Is there any reason to play a cleric instead of a favored soul?

[Anneliese]

the CLW capstone (which is race and feat specific, mind you)

Just a quick note, every race can take the CLW capstone. (it locks you into the longsword faith tho..)

[MRMechMan]

Ok did an epic dragon today. Aura was definitely very helpful, as were bursts. Was first healer up, lasted 100%-->30% or so...way longer than I thought with my 1700 or so sp.

But would rather have been fvs still

BTW the new velah is...actually a lot of fun!

[goodspeed]

Comments in Red, and below:

When it comes to leveling, Favored Souls get more SP, but they both have fewer spell slots and get spells one level later. While spell slots may not be a problem at cap, they are certainly a factor while leveling. Which do you take at level 4? CMW or energy resists? Or do you grab CSW at level 6, or Protection from Energy?
This comes seriously into play while leveling: Level 8 means the Favored Soul can grab CCW, Restoration, Freedom of Movement, Death Ward, any of the AoE alignment spells. And can only take ONE of those at level 8. Level 10 will let you acquire level 5 spells. But do you take your first mass cure, or do you take that juicy Divine Punishment, or Raise Dead, or Greater Command? And it only gets worse from here. Level 12 means you can grab level 6 spells, and now you're picking from four very solid spells for the level. Heal, MCMW, Banishment, Blade Barrier. And delaying any of those is very hard to do. Level 14 means you can grab level 7 spells. Resurrection, MCSW, or do you grab a mass buff? Or do you grab a soldi instakill-Destruction?
So spell slots are a serious leveling problem.

Second, you don't have the versatility of Turn Undead on a Favored Soul. You can't restore spellpoints to a fellow caster. You can't create an AoE HoT without using spellpoints. You can't increase your own damage without using spellpoints. The healing aura is only one minor factor in this. Turn Undead can also be used for a HoT ranged, though it is solo-target only; up to 3d3 points per tick, 1 tick/2 seconds, 30 second duration.

Third, you are outhealed by a Cleric. Clerics get 75% on Empower Healing; Favored Souls get only 50%. Also, Clerics get an extra 2 caster levels on healing spells. That doesn't sound like much, but it means that with your enhancements, Heal, Mass hits for 539 on a Cleric, but 420 on a Favored Soul. That is quite a large difference of 119 points healed; 22% less healing done. On Heal, which caps at CL 15, you're doing 52.5 less points of healing, for a percentage difference of 14% less healing done (367.5 vs 315). And that adds up quite a bit, especially for tank healing and end-game raiding. And that is even worse if you boost both of them up with a clicky; let us go with 50% on Mass Heal and 75% on Heal. 731.5 vs 570 on Mass Heal and 564.375 vs 483.75, which gives percentile differences of 22% and 14%, as without the clickies (Numbers are excluding any crits with Empower Healing metamagic, as no other metas affect either spell, and full healing lines for heals. Clickies for the second set of numbers is based off Epic Dragon's Eye for Superior Efficacy IX (50% boost to all L9 and lower spells, lasts 1 minute/click) and any randomly generated Superior Devotion VI clicky or either Amrath belt for Superior Devotion VIII (75% boost to all L6/L8 and lower healing spells, lasts 3 minutes/click) and are only modified by the caster level differences of Radiant Servant II and the Empower Healing metamagic difference of 75% vs 50% due to Radiant Servant II.)

sorry man; I read the stuff in red..( well actually a lil after LOL when the rant started I dropped). But that sheer wall of letters, numbers, is tighter then stonewall jacksons ranks. Enter. Sweet Jesus enter.

Now from the looks of the last reply in red you might be going on about prolly a cleric being awesome or something with spells, I see the word clickie a bit, so im guessing gears in there.

At some point i'm guessing you got ****ed about the battle cleric joke thinking it was stating something. Well it wasn't. Anyway that's all.

[Mellkor]

As someone who has capped both cleric and fvs on the same character with very similar gear, here are some thoughts...

What do clerics get that fvs do NOT?

