Is there any reason to play a cleric instead of a favored soul?

[MRMechMan]

As someone who has capped both cleric and fvs on the same character with very similar gear, here are some thoughts...

What do clerics get that fvs do NOT?

Advantage #1 Clerics get more spells at each level

Rebuttal: At no spell level are the fewer spells of a fvs a major issue. There just aren't THAT many good spells. Only issues are lvl 9 (3 of implosion/true res/energy drain/mass heal), level 8 (3 of holy aura/mass cure crit/symbol of death/mass DW) level 6 (3 of BB/heal/cometfall/mass cure mod).

All other spell levels the 6 spells that clerics get is absolute overkill. Almost always end up slotting something that is never cast at all.

The strength of the cleric is versitility. Versitility is near useless as many divine spells are garbage.

Advantage #2 Radiant I and II are great sources of healing.

Rebuttal: They are. The aura is a nice way to keep people topped up during long quests, and the bursts are a great mass cure. However, burst healing is what is more important, and FVS are equally good at that. Mass heal is such an efficient way to heal that it's the best course of action in most cases, and fvs can do that for longer. There aren't THAT many quests at endgame where the aura shines. Most have shrines every 5-10min.

There are very few situations where a cleric is a much better healer than a fvs.

Advantage #3 Clerics can turn undead

Rebuttal: It's pretty useless at endgame. Where are all the undead? It's generally better to use turns to heal/burst the undead anyway.

Compared to what a FVS gets...

-capstone 10 DR
-3x 10 stacking energy resistance
-weapon enhancements
-+6 refex saves
-wings
-700+ odd sp
-capstone free searing light/cure light wounds
-up to 50% more divine punishment damage from AOV and -50% FORT. That is HUGE, particularly with the new boss fort. Bring a fvs, or the rogues are useless....
-+2 spell pen/DCs/to-hit on debuffed mobs
-lantern archon
-30% extra damage on untyped/fire/physical spells

...think I got everything?



Solutions?

Spells-Improve the weaker choices at each level to make the 4th, 5th and 6th options something that is somewhat decent. Give divines more than 5 choices for 9th level spells! Make fvs at least SOMEWHAT regret the lack of those spells slots. They ought to be trading SOMETHING-I know sorcs at least feel slightly less versitle than wizards. Fvs do not feel that way in the slightest.

Presige Classes-Finish Rad III and make the other two prestige classes at least sufficiently powerful to make AOV FvS go "hmmm, maybe..."

FvS SHOULD be more powerful than clerics as they are harder to unlock, but they should at least somewhat close...

I've probably ticked off a lot of clerics by posting this but anyone who has capped both a cleric and a fvs knows that they are barely compareable.

And I'm not looking for a fvs nerf either. People need more reasons to play divines.

Just SOME of those reasons should point towards cleric over fvs. Right now that isn't the case.

[Antheal]

If you think it's bad now, just wait until the Beacon of Hope FvS Prestige is released...

I, for one, can't wait!

[wax_on_wax_off]

Cleric is much more versatile when it comes to multiclassing.
Cleric is much easier to level up (easy to swap spells as appropriate, better spells sooner).
Cleric is much better vs undead (not turn but burst), not too relevant at end game except abbot/SoS but still useful while leveling.
Cleric gets more use out of wisdom (SP, DC, maximum caster level) while FvS are split.

I've not played a pure cleric yet (I'd like to but other builds first) but I love my splashed clerics (clonks mostly).

[maddmatt70]

FVS are overall better then clerics, but clerics do have some advantages. There are actually a number of quality spells - not a ton, but a number of spells such that a FVS has to make choices. The cleric capstone is actually pretty strong although it is much maligned on these forums because it is not very well understood. The capstone is nice in places like LOB raid for e.g.. The multi-classing as a cleric is easier to do. That is really about it. FVS are just about better in every other aspect of play other then1 or 2 damage points for the melee clerics sigh...

