Can someone explain the importance of the arti capstone?

[cave_diver]

Looking into building a 34-point H-elf arti with the rogue Dilli, and I am trying to wrap my head around why everyone is telling me that the arti capstone is oh so important.....I just don't get it. So if someone can explain it to me it would be awesome

The way I look at it, a pure 20 arti gets capstone (which i don't understand) since I figure ill be running around firing all the time so wont really have time to make use of it, and it doesn't stack with the arti wondrous items or affect scrolls

vs.


An 18/2 Arti/Monk gets 2 extra feats (for me most likely 2 X toughness) & evasion which in my opinion is pretty awesome at 20 when you (another word for annoyed) off some casters and other stuff.

I am being serious here I really don't understand the capstone....the only use of it I see is if I wanted it for convenience clickies to last longer

[cdbd3rd]

...


An 18/2 Arti/Monk gets 2 extra feats (for me most likely 2 X toughness) & evasion which in my opinion is pretty awesome at 20 when you (another word for annoyed) off some casters and other stuff.

I am being serious here I really don't understand the capstone....the only use of it I see is if I wanted

Is just player's choice.
Some folks are going to like being able to cast any scroll/wand/clickie at caster level 20. Others are gonna enjoy Evasion.

Wouldn't stress it. You see your options, and are running with the one you like. You win.

[Failedlegend]

While I do agree that /2Monk is a fair trade off (Its why I went with it) the capstone is quite powerful...theres quite a few popular clickies,pots & wands that become epic when casting them as a Lvl 20 Caster (as opposed to just +5) ie. Barkskin +3 pots become +4 for a Arty with +5 CL to pots but an Arty w/ the capstone bumps it up to +5 or any of those SP Regainers

Although I'm sure someone else has an actual cohesive list of Arty Must Haves

[karl_k0ch]

The capstone has two effects, both of which affect items which have uses of a spell, i.e. clickies, such as Brawn's Spirits or Winter's Wrath.

The first effect is that the caster level is increased from the stated value (5 and 8, for these examples) to your caster level, which is 20. This has two results: The duration of the spell, if it's a continuous buff, is substantially increased and if it is a damaging spell, it can deal more damage. In the examples, the rage lasts 3 minutes (instead of 1 minute 30), and the snowball swarm will deal 5d3 + 15 (instead of 2d3 + 6).

The second effect is that the DCs are raised, making it harder to resist hostile effects from clickies for mobs. For instance, a Bard's Cloak's Greater Command is much more likely to be successful when used by a capstoned artificer than by anyone else.

Imho, the capstone offers a great measure of utility to artificers, especially for buff clickies. Any Haste or Displacement clicky will last for 2 minutes, any rage will last for 3 minutes. Any Resist Energy will last 20 minutes. Moreover, the Ring of Spell storing will replenish 105 SP per use. But I agree, it's a tough call vs. Evasion and one extra feat (since you'll lose the lvl 20 bonus feat).

[cave_diver]

Cool...I'm pretty sure I get it now...much appreciated.

I guess it a question of flavor. I can see the appeal of the capstone now, though I will probably still go 18/2.


Now to craft my rad2 repeater for leveling

[gloopygloop]

There are also a few neat little tricks with clickies that you wouldn't think of as having caster level.

Hound charm stones, Ring of Spell Storing and a couple of other clickies work better with the Artificer capstone. Hound in particular is easier with the longer duration and with the Augment Summoning that many Artificers have.

[dunklezhan]

Scorching ray clickie on Hellfire Xbow. Awwww yeah.

[Gorbadoc]

The way I look at it, a pure 20 arti gets capstone (which i don't understand) since I figure ill be running around firing all the time so wont really have time to make use of it,

This summarizes why you don't see the appeal. You're thinking of an artificer as, first and foremost, a pew-pew DPS class.

I think of artificers as, first and foremost, a versatile support class. Even if the class spends 80% of its combat time unloading ranged DPS, the artificer is defined by its ability to do a huge variety of other stuff on a moment's notice.