Advantage #1 Clerics get more spells at each level

Rebuttal: At no spell level are the fewer spells of a fvs a major issue. There just aren't THAT many good spells. Only issues are lvl 9 (3 of implosion/true res/energy drain/mass heal), level 8 (3 of holy aura/mass cure crit/symbol of death/mass DW) level 6 (3 of BB/heal/cometfall/mass cure mod).

All other spell levels the 6 spells that clerics get is absolute overkill. Almost always end up slotting something that is never cast at all.

The strength of the cleric is versitility. Versitility is near useless as many divine spells are garbage.

Advantage #2 Radiant I and II are great sources of healing.

Rebuttal: They are. The aura is a nice way to keep people topped up during long quests, and the bursts are a great mass cure. However, burst healing is what is more important, and FVS are equally good at that. Mass heal is such an efficient way to heal that it's the best course of action in most cases, and fvs can do that for longer. There aren't THAT many quests at endgame where the aura shines. Most have shrines every 5-10min.

There are very few situations where a cleric is a much better healer than a fvs.

Advantage #3 Clerics can turn undead

Rebuttal: It's pretty useless at endgame. Where are all the undead? It's generally better to use turns to heal/burst the undead anyway.

Compared to what a FVS gets...

-capstone 10 DR
-3x 10 stacking energy resistance
-weapon enhancements
-+6 refex saves
-wings
-700+ odd sp
-capstone free searing light/cure light wounds
-up to 50% more divine punishment damage from AOV and -50% FORT. That is HUGE, particularly with the new boss fort. Bring a fvs, or the rogues are useless....
-+2 spell pen/DCs/to-hit on debuffed mobs
-lantern archon
-30% extra damage on untyped/fire/physical spells

...think I got everything?



Solutions?

Spells-Improve the weaker choices at each level to make the 4th, 5th and 6th options something that is somewhat decent. Give divines more than 5 choices for 9th level spells! Make fvs at least SOMEWHAT regret the lack of those spells slots. They ought to be trading SOMETHING-I know sorcs at least feel slightly less versitle than wizards. Fvs do not feel that way in the slightest.

Presige Classes-Finish Rad III and make the other two prestige classes at least sufficiently powerful to make AOV FvS go "hmmm, maybe..."

FvS SHOULD be more powerful than clerics as they are harder to unlock, but they should at least somewhat close...

I've probably ticked off a lot of clerics by posting this but anyone who has capped both a cleric and a fvs knows that they are barely compareable.

And I'm not looking for a fvs nerf either. People need more reasons to play divines.

Just SOME of those reasons should point towards cleric over fvs. Right now that isn't the case.

This sums up my experience very well also, having multiple capped clerics and FvS's of every flavor!

I think a radiant savant III prestige that adds more of a boost to the aura and bursts are all that is needed to make clerics more competitive. and maybe a better tod set!

[Mellkor]

...call me a disbeliever, but i have yet to see any fvs build that can even compare to the 2 specific cleric build posted as a challenge on that thread to this date. ( there used to be more then 225 posts in that thread, but due to allot of namecalling etc. thread got modified).

happy reading
zack

Ask veteran players who have played both to cap, even those so called "challenge builds" and most will say FvS is better at endgame, hands down. Those challenge builds simply cannot do some things a good Lord of Blades build can do at high-end end game content. I for one can attest to this. Anyone who says otherwise has either not really played both at endgame very much or have only played clerics.

[smatt]

It simply depends... There' sno question that a capped, geared out FvS is VERY powerful end game. But I would say taht for many players, a capped geared out cleric is an easier clas to play as a healer in tight situations, simply due to the amount of spells a cleric can toggle through. It makes it EASIER, not neccesarily better from the "uber tuber" perspective. I much prefer my cleric in pure heal/buffbot situations over my FvS hands down.

That being said clerics DO deserve some love..


But alas...... The POOR whittle monks take all the DDO game love most of the time

[MRMechMan]

This sums up my experience very well also, having multiple capped clerics and FvS's of every flavor!

