Is there any reason to play a cleric instead of a favored soul?

[erikbozelie]

I don't even want to know what kind of mystical fantasy realm you pulled these numbers from.

Cause it's not DDO.

by math. build posted in thread and confirmed by various builders, GO READ! geez, id like you to come up with a fvs build that can best it. as for that thread went on for 300-400 posts. not a single person was capable.

as for you MRMechMan,

its specific builds that fvs will never be able to beat cleric, in any way posible by a noselength.

as stated, the 3k sp cleric, with 30 turns. versus a fvs of 3550. ive defended both sides in that thread.
although this is healbot vs healbot.

butcheredspirit,

here was the quick draft of the cleric i posted on that thread. not very min max, but you the the point(18/1/1 would be better)

[Mellkor]

by math. build posted in thread and confirmed by various builders, GO READ! geez, id like you to come up with a fvs build that can best it. as for that thread went on for 300-400 posts. not a single person was capable.

as for you MRMechMan,

its specific builds that fvs will never be able to beat cleric, in any way posible by a noselength.

as stated, the 3k sp cleric, with 30 turns. versus a fvs of 3550. ive defended both sides in that thread.
although this is healbot vs healbot.

butcheredspirit,

here was the quick draft of the cleric i posted on that thread. not very min max, but you the the point(18/1/1 would be better)

Not by any math you learned in grade school. Too many interpolated factors were used in your math to lend any kind of credibility to it.

Your cleric builds cannot beat these benchmarks or even come close to attaining all in one package, that I have on my first life WF Lord of Blades.

600+ HP's.
12DR standing, with 40 DR while shield blocking.
2600+ sp's.
40 reflex save, 38 fort save (self buffed) and 31 will save.
+53 to hit first swing with power attack on. Good enough to hit just about everything on a 2.
+58 damage modifier, not counting weapon effects.


All this from self buffs and ship buffs only. Add rage, haste, bard, arti buffs, past lives, etc for even better numbers.

So much for your "challenge"

Clerics can get the sp's this guy has, but gimps dps. Or a cleric can get the dps this guy has, but gimps SP's. In no case can a cleric get the DR this guy has. Also in no case can a cleric have high numbers (for a divine) in terms of SP's, saves, HPs, DPS and DR all in one package. Oh and on top of that, the FvS has much better elemental resists, debuffs, and divine punishment damage.

Link to build is in my sig.

[DeafeningWhisper]

by math. build posted in thread and confirmed by various builders, GO READ! geez, id like you to come up with a fvs build that can best it. as for that thread went on for 300-400 posts. not a single person was capable.

as for you MRMechMan,

its specific builds that fvs will never be able to beat cleric, in any way posible by a noselength.

as stated, the 3k sp cleric, with 30 turns. versus a fvs of 3550. ive defended both sides in that thread.
although this is healbot vs healbot.

butcheredspirit,

here was the quick draft of the cleric i posted on that thread. not very min max, but you the the point(18/1/1 would be better)

While I also love Clerics, your 3 Sorc AND 3 FvS past life cleric with 2 lvls of Sorc, a lvl of FvS, maxed wis AND cha is great in theory it's not realistic for most players, if any... And certainly not the "base sp" you claim.

[Firesmall_at]

Clerics have great buffs. Rmv those neg lvls easy too. It is not just about damage and heal output. Esp whenn pugging and ship buffs run out.

[Habreno]

Not by any math you learned in grade school. Too many interpolated factors were used in your math to lend any kind of credibility to it.

Your cleric builds cannot beat these benchmarks or even come close to attaining all in one package, that I have on my first life WF Lord of Blades.

600+ HP's.
12DR standing, with 40 DR while shield blocking.
2600+ sp's.
40 reflex save, 38 fort save (self buffed) and 31 will save.
+53 to hit first swing with power attack on. Good enough to hit just about everything on a 2.
+58 damage modifier, not counting weapon effects.


All this from self buffs and ship buffs only. Add rage, haste, bard, arti buffs, past lives, etc for even better numbers.

So much for your "challenge"

Clerics can get the sp's this guy has, but gimps dps. Or a cleric can get the dps this guy has, but gimps SP's. In no case can a cleric get the DR this guy has. Also in no case can a cleric have high numbers (for a divine) in terms of SP's, saves, HPs, DPS and DR all in one package. Oh and on top of that, the FvS has much better elemental resists, debuffs, and divine punishment damage.