The artificer capstone invites creativity. You can claim other classes' abilities as your own, provided there's a wand or clicky for that ability. Artificer Knowledge already did this somewhat. Arcane Empowerment just seems like the devs' way of saying, "Yeah, at level 20, you do need the full casting stat bonus for offensive wands to be remotely useful." That, and "Okay, fine, you can function like a full BAB class for more than a minute at a time."

These things may not appeal to you, and that's okay. My point is that, as a class, artificer should already appeal to people who love versatility, and the capstone just increases that appeal.

[Cardtrick]

This summarizes why you don't see the appeal. You're thinking of an artificer as, first and foremost, a pew-pew DPS class.

In addition to Gorbadoc's point, even when treating artificer as a DPS class, there's a lot of value in divine favor/divine power clickies for the BAB of a level 20 fighter with stacking +3 to hit/damage (like the active paladin past life feat, that many people TR and then spend a whole feat on).

[Jaid314]

divine power, divine favor, jump, haste, rage, good hope, heroism/greater heroism, neutralize poison, cure/heal/repair items/clickies, bless, stat buffs (for hirelings, pets, and summons), displacement/blur... really, take a look some time at the many low-level spells that come in clicky form which you could buff with. stoneskin clickies exist as well, deathward... really, almost anything you can get in a wand, clicky, etc tends to get a lot more useful for you.

offensively, in easier content some of the gear will work too (33 DC on a resistible dance is kinda weak, but in eCarnival quests it can actually be relevant for example. or a crushing despair clicky that can debuff targets...).

it just gives you a lot of versatility. evasion is nice too, no question. but having a good reflex save is nice even without evasion.

but also, there's the simple fact that levels in artificer are fairly desirable in the first place. more high level slots to fill with useful infusions (one 4th, one 5th, two 6th). more damage from your rune arm and a couple of spells (not blade barrier, but prismatic strike iirc caps at 20). a bonus feat that is likely to be more useful than the 2 monk feats you would get (likely the second one will be toughness, and artificers have lots of feats already unless they're going for crafting bot). good skill points and skill access. +125 spell points. duration on buffs.

additionally, and this can be pretty big, retain essence only works on rods, staves, and wands. when you're a capstoned artificer, that also includes clickies and such. for a fairly "standard" artificer with, say, 36 intelligence (very attainable imo), plus capstone, you're looking at a 33% chance to retain essence successfully. so, for example, where a level 18 artificer with a 3-haste clicky will get 48 seconds x 3, a capstone artificer will get 2 minutes x 3, with a good chance of having a 4th clicky available. a level 18 artificer will get 45 SP x 3 from a spell storing ring, a capstone artificer will get at least 375 SP after 3 clicks, with a good chance of another 125 SP for a total of 150 (note: other clickies also gain the retain essence chance, although the SP restored does not increase directly). more charges from an eardweller is another possibility, for example (making their blade barriers even *more* powerful).

[Failedlegend]

divine power, divine favor, jump, haste, rage, good hope, heroism/greater heroism, neutralize poison, cure/heal/repair items/clickies, bless, stat buffs (for hirelings, pets, and summons), displacement/blur... really, take a look some time at the many low-level spells that come in clicky form which you could buff with. stoneskin clickies exist as well, deathward... really, almost anything you can get in a wand, clicky, etc tends to get a lot more useful for you.

offensively, in easier content some of the gear will work too (33 DC on a resistible dance is kinda weak, but in eCarnival quests it can actually be relevant for example. or a crushing despair clicky that can debuff targets...).

it just gives you a lot of versatility. evasion is nice too, no question. but having a good reflex save is nice even without evasion.

but also, there's the simple fact that levels in artificer are fairly desirable in the first place. more high level slots to fill with useful infusions (one 4th, one 5th, two 6th). more damage from your rune arm and a couple of spells (not blade barrier, but prismatic strike iirc caps at 20). a bonus feat that is likely to be more useful than the 2 monk feats you would get (likely the second one will be toughness, and artificers have lots of feats already unless they're going for crafting bot). good skill points and skill access. +125 spell points. duration on buffs.

