread on our guild page though haha

[sephiroth1084]

Even with Heavy Fortification, 6~8 Con won't be getting them far.

They'll likely be having issues with non-melee damage, such as spell damage, trap damage, and Fortitude-Based Saves (since CON is the modifier), like Finger/Disintegrate.

Oh yeah, I forgot about the days where if someone with Disintegrate shot me, I was dead, guaranteed. More Con and more HP means not dying to Disintegrate!

[Postumus]

Several of my guildies seem to think con isnt that important if you're a caster, and that a 6-10 con is fine if youre a caster.....they also think toughness is a terrible feat and mental toughness is the bomb......

Personally I'd do nothing. You've already discussed it with them. If they disagree with you about the importance of CON and toughness, they'll eventually reach a level of content that is too difficult or frustrating for them to complete.

Sure a wise man learns from the mistakes of others, but sometimes you just have to learn on your own. If constant backpack rides and quest failures don't make them question what is wrong with their builds, then nothing you say will probably influence them either.