I think a radiant savant III prestige that adds more of a boost to the aura and bursts are all that is needed to make clerics more competitive. and maybe a better tod set!

I actually got a radiant ring yesterday...no one wanted it for some reason...here is the set:

Belt: Superior Ardor VIII clickie, Wizardry VI
Ring: Wisdom +6 (already on both concops, don't need it in a 3rd place thank you) +1 exp charisma (1/2 a turn attempt, amazing)
Set Bonus (here is where it gets good): ONE additional turn undead attempt. "exceptional bonus to turn undead cleric level" (I've hit "turn undead" exactly 10x this life. All of them were in that lich quest in deleras)

UBER. Concops are wiz VI, +6 wis already so...basically giving up 2 slots for +1 exp charisma and 1 turn attempt.

But I also pulled rahkirs so was not too upset.


Perhaps I was spoilt by the soloability/raw power of wf palemaster, fvs and earth savant. Cleric just doesn't compare.

But as a raid healer I think they are in the same ballpark, maybe even better in some situations. Still suprised at how many dragon breaths could go as cleric, dinky sp pool almost lasted entire time ^^.

[Mellkor]

I actually got a radiant ring yesterday...no one wanted it for some reason...here is the set:

Belt: Superior Ardor VIII clickie, Wizardry VI
Ring: Wisdom +6 (already on both concops, don't need it in a 3rd place thank you) +1 exp charisma (1/2 a turn attempt, amazing)
Set Bonus (here is where it gets good): ONE additional turn undead attempt. "exceptional bonus to turn undead cleric level" (I've hit "turn undead" exactly 10x this life. All of them were in that lich quest in deleras)

UBER. Concops are wiz VI, +6 wis already so...basically giving up 2 slots for +1 exp charisma and 1 turn attempt.

But I also pulled rahkirs so was not too upset.


Perhaps I was spoilt by the soloability/raw power of wf palemaster, fvs and earth savant. Cleric just doesn't compare.

But as a raid healer I think they are in the same ballpark, maybe even better in some situations. Still suprised at how many dragon breaths could go as cleric, dinky sp pool almost lasted entire time ^^.

For a tod radiant savant ring, I would have put +6 cha, +1 excep cha, and a set bonus that adds a healing lore, say 9% + a bonus to crit, that applies to auras and bursts only. This set bonus would stack with regular healing lore for auras/bursts. And maybe also 2 additional turn undeads or something like that.

[MRMechMan]

For a tod radiant savant ring, I would have put +6 cha, +1 excep cha, and a set bonus that adds a healing lore, say 9% + a bonus to crit, that applies to auras and bursts only. This set bonus would stack with regular healing lore for auras/bursts. And maybe also 2 additional turn undeads or something like that.

I think for the non exceptional stat bonus (+6) it is always

barbs/fighters/pally=str
rogue/rangers=dex
wiz=int
cleric/monk/fvs=wis (oh wait there ARE no fvs tod rings, my bad!)
sorc/bard=cha

Even if cha would be better. Clerics=wisdom, apparently.

Ironically, the best tod rings for divines are either thamors (6 cha 1 con) or telvis/dragonmarked (6 cha 1 wis). Or Rahkirs if set.

And the best belts barring a few seconds every 3 minutes are either any archmagi belt; or a +6 con/GFL belt for slot consolidation.

[Habreno]

Just a quick note, every race can take the CLW capstone. (it locks you into the longsword faith tho..)

Thank-you. Wasn't sure, thought it was race-specific but apparently I was wrong.

sorry man; I read the stuff in red..( well actually a lil after LOL when the rant started I dropped). But that sheer wall of letters, numbers, is tighter then stonewall jacksons ranks. Enter. Sweet Jesus enter.

Now from the looks of the last reply in red you might be going on about prolly a cleric being awesome or something with spells, I see the word clickie a bit, so im guessing gears in there.

At some point i'm guessing you got ****ed about the battle cleric joke thinking it was stating something. Well it wasn't. Anyway that's all.