[morticianjohn]

I find the aura ticks to be far more valuable than you make them out to be. Let's use the example of epic velah (PRE U12 since I haven't done that one since and TR'd my cleric anyway). She attacked so slow that if there were 2 clerics with aura you would only have to cast mass heal half to 2/3 as much. Also top ups mid combat are frequently useful. A FvS can't justify a spell to heal 2-3 people for 25-50 HP but those HP may mean the difference between life and death when the enemy hits you with a cometfall. Epic laitat I can keep the party healed with aura and bursts alone except when she's swinging. Last time I was there we had her down to ~3% and she hit cometfall 3x the cleric aura saved us from a wipe as the 8 or so people still alive stood up with less than 100hp each.

I can't go over each situation where the cleric aura is superb but let's just say I miss it on my FvS. I know the silver flame capstone CLW can make up for not having aura in some cases but don't sweep this and the many other benefits to CLR aside. Wax on wax off mentioned the level up process and the ability to splash monk (IMHO better than a FvS). There are more spells that are situationally useful end game that is troublesome for a FvS.

[epopotamus]

Cleric is much more versatile when it comes to multiclassing.
Cleric is much easier to level up (easy to swap spells as appropriate, better spells sooner).
Cleric is much better vs undead (not turn but burst), not too relevant at end game except abbot/SoS but still useful while leveling.
Cleric gets more use out of wisdom (SP, DC, maximum caster level) while FvS are split.

I've not played a pure cleric yet (I'd like to but other builds first) but I love my splashed clerics (clonks mostly).

adding to the list

Cleric's are currently also the best group healers with aura/burst and the big mass heals (since they get +25% extra healing onto emp heals...and a lot of fvs's go more offensively specced and might not take emp heals at all)

With the current PrE's fvs are slightly more offensively focussed, while clr are more defensively focussed.
But they still play almost identical.

[MRMechMan]

Cleric is much more versatile when it comes to multiclassing.
Cleric is much easier to level up (easy to swap spells as appropriate, better spells sooner).
Cleric is much better vs undead (not turn but burst), not too relevant at end game except abbot/SoS but still useful while leveling.
Cleric gets more use out of wisdom (SP, DC, maximum caster level) while FvS are split.

I've not played a pure cleric yet (I'd like to but other builds first) but I love my splashed clerics (clonks mostly).

Clerics are more versitile to multiclass, I'll give you that. Splashing 2 for evasion means only 1 9th level spell on a fvs, which does hurt (I did that...energy drain or mass heal was a tough choice). 18cleric/2monk is much more forgiving.

I wouldn't say clerics are easier to level up. There are generally only 3 spells that are useful at each level. Sometimes less. You get heal and blade barrier a bit earlier, and implosion at level 17 on a pure cleric probably makes the vale quite fun. But that content isn't really an issue regardless.

Blade barrier6/destruction7/heal6/mass heal9/slay living5/implosion9/divine power4/divine favor1/nightshield1/resist energy2/divine punishment5/holy aura8/energy drain9/symbol of death8

are spells I cast in just about every quest

cometfall6/soundburst2/remove curse3/FOM4/DW4/raise5/res7/true res9/greater command5/magic circle3.

are spells I just about always keep slotted. Most spell levels on a cleric I have to fill the 5th and 6th slots with something that just about never gets cast. There just aren't that many good spells.

1st level=2
2nd level=2
3rd level=2
4th level=3
5th level=4
6th level=3
7th level=2
8th level=2
9th level=4

So the only issue if I switched to fvs right now would be dropping a single 9th level spell.

Clerics DO get more out of wisdom, but it's not really a huge advantage considering fvs only need to start with 10-12ish charisma to cast 9th level spells, get more SP anyway than cleric, and can achieve similar DCs of instakills via aura of menace.

I would miss the aura definitely and the % to empower heal sometimes-when running with undergeared warforged melee with very little amp or something.

As for the capstone, the char is question is a gimpy wf clonk atm so doesn't have it...I can see how it can be very useful in some situations. But I would much rather have the fvs capstone personally...not that I had that one either...

[erikbozelie]

ow joy. i am sorry, these topics just come and go every now and then. and i seem to have a habit of getting negative reputation for them.

as far as it comes to fvs to cleric comparisonA.