Link to build is in my sig.

I'd like to see you solo-heal the end Abishai fight in EChrono with that build, without using memonics and a reasonable (100) heal scrolls. I don't think you could do it, even in pre-u11 where all the HP's got buffed. Or try healing intense epics, or end-game raids (Level 20 on Normal) either solo or duo. You couldn't. And there is your problem.

Favored Souls are good at one or two things. They can melee, they can heal, or they can offensively cast. They cannot do all three together like a good Cleric can, because they're not as versatile as a Cleric is. I've already been forced to melee Summolades by myself to a completion because nobody could stay alive with the heals being tossed (after the tank dies because the arcanes run out of SP and everyone is getting cursed and can't pull them fast enough) due to being cursed. I have been in times where it's me and a monk duo-meleeing Xy'zzy in Elite Hound, since he's the only one who can live in an antimagic field because it's a poor party construction, while I keep him and myself up with bursts.


Being good at melee is one thing. Being good at all three is something a Favored Soul cannot, has not, and never will be able to do with the same build.

[AtomicMew]

Favored Souls are good at one or two things. They can melee, they can heal, or they can offensively cast.

Take a look at Groan's build posted in the achievements section. Basically, you are wrong. It is the cleric who has the harder time doing all three, due to having weaker offensive casting and overall less survivability.

every statement has already been discussed, broken down, and proven to work or has been proven not to work. as for fvs vs cleric, only thing left of that thread left standing was wings, and 1 other thing. go read.

The only thing that thread will show is that people got tired of arguing with you. Don't confuse persistence with proof.

can only call disbeliever on me if you can beat my 2 posted cleric builds on the thread i posted earlier.

Again, your builds have been beaten. All you need to do is look in the achievement section. Getting 80 AC is irrelevant when a FvS simply doesn't need it to do everything and more that your build claims it can.

[erikbozelie]

600+ HP's.
12DR standing, with 40 DR while shield blocking.
2600+ sp's.
40 reflex save, 38 fort save (self buffed) and 31 will save.
+53 to hit first swing with power attack on. Good enough to hit just about everything on a 2.
+58 damage modifier, not counting weapon effects.


Link to build is in my sig.

challance accepted. i wont actually read your thread, because you clearly havent read the one i posted.

my build currently at level 20 has.

440hp(okay got me beat).
yours doesnt has any ac. but 7 more DR standing.
my saves are higher.
spwise: 1850 vs 2600. ok beat me there, i got 14 turns(116sp each). 1 used for aura. 1508 aditional sp. got you beat in healing.

i got +62 to hit. with a dmg of 5d6+51 at nearly twice your hitting speed. and has the ability to add 50% ontop of that to trash. with instakill effects. now lets add a bard warchanter, and all of the other stuff mentioned. as all

nice build, your still missing evasion, so your reflex means nothing.
you dont have epic trapsmithing, making you more limited to a certain number of quests. as a wf i presume? not welcome in EDA.

guess we got different builds better at different things, doesnt make one better then the other.
i still prefer 1 of each in a raid group. 1 fvs to keep the tank alive, 1 cleric to keep the group alive.

as for the insult, i think you need to start learning to read before you get to math class.

I am out of this thread since its clearly going towards the bragging and namecalling competition as usual.

[Mellkor]

I'd like to see you solo-heal the end Abishai fight in EChrono with that build, without using memonics and a reasonable (100) heal scrolls. I don't think you could do it, even in pre-u11 where all the HP's got buffed. Or try healing intense epics, or end-game raids (Level 20 on Normal) either solo or duo. You couldn't. And there is your problem.

Favored Souls are good at one or two things. They can melee, they can heal, or they can offensively cast. They cannot do all three together like a good Cleric can, because they're not as versatile as a Cleric is. I've already been forced to melee Summolades by myself to a completion because nobody could stay alive with the heals being tossed (after the tank dies because the arcanes run out of SP and everyone is getting cursed and can't pull them fast enough) due to being cursed. I have been in times where it's me and a monk duo-meleeing Xy'zzy in Elite Hound, since he's the only one who can live in an antimagic field because it's a poor party construction, while I keep him and myself up with bursts.