I'd love to know what you considered a rant, because there was none in there. I was simply stating fact, and I am correct, because if I wasn't, you would have realized it wasn't a rant. You have not seen a solid Cleric played well, and honestly, I'm not as surprised as you'd thing since they are rare.

Being honest, half that was simply explaining every single detail about the calculations. So you don't have to truly read it if you believe my calculations, or may read it if you don't believe them.

Did two sets of calculations; one with clickies and one without.

Being honest here. If you want to make a false joke about a specific thing which is something you claim is inferior to what you are claiming, then you're picking the wrong thread to make a very poorly-constucted "joke" about, as in a thread such as this it will NOT be seen as a joke. And thus, my reaction was just and as it was posted.

Lastly, playing a pure capped cleric, I have partied with many Favored Souls and Clerics. I have met quite a few Clerics which I consider quite solid and competent divines, but have met very few Favored Souls which are of the same caliber. Perhaps it's because Favored Souls are not as versatile, perhaps it's because it's very hard to be able to melee, offensively cast, and heal all at once on a Favored Soul. It is easy to do this on a Cleric, though, and that I can tell you from experience as someone who does it.

[GermanicusMaximus]

I actually got a radiant ring yesterday...no one wanted it for some reason...here is the set:

Belt: Superior Ardor VIII clickie, Wizardry VI
Ring: Wisdom +6 (already on both concops, don't need it in a 3rd place thank you) +1 exp charisma (1/2 a turn attempt, amazing)
Set Bonus (here is where it gets good): ONE additional turn undead attempt. "exceptional bonus to turn undead cleric level" (I've hit "turn undead" exactly 10x this life. All of them were in that lich quest in deleras)

UBER. Concops are wiz VI, +6 wis already so...basically giving up 2 slots for +1 exp charisma and 1 turn attempt.

But I also pulled rahkirs so was not too upset.


Perhaps I was spoilt by the soloability/raw power of wf palemaster, fvs and earth savant. Cleric just doesn't compare.

But as a raid healer I think they are in the same ballpark, maybe even better in some situations. Still suprised at how many dragon breaths could go as cleric, dinky sp pool almost lasted entire time ^^.

Most of the cleric ToD sets are basically unusable. Aside from the Superior Ardor VIII clickies (which are very nice as a clickie) they bring nothing to the table. The warpriest set +2 to hit, +2 exceptional to hit, 2 additional turns is the most useful. I use my rahkirs set a lot of the time.

FvS obviously has the advantage in terms of DPS, but the game is loaded with DPS: melee, arcane, arties. The missing ingredient in most quests is heals.

I ran in a hard VoD today. Other healer was a FvS, with more spell points than I have. Half way through, he announces he is out of spell points (and of course has no pots). I heal to completion, healing the party with my aura (and a couple spot mass cures) and casting heal on the tank.

Hardly something out of the ordinary, but replace my cleric with a FvS in that quest, and it likely wipes. Give me a decent cleric instead of a FvS, and a completion that required some work is basically just an auto complete.

You need DPS and some healing, bring a FvS. You need first class healing, bring a cleric.

[DeafeningWhisper]

I prefer clerics because I like 1-2 lvls splashing without any loss of healing, a Clonk (18 cleric/2Monk) or Nun with a Gun (1arty/19 cleric) can have the same amount of wis a pure cleric 20 can and they bring some nice extras to the party.

A clonk with the Extra Turning feat can go melee with the rest of the party while healing at no sp cost for quite a while and gets a decent Stunning Fist DC, evasion doesn't hurt either.

A Nun with a Gun can get all traps in the game, dps from afar with Heavy Repeater at the cost of Zen Archery and can easily solo low lvl content.

[countfitz]

I have 2 of each, capped. Casting FvS>Pure cleric. Splashed battlecleric>WF FvS. And the clerics are both way EASIER to play (turn on aura and have fun) are both better healers, and were way easier to cap, get accepted in parties, and complete (not farm) epics.