A cleric has the ability to splash, adding other classes features and abilities to its own while losing nothing important. a splashed favorite soul will lose a huge amount of abilities.

due to this inability to splash a fvs will lose to any specific cleric build.

here is the thread some while ago where we already discussed every single statement and broken it down.

conclusion:
if your a new player and don't know how to multiclass: go fvs, its a good average class and hard to screw up.
if your a veteran player and love multi classes: go cleric, takes more ability to get the build right but if you do, but cannot be beaten.

call me a disbeliever, but i have yet to see any fvs build that can even compare to the 2 specific cleric build posted as a challenge on that thread to this date. ( there used to be more then 225 posts in that thread, but due to allot of namecalling etc. thread got modified).

happy reading
zack

[Koowluh]

I would just like to add one advantage of the cleric over the Favored Soul, which is mostly important for new players: it's free.

Granted, the favored soul can be played too for free, but requires quite a bit of crunching on other toons first, while a cleric pops out of the box ready to be played.

Since the favored soul can be purchased, I always expect it to be a little better than the free alternative, the cleric. I don't expect Turbine to sell "hey, here's another cleric class guys." I do expect them to sell "hey, here's an uber cleric guys!"

The cleric is good for new players to get started on a healer/cleric. The Favored Soul is a good variation for the more advanced player or the player willing to pay some dough for it right at the start.

[arjiwan]

I have a level 20 Cleric as my main. I don't own an FVS. So I will definitely have bias in favor (pun not intended) of the Cleric Class. Here is my opinion:

For a pure level 20 Raid Healer Support / Offensive Caster perspective. Again, I am not saying of multiclassing for DPS or anything. The aim is pure offensive caster / Raid Healer.

FVS is way way stronger.

1. Spell change on the go
Quests are not varied that spell change is needed. All you need is Blade barrier. You can make it level 20 just using BB.

2. Stats
I've seen FVS that has dumped stat their SP stat (I don't know which), and still has more SP than me. Take note, I have Archmagi and even a 150 GS item. Maxxed my Wisdom on all stats and items. I even mistakenly took Mental Toughness becuase it is an old toon. Still the FVS who dump-stated the SP stat has more SP than me.

3. Damage on spells that matters a lot.
BB damage and I think DP damage. FVS > Cleric.

4. Aura and Burst
Yes, I really really like my Aura and bursts. But there are places that I can't use my aura or bursts.
Example is EADQ2. I need to be outside the group to avoid cometfalls. No aura and burst there. I rather have more sp for mass heals.

So why don't I play FVS? I love my gimp cleric, that's why.

[Hellllboy]

FvS Advantages:
H.P.
Capstone
Elemental resist
Weapon Proficiency (w/o use of a Turn)
Wings
Mana
Past Life

Cleric Advantages:
Healing, Healing, Healing
Capstone
Spell versititly
Single Stat based DC/Mana
Heavy Armor
Radiant Aura/Burst

*******************************
It all depends on what you want to do with the character-but you can argue both ways that they had pro's and con's.

Personally I play FvS, but I enjoy my Clerics too.

[Candela90]

I prefer very much to platy my FvS, BUT i really miss 2 things on my fvs:
1. Aura, but only when we play by beholders. U can still use bursts with antimagic (at least from what i was told from my cleric friend).
2. I only miss 2 slots. 1 eight and 1 nine level spell.


BUT.
I would never exchange my mana and resists for more spell slots (where only 2-3 are usefull, others are just not beeing used) and AC, that is hardly working.
I mean for scroll farm, long term healing i prefer FvS.

FvS get better dmg with spells, and clerics get stronger healing (their empwoer is prettty cheap with enhanc.). Th problem is I dont even use empower healing or anything on my heals and can heal epics... I prefer to do bettr dmg than overheal (and overhealing seems to me as a mana loss).

But for mutliclass cleric is better. Still Id nevr multiclass cleric or FvS. Theyre too good to multiclass. Maybe some days ago clonk seemed good for me. But as i prefer FvS it would be a bad idea.