Being good at melee is one thing. Being good at all three is something a Favored Soul cannot, has not, and never will be able to do with the same build.

Not one to brag, but I havent tried the Abashai solo, but I have served as main tank, successfully, in a group. I have also tanked epic demon queen without having to run from her (DR for the win). Also solo'ed vod, and tanked for TOD sulu as well as horoth and the jailer. I have no problems healing end game quests as well as intense epics, and do it all the time. Does your cleric hit the benchmarks I listed all in one character? I don't think so.

[Candela90]

For me FvS is better till they add new prestige for cleric.
I mean more dmg with spells vs overhealing? ...

DR is better than AC (at least on divine )
more dmg I PERSONALLY like more than overhealing
More sp vs more spell slots ( i dont find a lot divine spells usefull... on arcane it actually IS a problem for me, and i like to have sp for healing and killing, cause yeah... in group u can heal with bursts and kill with mana, but when soloing more mana is more usefull, cause u donrt need to heal so often - on fvs while soloing i mostly heal with me free capstone CLW)
Oh FvS have more feats and free resistances, better saves and 4 toughness enhancement, while cleric have no free resistances, average saves and only 2 toughness enhancements,
+ FvS have a jump as a class skill... maybe for some its not a big value, but i saw clerics with jump on minus... ;p It make problems in some quests even with +30 jump spell.

Wings + Archon vs Aura and bursts - these are both fine. I mean i love do at least some dmg for 20 sp all 5 mins and fly, but i would find aura/burstst usefull by beholders. - then they are big advantage.

As to multiclass... I would never multiclass a FvS. Cleric more likely.

Someone said cleric with 3k mana to 3,5k fvs mana. Yeah... i too can compare FvS with A LOT sorcerer past lifes to cleric 1-3rd life...
So if we are comparing 10past lifes sorcerers cleric, lets compare it to 10 past lifes sorcerers FvS.

I dont say clerics sucks.... but for a caster i would def. go FvS. For melee... WF FvS OR multiclassed cleric - both are fine.
I think that clerics need some love from Turbine ;p

[Mellkor]

challance accepted. i wont actually read your thread, because you clearly havent read the one i posted.

my build currently at level 20 has.

440hp(okay got me beat).
yours doesnt has any ac. but 7 more DR standing.
my saves are higher.
spwise: 1850 vs 2600. ok beat me there, i got 14 turns(116sp each). 1 used for aura. 1508 aditional sp. got you beat in healing.

i got +62 to hit. with a dmg of 5d6+51 at nearly twice your hitting speed. and has the ability to add 50% ontop of that to trash. with instakill effects. now lets add a bard warchanter, and all of the other stuff mentioned. as all

nice build, your still missing evasion, so your reflex means nothing.
you dont have epic trapsmithing, making you more limited to a certain number of quests. as a wf i presume? not welcome in EDA.

guess we got different builds better at different things, doesnt make one better then the other.
i still prefer 1 of each in a raid group. 1 fvs to keep the tank alive, 1 cleric to keep the group alive.

as for the insult, i think you need to start learning to read before you get to math class.

I am out of this thread since its clearly going towards the bragging and namecalling competition as usual.

Heh, so you admit defeat then? I have shown u a build that bests yours. You were the one challenging people to come up with a build that bests yours, don't go running off when someone shows you one.

I am always welcome in EDA and do it all the time. Don't see why I wouldn't be. What is your point on that?

Your to hit is good. we both hit almost all mobs on a 2, so a 62 to hit is not really an advantage over my build. I can do better than +62, if I have to, by turning off PA.

40 reflex save w/o evasion is still awesome, don't really need evasion with a good reflex save. It is nice, ya, but hardly required. Since you didn't post your saves, what are they? (with just ship buffs and self buffs, please)

As for twice the attack speed, I assume it is only because of haste boosts, which are limited to a few minutes at best, nice, yes, but not something you can really count on since it is limited. Also as to your claim to do 50% damage "on top of this", please explain.

I have yet to do a quest where lack of trapsmithing was an issue, so that is a moot point.

Aura is nice, and is a clear advantage sometimes, but I am still capable of healing any quest, and difficulty, with no issues.