My order: battlecleric>Casting FvS>Pure cleric>WF FvS.

But I love ease of play (I use a game controller and lots of autoattack) not spellcasting/aiming.

[erikbozelie]

Ask veteran players who have played both to cap, even those so called "challenge builds" and most will say FvS is better at endgame, hands down. Those challenge builds simply cannot do some things a good Lord of Blades build can do at high-end end game content. I for one can attest to this. Anyone who says otherwise has either not really played both at endgame very much or have only played clerics.

I am a veteran player .

but honestly, i cannot roll any fvs build satisfactory to me, because i always find a way to ruin the build for me with a cleric.

sp:cleric 3k sp base and 3.5k sp in effects of turning, VS 3550 sp fvs.
dps: cleric, looking at 587dps, VS 150± fvs
spell DC: same.
spell pen: fvs. but bypass CC as cleric.
what else to compare.
survivability? depends on content, id say non epic, cleric, in epic, slight advantage due to wings and alitle bit dr.
healing: cleric, aura overuns the SLA by 3 ticks on people, which is easy achievable.

turtle mode in tod allows a wf fvs to solo it + heal spam + guards. although wf are not welcome in EDA.

can only call disbeliever on me if you can beat my 2 posted cleric builds on the thread i posted earlier.
if not, your spouting more random gargage statements without knowledge like all the other fvs suporters in that thread.

every statement has already been discussed, broken down, and proven to work or has been proven not to work. as for fvs vs cleric, only thing left of that thread left standing was wings, and 1 other thing. go read.

[MRMechMan]

I am a veteran player .

sp:cleric 3k sp base and 3.5k sp in effects of turning, VS 3550 sp fvs.
dps: cleric, looking at 587dps, VS 150± fvs
.

I stopped reading right around here. Clerics have 3k sp base? 4x the dps of fvs?

You aren't being very persuasive with statements like that. They seem aluring, but just aren't true.

I also read your build before and, yes, it is powerful. That kind of multiclass split would be disasterous on a fvs. Different strokes for different folks.

However...AC is pretty useless endgame, and isn't doing you any favors for sp regen in other content. I cringe when I see misses. Traps? Most are avoidable. That build dominates 16th-19th level content and some of the easier epics...but any good divine build does.

I am enjoying cleric. Last man standing and soloed last 5% of EDQ2 today. Got it done, as a cleric. It's a very solid class.

But FvS is more powerful unless you are going for a flavor build.

[SirValentine]

Advantage #1 Clerics get more spells at each level

Rebuttal: At no spell level are the fewer spells of a fvs a major issue. There just aren't THAT many good spells. Only issues are lvl 9 (3 of implosion/true res/energy drain/mass heal), level 8 (3 of holy aura/mass cure crit/symbol of death/mass DW) level 6 (3 of BB/heal/cometfall/mass cure mod).

All other spell levels the 6 spells that clerics get is absolute overkill. Almost always end up slotting something that is never cast at all.

The strength of the cleric is versitility. Versitility is near useless as many divine spells are garbage.

Really need to disagree with this. Sure, you can do fine with fewer spell slots, but I think there is utility in being able to carry a wider range of buffs and offensive spells, and being able to swap in the perfect spell for a given situation, rather than settling for only decent spells for all situations.

Advantage #2 Radiant I and II are great sources of healing.

Rebuttal: They are. The aura is a nice way to keep people topped up during long quests, and the bursts are a great mass cure. However, burst healing is what is more important, and FVS are equally good at that. Mass heal is such an efficient way to heal that it's the best course of action in most cases, and fvs can do that for longer. There aren't THAT many quests at endgame where the aura shines. Most have shrines every 5-10min.

There are very few situations where a cleric is a much better healer than a fvs.

Have to disagree again. The only situations where FvS huge SP pool matters is extended beatdowns, usually raid bosses, and even there the aura helps. In, say, 6-man epic or high-level quests, the aura is incredible, and more than makes up for the SP difference.

Advantage #3 Clerics can turn undead

Rebuttal: It's pretty useless at endgame.