About dumping stat. My FvS always have low charisma at start. 10-12 or so. I mean 2 charisma points = 29 sp in end game ... and 2 wisdom points = 1 DC. Much more worthy for a caster. For a melee i think more its the same besides he/she will put more in str than in charisma.

[Habreno]

Put things this way. You look at builds and say" Hmmm... Favored Soul is better because of X, Y, Z and the Cleric has A and B, but neither is really that good.


Aura is awesome HoT, especially when you're doing a bunch of small healing. And it's available to Clerics regardless of race. The Favored soul equivilent, the CLW capstone, is single target that hits more then the aura does. But when the entire party is taking damage, the aura is more beneficial as it is an AoE HoT vs the CLW capstone (which is race and feat specific, mind you) as it is an AoE heal. Plus, the aura is available from level 12, while the capstone is only available at level 20.

Clerics can get 1 higher DC than a Favored Soul from WIS. Therefore, while your Favored Soul has a situationally "higher" DC than a Cleric, with the two together the Cleric will have more DC than the Soul.



I'll definitely post more in a bit. Just what I could think of in the lunch break I have.

[danotmano1998]

Clerics = Aura
Clerics = More spell choices


May as well argue that sorcerors are better than wizards or vise versa.
Matter of opinion and playstyle.

[Meat-Head]

Put things this way. You look at builds and say" Hmmm... Favored Soul is better because of X, Y, Z and the Cleric has A and B, but neither is really that good.


Aura is awesome HoT, especially when you're doing a bunch of small healing. And it's available to Clerics regardless of race. The Favored soul equivilent, the CLW capstone, is single target that hits more then the aura does. But when the entire party is taking damage, the aura is more beneficial as it is an AoE HoT vs the CLW capstone (which is race and feat specific, mind you) as it is an AoE heal. Plus, the aura is available from level 12, while the capstone is only available at level 20.

Clerics can get 1 higher DC than a Favored Soul from WIS. Therefore, while your Favored Soul has a situationally "higher" DC than a Cleric, with the two together the Cleric will have more DC than the Soul.



I'll definitely post more in a bit. Just what I could think of in the lunch break I have.

The aura is pretty big to me. I've been annoyed on my FVS how much i have use mana on myself that I wouldn't use on a cleric. Either that, or I buy heal scrolls to self heal. Annoying either way. For RAIDS I think healing fvs might edge out for the longer ones (eDragon, eChrono). For quests, I like clerics.

[GermanicusMaximus]

A cleric can generate an enormous amount of healing from the Radiant Servant aura if it is well constructed.

When my cleric solos, he seldom has to resort to casting a heal on himself, the aura carries the full load. That leaves my entire blue bar for offensive casting. Since the turns regenerate over time, that means I can solo almost indefinitely. When my cleric solos the SubT, he often stays down there until his Min2 falchion breaks from the wear.

In raids, the aura often has similiar applicability. In LoB, I park my cleric behind the boss while he is being tanked, right with the DPS melee. The aura is enough the heal the DPS melee, and hits the tank with enough healing that it reduces the load on the dedicated tank healer. At the end of the raid, I have enough spell points left to close out the raid. My heal scrolls are getting dusty.

When I start a raid with a FvS, he almost always has more spell points than I do. It usually doesn't take long before I have more than he does.

Of course, FvS are sold as the divine caster easy button. A lot of people buy FvS and believe thats all that it takes to be an uber divine caster. FvS are a lot less uber if you don't take the time to actually learn how to plan a divine caster.

I have FvS unlocked, thanks to my cleric. I will roll a FvS someday, but I really am not in any hurry to do so.

[Firesmall_at]

I keep thinking I want to do a favSoul because their prestige enhancements are for offensive spells. Cleric enhancements are for healing, and buffing.

What kills a Cleric are airship buffs. Before these Cleric spells and the amount of Cleric spells would be needed. After that hour of ship buffs runs out everyone hopes there is a Cleric in the party for the end fight to buff us. Without protections and resists the party will prob wipe.