additionally, and this can be pretty big, retain essence only works on rods, staves, and wands. when you're a capstoned artificer, that also includes clickies and such. for a fairly "standard" artificer with, say, 36 intelligence (very attainable imo), plus capstone, you're looking at a 33% chance to retain essence successfully. so, for example, where a level 18 artificer with a 3-haste clicky will get 48 seconds x 3, a capstone artificer will get 2 minutes x 3, with a good chance of having a 4th clicky available. a level 18 artificer will get 45 SP x 3 from a spell storing ring, a capstone artificer will get at least 375 SP after 3 clicks, with a good chance of another 125 SP for a total of 150 (note: other clickies also gain the retain essence chance, although the SP restored does not increase directly). more charges from an eardweller is another possibility, for example (making their blade barriers even *more* powerful).

Dammit Jaid I was finally set on my Arty18/Monk2 Build now I have no idea which to go with...too bad rogue dilly doesn't grant evasion eh...that would be WAY too OP though

[Jaid314]

heh, well, now you know why people think the arti capstone is quite good

[Failedlegend]

heh, well, now you know why people think the arti capstone is quite good

My only iffiness about it is I don't usually spend much time @ 20 since I embraced TRing (Ran out of slots to roll new alts) and honestly I've never played a character without evasion for very long before I'm scared to not have it...also its hard to give up my possibility of 65-70+ AC...debating whether If I roll a Pure Half-Elf w/ Monk Dilly for +5 Wis AC as my 18/2 would only have at MOST +9 (+1 from dodge as well) allowing for 60-65+ AC self buffed with good gear.

[Darkrok]

Honestly just the divine power/favor thing is enough from my perspective. At a duration of 2:24 a piece you can buff up before fights and have it running most of the time. Clickies are level 11 for an 18 arti so they'd be 1:30 instead. Almost a minute less per click and while you can obviously get more clickies you have to find the time to use them. The difference in how often you have to hit them is critical and the effect that has, especially in epics where an effective +7 to hit is a huge deal (+4 for the extra BaB from DP, +3 for Divine Favor), would be enough to argue for the capstone.

Haste is basically the same idea. Clickies would cast at level 9 for an 18 arti which is 54 seconds. Capstone = 2 minutes. Rage is 1:54 versus 3 minutes. These are pretty important spells and the arti can legitimately take over casting them with a couple 5-charge clickies of each (especially if the caster in the group dumped Extend which is far from uncommon).

I will say that juggling the item cooldown on the clickies can be hard. Trying to mix in some wands/scrolls (both since they're on different cooldowns) can help alleviate that. I still like using mainly clickies but I do find that I have to skeleton buff when in a group as people don't want to wait an extra minute for me to finish my buffs. I'll often try to hop in to the quest a minute or two before the rest of the group so I can get those all out of the way and get my full buff complement before we start.

Everyone's covered this stuff already but really it's just a ton of little things...a TON of them...that make the capstone amazing. 200 point stoneskin wands, master transmuter staff hitting for 300+ disintegrates, you name it, the capstone will never stop surprising you.

[cave_diver]

This summarizes why you don't see the appeal. You're thinking of an artificer as, first and foremost, a pew-pew DPS class.

I think of artificers as, first and foremost, a versatile support class. Even if the class spends 80% of its combat time unloading ranged DPS, the artificer is defined by its ability to do a huge variety of other stuff on a moment's notice.

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You nailed me on this one Gorbadoc, but surprisingly one of the reasons I was originally thinking of a 2 monk splash was to be able to survive while being able to do stuff on a moments notice (e.g. raise the hjealer)...

divine power, divine favor, jump, haste, rage, good hope, heroism/greater heroism, neutralize poison, cure/heal/repair items/clickies, bless, stat buffs (for hirelings, pets, and summons), displacement/blur... really, take a look some time at the many low-level spells that come in clicky form which you could buff with. stoneskin clickies exist as well, deathward... really, almost anything you can get in a wand, clicky, etc tends to get a lot more useful for you.