No argument there!

-+2 spell pen/DCs/to-hit on debuffed mobs
<snip>
-30% extra damage on untyped/fire/physical spells

I hate to say to nerf anything, but I really don't like that FvS have BOTH of these advantages.

I'm quite happy to have FvS be much better at spell DPS, as Sorc is to Wiz, as long as Clr is better at DC-based-casting, as Wiz is to Sorc. Currently, due to the -2 saving throw aura debuff, FvS are better at both.

Presige Classes-Finish Rad III and make the other two prestige classes at least sufficiently powerful to make AOV FvS go "hmmm, maybe..."

Signed.

[butcheredspirit]

sp:cleric 3k sp base and 3.5k sp in effects of turning, VS 3550 sp fvs.

I'm not disagreeing with you, but I'd like to know how you do that.
...I get the feeling I couldn't afford the feats it likely requires.



I get bored at level 20, but love leveling up.
From this perspective I find cleric very powerful, and FvS a bit slower and limiting.

My view is that people who say extra spell slots aren't needed, are unaware of the potential.
More spells would be great, but there are so good ones already.

Slay Living, Dismissal, Banishment, Destruction, Implosion
- being able to cycle through each of these kills many very fast.
In some quests some of these spells aren't needed, ok swap them out.

Energy Drain, Symbol of Death,
Greater Command, the symbols, the list goes on.

Granted a FvS can take these spells too,
But a cleric can slot all of those (sooner), plus all the buffs and cures, sometimes more.

I could've taken a level of wizard for flame and force manipulation...
but I don't even use those spells all that much.

When I leveled a FvS Evoker, I felt so stuck for spell choices - I felt like I couldn't fill as many roles.

At the end of the day, I think your individual play style is what determines weather
There is any reason left to play a cleric instead of a FvS

I don't think either one is stronger in every area than the other.

[Therigar]

Although they do not have to be, clerics have the reputation for being healbots. This is rapidly falling into disfavor with players -- maybe already has. But, if your icon shows cleric there is a good chance that others will expect you to be nothing but a healer and buffer.

Favored souls have the reputation for being combat characters with the ability to heal. When other players see the FvS icon they will expect you to be in the melee using your dots and casting out the odd cure if things get hinky or the rez after you've finished cleaning everything up.

These two different mindsets by others is the main difference between playing a cleric and playing a favored soul. It isn't so much about what the two classes could be doing -- let's be honest, FvS can be healbots and clerics can be melee characters -- it is more about what other players think they will be doing.

So, IMO, the choice of which class to play should be based on which role you, the player, want for your character. If you want a healbot then go cleric. I think their PrE gears them to be better at that. If you want a combat character then go FvS.

[Matuse]

dps: cleric, looking at 587dps, VS 150± fvs

I don't even want to know what kind of mystical fantasy realm you pulled these numbers from.

Cause it's not DDO.

[DeafeningWhisper]

Although they do not have to be, clerics have the reputation for being healbots. This is rapidly falling into disfavor with players -- maybe already has. But, if your icon shows cleric there is a good chance that others will expect you to be nothing but a healer and buffer.

Favored souls have the reputation for being combat characters with the ability to heal. When other players see the FvS icon they will expect you to be in the melee using your dots and casting out the odd cure if things get hinky or the rez after you've finished cleaning everything up.

This is completely true (except for the disfavor part), which is why many distrust FvS in general and you'll get ask "can you heal?" or "Are you a heal build?" when playing even a pure FvS, I've seen many leaders who just don't take FvS because: "I have no idea what kind of *&?%$ build they might play".

A pure Cleric (even most splashed ones) will get in a healer spot on any party with no problems, a FvS will get in depending on the leader and the higher the content the more I see leaders interviewing FvS before letting them in.

In Epics and end game content people want a healer and because of a handful of badly played FvS that role is more closely associated with the Cleric. Heck I've seen FvS get refused to raids because "sorry, we need healers not self-healing wannabe ftrs".