Aside from all this I will take my Cleric for now with mana pots from the DDO store over the FavSoul simply because I am too lazy to lvl one just for the offensive spell enhancements.

And there are pugs that deserve to stay dead, but that hurts quest completion which would then be a waste of my time.

[goodspeed]

As someone who has capped both cleric and fvs on the same character with very similar gear, here are some thoughts...

What do clerics get that fvs do NOT?

Advantage #1 Clerics get more spells at each level

Rebuttal: At no spell level are the fewer spells of a fvs a major issue. There just aren't THAT many good spells. Only issues are lvl 9 (3 of implosion/true res/energy drain/mass heal), level 8 (3 of holy aura/mass cure crit/symbol of death/mass DW) level 6 (3 of BB/heal/cometfall/mass cure mod).

All other spell levels the 6 spells that clerics get is absolute overkill. Almost always end up slotting something that is never cast at all.

The strength of the cleric is versitility. Versitility is near useless as many divine spells are garbage.

Advantage #2 Radiant I and II are great sources of healing.

Rebuttal: They are. The aura is a nice way to keep people topped up during long quests, and the bursts are a great mass cure. However, burst healing is what is more important, and FVS are equally good at that. Mass heal is such an efficient way to heal that it's the best course of action in most cases, and fvs can do that for longer. There aren't THAT many quests at endgame where the aura shines. Most have shrines every 5-10min.

There are very few situations where a cleric is a much better healer than a fvs.

Advantage #3 Clerics can turn undead

Rebuttal: It's pretty useless at endgame. Where are all the undead? It's generally better to use turns to heal/burst the undead anyway.

Compared to what a FVS gets...

-capstone 10 DR
-3x 10 stacking energy resistance
-weapon enhancements
-+6 refex saves
-wings
-700+ odd sp
-capstone free searing light/cure light wounds
-up to 50% more divine punishment damage from AOV and -50% FORT. That is HUGE, particularly with the new boss fort. Bring a fvs, or the rogues are useless....
-+2 spell pen/DCs/to-hit on debuffed mobs
-lantern archon
-30% extra damage on untyped/fire/physical spells

...think I got everything?



Solutions?

Spells-Improve the weaker choices at each level to make the 4th, 5th and 6th options something that is somewhat decent. Give divines more than 5 choices for 9th level spells! Make fvs at least SOMEWHAT regret the lack of those spells slots. They ought to be trading SOMETHING-I know sorcs at least feel slightly less versitle than wizards. Fvs do not feel that way in the slightest.

Presige Classes-Finish Rad III and make the other two prestige classes at least sufficiently powerful to make AOV FvS go "hmmm, maybe..."

FvS SHOULD be more powerful than clerics as they are harder to unlock, but they should at least somewhat close...

I've probably ticked off a lot of clerics by posting this but anyone who has capped both a cleric and a fvs knows that they are barely compareable.

And I'm not looking for a fvs nerf either. People need more reasons to play divines.

Just SOME of those reasons should point towards cleric over fvs. Right now that isn't the case.

You forgot to add they could hypothetically also umd some things. Actually with helves they wouldn't even have to. They just take sorc dili and then all those nice scrolls are available while leveling. (Mainly stoneskin, and displacement.)

And as said before many are still waiting on pre's that hopfully come out before the game shuts down or we world explodes next December some time lol.

Plus theirs one great thing about favored. You can walk into a party duel wielding a couple of daggers whippn BB and whatever else and no one really even notices. But let a cleric start casting spells and have a 2 hander in er hand and all hell breaks loose.

[PurdueDave]

The big advantage is that cleric is free.

Outside that, cleric just needs a good PrE and maybe a few more useful divine spells.

[Habreno]

You forgot to add they could hypothetically also umd some things. Actually with helves they wouldn't even have to. They just take sorc dili and then all those nice scrolls are available while leveling. (Mainly stoneskin, and displacement.)

And so can Clerics. Actually, a Cleric would be even more likely to do this than a Favored Soul, since Clerics use TU quite a bit for all their other uses especially the aura. To sustain this use, many Clerics start with a higher CHA than a Favored Soul would. So UMD is not a valid reason to go Favored Soul, as Clerics can do the exact same thing, and often better.