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Dammit Jaid I was finally set on my Arty18/Monk2 Build now I have no idea which to go with...too bad rogue dilly doesn't grant evasion eh...that would be WAY too OP though

^^THIS^^ ( I may end up trying a pure capped arti 1st)

Again...thanks for helping me see the light

[Jaid314]

to those worried about not having evasion: evasion is great, it really is (on a char with a good reflex save). but simply having a good reflex save is also great. you'd be surprised how tough you are with a decent amount of hit points in traps when you can fairly reliably make the save, especially when you have protection and resist up vs elemental stuff, and stoneskin vs physical stuff (force can still be a problem, but again... reflex for half is better than you probably think it is).

sometimes taking literally zero damage is important. much more often, taking a small enough amount of damage that it has negligible effect is sufficient.

[Deathdefy]

Evasion's also less important than you'd think for an artificer in that you get to just run off or outright avoid a lot of damage. e.g. cometfalls. You'll usually know you have aggro, and when you see that crazy look in the malefic seer's eyes... you just run, ideally not toward the cleric, and outright dodge it.

Of course evasion has other benefits, but that's one that being a purely-ranged damage class helps out a lot with.

Similarly if you're far enough back on e.g. Garos, his delayed blast fireballs don't hit you at all, same with Arraetrikos with his meteor swarms unless he's actually shooting at you. You develop a feel for what's 'just in Point Blank Shot' range, and just out of 'hit by blasts at the melees' range.

Chain Lightning still sucks, as do trap heavy quests you're not very familiar with - looking at you epic Chains of Flame.

[FuzzyDuck81]

to those worried about not having evasion: evasion is great, it really is (on a char with a good reflex save). but simply having a good reflex save is also great. you'd be surprised how tough you are with a decent amount of hit points in traps when you can fairly reliably make the save, especially when you have protection and resist up vs elemental stuff, and stoneskin vs physical stuff (force can still be a problem, but again... reflex for half is better than you probably think it is).

sometimes taking literally zero damage is important. much more often, taking a small enough amount of damage that it has negligible effect is sufficient.

Well said
In addition, in situations where you're expecting to need your reflex saves like traps you have to pass through for box (rather than stand in), or are expecting incoming fireballs etc. don't forget radiant shield to help with physical damage & fireshield scrolls.

[Gorbadoc]

You nailed me on this one Gorbadoc, but surprisingly one of the reasons I was originally thinking of a 2 monk splash was to be able to survive while being able to do stuff on a moments notice (e.g. raise the hjealer)...

Again...thanks for helping me see the light

Well, your original plan wasn't necessarily crazy. A lot of ability takes the form of yes/no questions:

• Can you heal others between fights? (Y/N)
• Can you solo heal (insert benchmark quest or raid)? (Y/N)
• Can you raise dead reliably? (Y/N)
• Can you consistently survive (insert benchmark trap, spell, or other hazard)? (Y/N)
• Can you tank (insert raid boss)? (Y/N)
• Can you maintain Greater Heroism on yourself? (Y/N)

Things like that. If the answer to a question is "no", you simply don't attempt to do it. It's not part of your play style.

The artificer capstone lets you answer "yes" to a lot of little questions where, 90% of the time, someone else in the party can also say "yes". That's the great thing about versatility, though: You fill in for whatever class the party lacks or for whichever party member dies.

So, really, you have a choice of play style. Do you want your play style to include the bullet points added by the artificer capstone, or do you want your play style to include the bullet points added by Evasion?

Oh, and you're welcome.

[Blank_Zero]

I'm quite honestly surprised no one has mentioned my favorite part of the Arty capstone...


Phantasmal Killer Wands. Retain Essence + Arty Capstone = MASS DEATH!