AC is also a moot point, unless you can approach 90AC. What is your AC? DR is, however, a huge advantage and an issue you seem to avoid.

Lets bring in DPS vs high fort mobs as well. Not only can the FvS significantly debuff fort THEY ALSO boost light damage at the same time. So while fighting the FvS increases DPS by a LOT simply by debuffing mobs to allow more crits to land AS WELL as boosting divine punishment damage. This effect alone easily more than doubles DPS, especially on long boss fights. And easily wipes away any advantage you can claim from having a slightly higher to hit over my build. I would even bet my left nut that this effect, on long fights, does a lot more DPS than when you have haste boost active.

What instakill effects do you have that I dont also have access to?

No need to throw in things like warchanter buffs, since we can both benefit equally. Just leave that stuff out of this debate, please. Keep it to self buffs and ship buffs only, I think that is a more fair way to compare, no need to throw in all these obscure things that in reality are not used much in practice or require someone else to provide.

At 440 hp's with only 5dr, you wont be able to do things like tanking Horoth, the demon queen (on epic), the Abashai, Sulu, Jailor, or soloing VOD. Things I can do, and have done, and some on a regular basis, as well as serving as healbot on those same quests.

[Firesmall_at]

Reduce the timer on airship buffs to 30 minutes and guess who gets the invites? This thread would not be posted if it was not for ship buffs.

[Mellkor]

Reduce the timer on airship buffs to 30 minutes and guess who gets the invites? This thread would not be posted if it was not for ship buffs.

Ship buffs benefit both equally, so its not really a benefit to one or the other when both "sides" factor them in. Take ship buffs away from both and the net effect would still be the same. It would even be easier, for the purposes of debate, to leave out all common factors, but that is a pain, it is easier to debate in terms of whats done in actual practice. Theoretical or stripped down comparisons have merit, but it is too easy to throw in too many things on a theoretical build that simply are not used much in practice. IE yugo pots, house D pots, etc.

[erikbozelie]

Not one to brag, but I havent tried the Abashai solo, but I have served as main tank, successfully, in a group. I have also tanked epic demon queen without having to run from her (DR for the win). Also solo'ed vod, and tanked for TOD sulu as well as horoth and the jailer. I have no problems healing end game quests as well as intense epics, and do it all the time. Does your cleric hit the benchmarks I listed all in one character? I don't think so.

actually i did 1st life, but i feel no need to brag about it.

[Candela90]

erikbozelie and Mellkor conversation is starting to sound like:

- I have a cake.
- But i have a bigger cake.
- But my cake is as big as yours.
- Mine has better flavor.
- Mine have bestest flavor.
- Mine have a lot of butter.
- Mine cake IS a butter.
Etc...

[countfitz]

Ship buffs benefit both equally, so its not really a benefit to one or the other when both "sides" factor them in. Take ship buffs away from both and the net effect would still be the same. It would even be easier, for the purposes of debate, to leave out all common factors, but that is a pain, it is easier to debate in terms of whats done in actual practice. Theoretical or stripped down comparisons have merit, but it is too easy to throw in too many things on a theoretical build that simply are not used much in practice. IE yugo pots, house D pots, etc.

The point is if we didn't have such easy access to Cleric/FvS buffs on ships, or in fact buffs that are better than them, then a cleric, which has the slots to carry all the buffs, whereas a FvS doesn't, would outshine the FvS hands down.

But we DO have buffs. And, to add to another argument further up this thread, we DO have pots, sp pots, heal scrolls, etc. We DON'T have free DPS pots from the DDO Store, and the only one's I've ever seen were during Mabar and cost an arm and a leg, and few people consider those as options. But scrolls are not only options but considered necessary by most vets/powergamers.

With the game we play, FvSs are more OP, mostly because Clerics are so good at something that they almost always overdo, healing, whereas FvSs are all about the DPS, which this game makes more and more important with every update.

So, for those of us arguing the benefits of Clerics, we have to understand these points.

Why then play the Cleric? I've stated this above already, they are player friendly, you can't mess them up, they are EASIER to play and level, they don't require fast paced multi-button play, and are accepted into any group.

Click aura, fight, have fun. Simple.

And that is why clerics are EQUAL to FvSs in DDO. If you are already a powergaming, 8 hours a day player, then you already know FvSs are better for your style of play. But you play all endgame epic farming for 10 minute completions. Clerics are fun for the rest of the game. Levels 1-19 plus most of the endgame in groups.