And as said before many are still waiting on pre's that hopfully come out before the game shuts down or we world explodes next December some time lol.

And this also plauges the Favored Soul. They only have one PrE up to tier 2. Plus, Favored Souls don't even have ToD rings for their PrE's. Clerics do have them, and hopefully when they actually get their PrE's will acquire extra benefits due to tier 3 PrE's affecting ToD set bonuses, which will be unavailable to Favored Souls.

Plus theirs one great thing about favored. You can walk into a party dual wielding a couple of daggers whipping BB and whatever else and no one really even notices. But let a cleric start casting spells and have a 2 hander in er hand and all hell breaks loose.

LOL.


You have no clue how a good solid Cleric can do. I for one TWF while casting spells and solo-healing raids, on a first-life Cleric. A solid cleric will be able to both melee and heal parties, even in epic raids, if they properly gear themselves and build their toons.

The reason you are thinking that a Cleric cannot do more than healing is because a solid Cleric is hard to find. A Favored Soul is a P2P class, so the people who build them have at least a small clue about how a toon is built.

Comments in Red, and below:

When it comes to leveling, Favored Souls get more SP, but they both have fewer spell slots and get spells one level later. While spell slots may not be a problem at cap, they are certainly a factor while leveling. Which do you take at level 4? CMW or energy resists? Or do you grab CSW at level 6, or Protection from Energy?
This comes seriously into play while leveling: Level 8 means the Favored Soul can grab CCW, Restoration, Freedom of Movement, Death Ward, any of the AoE alignment spells. And can only take ONE of those at level 8. Level 10 will let you acquire level 5 spells. But do you take your first mass cure, or do you take that juicy Divine Punishment, or Raise Dead, or Greater Command? And it only gets worse from here. Level 12 means you can grab level 6 spells, and now you're picking from four very solid spells for the level. Heal, MCMW, Banishment, Blade Barrier. And delaying any of those is very hard to do. Level 14 means you can grab level 7 spells. Resurrection, MCSW, or do you grab a mass buff? Or do you grab a soldi instakill-Destruction?
So spell slots are a serious leveling problem.

Second, you don't have the versatility of Turn Undead on a Favored Soul. You can't restore spellpoints to a fellow caster. You can't create an AoE HoT without using spellpoints. You can't increase your own damage without using spellpoints. The healing aura is only one minor factor in this. Turn Undead can also be used for a HoT ranged, though it is solo-target only; up to 3d3 points per tick, 1 tick/2 seconds, 30 second duration.

Third, you are outhealed by a Cleric. Clerics get 75% on Empower Healing; Favored Souls get only 50%. Also, Clerics get an extra 2 caster levels on healing spells. That doesn't sound like much, but it means that with your enhancements, Heal, Mass hits for 539 on a Cleric, but 420 on a Favored Soul. That is quite a large difference of 119 points healed; 22% less healing done. On Heal, which caps at CL 15, you're doing 52.5 less points of healing, for a percentage difference of 14% less healing done (367.5 vs 315). And that adds up quite a bit, especially for tank healing and end-game raiding. And that is even worse if you boost both of them up with a clicky; let us go with 50% on Mass Heal and 75% on Heal. 731.5 vs 570 on Mass Heal and 564.375 vs 483.75, which gives percentile differences of 22% and 14%, as without the clickies (Numbers are excluding any crits with Empower Healing metamagic, as no other metas affect either spell, and full healing lines for heals. Clickies for the second set of numbers is based off Epic Dragon's Eye for Superior Efficacy IX (50% boost to all L9 and lower spells, lasts 1 minute/click) and any randomly generated Superior Devotion VI clicky or either Amrath belt for Superior Devotion VIII (75% boost to all L6/L8 and lower healing spells, lasts 3 minutes/click) and are only modified by the caster level differences of Radiant Servant II and the Empower Healing metamagic difference of 75% vs 50% due to Radiant Servant II.)