[goodspeed]

yep, all this high end moment to moment battle of strengths for classes that are high and dry on the server anyway.

Sorcerer main healing raid robots ftw!!!

[countfitz]

Also, every month this thread pops up, I usually try to add this statement but forgot in my last two posts.

The fact that we are able to have this argument, every month, ad nauseum, is just a testament to how well balanced the two classes are and how good of a job Wizards of the Coast did (hell no I'm not giving Turbine credit for this! They can't balance a two ton truck on a sidewalk).

[Firesmall_at]

Both the Fav Soul and the Cleric strength is healing. Both usually have the heal spell. Clerics over heal? Favs have it tough just like Clerics until Divine Punishment, Divine Power, and Blade Barrier. Clerics get Divine Power and Divine Punishment sooner. Fav soul has better offensive casting with the prestige enhancement, but not as good as a wizard/Soc. Melee on both is 3rd rate no matter what STR cause you don't have the enhancements or enough feats compared to a good melee, but better than some pugs I bet.

The biggest plus for Cleric is 3 level V spells at level 9. Fav doesn't get that till lvl 13. Raise Dead. Divine Punishment. Greater Command. And really many more are needed. Prot from Elements. Spell resist. Mass cure, and even more, but only when u get the higher level mass cast versions.

Why a FavSoul would give up the offensive casting feats and enhancements is beyond me with the prestige enhancement. Would be like a Cleric giving up Radiant Servant and empower healing. Hence the rub. The Cleric doesn't have to be pure because they can overheal, but not having a pure FavSoul with the prestige enhancement for damage is worse. So the level splash Cleric has better melee than the Fav IMHO, but it still is sub-par.

More unknowns with a FavSoul and more questions. Some say they don't even take cure/heal spells till mid-lvl. Cleric is expected to offensive cast, heal, and buff. And can crowd control... at the same time. Melee too with a splash.

I run with all metas on for offensive casting, manage sp for healing, and am not stingy with pots. I buy them at the DDO store. I will put that philosophy against the stingy FavSoul any day too worried about spell points for 2nd rate offensive casting and melee buffs.

FavSoul is second rate. Second rate with offensive Casting, healing, and 3rd rate melee. Best as second to the Wiz/Soc, Second as a healer, and 3rd as a melee.

A nice backup to the mains.
lol. Just kidding. I would like to have a Fav Soul next to me in any party over a Cleric because I am a Cleric. 2 heals on cool down are better than one. 3 in a raid party. I bet the melee likes a Fav in there meleeing as long as he casts a mass cure once in a while after Divine Punishment. I bet the Wiz/Soc likes having a Fav next to him more than a Cleric unless he pulls too much agro

Enjoy the game. It is more about the player behind the keyboard than any of this. And don't forget to get some sun.

[Habreno]

Not by any math you learned in grade school. Too many interpolated factors were used in your math to lend any kind of credibility to it.

Your cleric builds cannot beat these benchmarks or even come close to attaining all in one package, that I have on my first life WF Lord of Blades. First Life ELF Pure 20 Cleric.

600+ HP's. 539 HP, 579 if I go with a CON Yugo. And I'm using a CON-Penalized race, which is between 40 and 80 HP difference. Also still need 30 more HP from gear.
12DR standing, with 40 DR while shield blocking. 5/Chaotic. Not WF so I don't get inherent DR like you do. However, even moderately geared he hits over a 60 AC self-buffed and will be close to a 70 self-buffed when he's done gearing out. This leads to near an 80 buffed AC on a pure 20 Cleric, which is enough to stand up to most trash in most quests and raids.
2600+ sp's. 2141 SP when I swap in SP gear, 1951 without it. 12 TU's, which both regernate and are more useful as they are usable for a variety of things.
40 reflex save, 38 fort save (self buffed) and 31 will save. 36 Fort, 27 Reflex, 41 Will. Going AC mode these go to 40 Fort, 31 Reflex, and 45 Will, which means my saves beat yours in two of three cases, and are down 9 points in the third. On the average, in AC mode my saves are higher by 7 total points, or two points per save.
+53 to hit first swing with power attack on. Good enough to hit just about everything on a 2. Don't have Power Attack, but 15-20 X2 on GS Rapiers with a Seeker +8 effect is quite useful for a Cleric that is built to heal and offensively cast and does both quite well. Normal hits have BAB of 36 on first swing self-buffed. Damage is about 30-35 per hit without weapon effects. Coupled with a very large crit range and a Seeker +8 effect, this isn't a bad set of damage on a divine that can both heal AND offensively cast, which I know for certain your WF cannot do.
+58 damage modifier, not counting weapon effects.


All this from self buffs and ship buffs only. Add rage, haste, bard, arti buffs, past lives, etc for even better numbers.
Same thing here. Only buff I include that you probably don't is GH, as I have the ability to clicky that for 11 minutes for one click, and other clicks for the same effect, and can sustain GH for enough time to make it includable.

So much for your "challenge"
And yours is pretty moot as well.

Clerics can get the sp's this guy has, but gimps dps. Big misconception. Clerics have more effective SP than you do due to their TU's; I am not one to attempt to put a number on this, and don't think an effectively correct number *can* be put on this. Or a cleric can get the dps this guy has, but gimps SP's. Choosing to get slightly less DPS and a whole lot more utility. In no case can a cleric get the DR this guy has. Which is meaningless with an AC most trash mobs entirely miss, which, once I am finished gearing, I will have. As of now I still get misses in the majority of situations. Also in no case can a cleric have high numbers (for a divine) in terms of SP's, Has more effective saves, Not as high, but very solid saves HPs, Very close to your HP on a CON-Penalized class. I could get near 700 if I went with a CON-Benefited class like a WF, so this point is actually against you DPS Sacraficing some DPS for utility is the choice I have made and DR all in one package And once again, AC trumps DR when things can't hit you . Oh and on top of that, the FvS has much better elemental resists, True debuffs, Which do not stack with another Soul's debuff and divine punishment damage Exactly the same as a Cleric's, only when there is no Soul will the Cleric be lower in this regard. And when they raise the CL cap on DP, Clerics will out-DPS Souls on DP damage due to the two bonus CL they get on light and alignment spells (and healing spells as well) from Radiant Servant.

Link to build is in my sig.

Comments in Red above.

To be honest, sacraficing some DPS which is pretty low on a divine regardless of how they're built for a major bit of utility is quite a reasonable trade. So your build is not as useful as the one I have right now, and I've gimped my build with race as far as HP go and yours is buffed as far as HP go, and ours are close to equal. Plus, I have the survivability of no healing amp penalties and the ability to go with DPS or offensive casting or healing, while you are locked into DPS or most likely shaky healing, which is a major factor in end-game.

So honestly, a Favored Soul is easier to build better than *most* Clerics but a well-built Cleric will easily outstrip a Favored Soul. My build is above, and I challenge you to best it while maintaing the versatility that my build has. The problem is, Favored Souls are too pinned into two aspects and have to suffer too much in losses to get the versatility Clerics have.

[Mellkor]

and Mellkor conversation is starting to sound like:

- I have a cake.
- But i have a bigger cake.
- But my cake is as big as yours.
- Mine has better flavor.
- Mine have bestest flavor.
- Mine have a lot of butter.
- Mine cake IS a butter.
Etc...

LOL.


Well I am trying to have a civilized debate. I invite to post his build as I did so we can compare. The link he provided above to his build only generalizes and does not actually state numbers. This seems to be the case whenever he posts a link to his builds in other threads as well. I also invite him to rebut my rebuttals above, and provide the numbers and answers therein.

As I see it he threw down a "challenge" saying clerics were "miles" ahead of any FvS build. I proved this is not the case. I would like to see him make a cleric build to match the benchmarks stated above on my posted FvS build. All I have heard him say in this thread and others is that it could be done without actually spelling it out in a build that can be easily understood. If he did, please accept my apologies and provide a link. I have tried to make a cleric that matches those benchmarks, I could not do it. The closest I could come was a 18/2 pally splash. In the end, tho, in end game content, the WF FvS was just a lot more survivable whilst having arguably the same healing abilities in any quest.

I am not saying FvS are miles ahead of clerics, each has its strengths. That said, however, I find FvS's a lot more survivable with at least equal healing abilities, and therefor the better class to bring to any end game quest.