End game DC's and Spell Pen

[Drekisen]

Well, I have settled on the role I will play in DDO and it's a Drow PM.

I am very happy with it and I have nixed the insanity of trying to make an uber 3xFvS, 3xCLR, 3xSRC, 3xWIZ for the past life feats.

Honestly if a group wants a nuker they can hire a Sorc, if they want a webber they can hire an AM.

My goal is enchantment and necro, which leads to my question, after having all 3 free past life wiz feats I will have a naked 26 spell pen at cap.

Not planning on taking any spell pen feats on my last life and possibly maybe taking 2 of the spell pen enhancements. My ship is almost at the spell pen guy buff so that would give me 27 and 28-29 if I take one or two of the enhancements.

Plus I can always get a spell pen IX item which would put me at 29-30......is this suitable for most end game content.

What's the goal for necro/echant DC's end game as well?

Thanks for any replies

[Chette]

Thirty spell pen is a good goal, that will nab you pretty much everything except drow. With high 20s, you'll get 90% of epic trash. For necro, it depends if you want to level drain at all or not. There really isn't any "works all the time" number, as obviously fort saves vary drastically across the board. Most PMs aim for mid 40s. Enchant, I wouldn't know anymore, but pre U9 42+ was what most groups looked for if wanting a holder for epics.

[Four20]

30 is good

[TheDearLeader]

The Ship "Spell Pen Guy" doesn't stack with spell penetration items. Only the highest will take priority.

[scoobmx]

30 is fine. A little higher is still good to go for. Maybe invest AP into spell penetration and feats into DCs. Obviously use gear that gets you the best possible of both...

[Mrmorphling]

29-30 Spell penetration is good for most things,

The bare minimum goal for what cocnern DC should be 40+.

A classic PM with wiz PL can achieve 44 necro DC with +3 tome and +7 item with +3 exceptional and push it to 45 with litany and +4tome.

If you decide to spend 2 feats on enchant aswell (And by ditching Spell pen you should be able to afford them) you'll end up 1 short for ench so 43 or 44 depending on tome/litany.

If you are AM numbers don't change much you can either be the same or +1ench -1necro vs a PM with same equip and same feat layout.

[Drekisen]

29-30 Spell penetration is good for most things,

The bare minimum goal for what cocnern DC should be 40+.

A classic PM with wiz PL can achieve 44 necro DC with +3 tome and +7 item with +3 exceptional and push it to 45 with litany and +4tome.

If you decide to spend 2 feats on enchant aswell (And by ditching Spell pen you should be able to afford them) you'll end up 1 short for ench so 43 or 44 depending on tome/litany.

If you are AM numbers don't change much you can either be the same or +1ench -1necro vs a PM with same equip and same feat layout.

Thanks for the info I tried AM actually, I like PM way more.

[Malky]

+30 is fine for e-chrono/DA and elite amrath and that's where you really need it, drow mobs are out of the scope anyway.

That's what i have on my first life PM

[Qaliya]

29-30 Spell penetration is good for most things,

How does one realistically get that without wizard past lives or extremely rare gear?

Even if I give up Extend to take GSP as a feat and take the second enhancement to put me at +2 from that and get a +2 SP item, that still puts me only at 28...

[voodoogroves]

How does one realistically get that without wizard past lives or extremely rare gear?

wizard levels (20, say)
+4 for 2 feats
+2 item (not that rare ... the +3 items are rarer)
+3 enhancements

That's 29

You can push this higher with things like
- Wizard past lives
- FVS past lives
- Greater Spell Pen item
- Items that change your CL (arcane augmentation) for a particular school / savant / radiant servant / whatever

[FacepalmWTF]

To give you a specific example, in e-chrono it is typically expected of the caster to CC any abishai ASAP. Yesterday when I was scroll farming, for an abishai rolling 2 +30 on spell pen did not pass its spell resistance, but 6 +30 did.

[voodoogroves]

Even if I give up Extend to take GSP as a feat and take the second enhancement to put me at +2 from that and get a +2 SP item, that still puts me only at 28...

Just saw your edit ... the truth is, for a wizard to work well in epics / late game on a first life, they need to spend feats and AP on spell pen. If you are just farming shroud, etc. and going to TR - no big deal. If you've got other plans for dealing with SR-having mobs (ie, web, etc.) then you'll be ok as well.

[Qaliya]

I do have web via SF:Conj and the AM SLA.

The spell pen enhancements are of course an option but they are very pricey. That last +1 costs 6 AP. Just not sure it makes sense.

I guess wizard really is one of those classes where you need PL feats to be effective.

Thanks for the advice.

[voodoogroves]

I do have web via SF:Conj and the AM SLA.

The spell pen enhancements are of course an option but they are very pricey. That last +1 costs 6 AP. Just not sure it makes sense.

I guess wizard really is one of those classes where you need PL feats to be effective.

Thanks for the advice.

Nah, you don't need the PL feats to be effective.

I've got a first life, moderately geared WF PM - and he's got no problems in epics ... but I took the feats and AP.

Don't get discouraged by folks talking about how every random wizard is dominating the game - they aren't. Maybe that new wizard the guy with all the gear and spare shards/seals/tokens spins up to 20 and outfits with greensteel right away and decent epic kit will be, but the rest of us can't "own" all the content we step into.

For you, I'd suggest you not worry about stretching your spell pen and instead maybe work on the tactics a bit - that's something I enjoy and it helps. Sure, I can't finger the higher SR mobs like those multi-past-life dudes, but that's ok.

Anecdotal story. For a while I ran the house P epics pretty much daily on my wizard, always the easier ones - Small Problem since it's so long not quite as frequently. Anyway, a few times I had astonished people "oh wow what the heck are your DCs? Nothing is saving, you're holding everything!"

So I say what my DCs are. High 30s, 40-41 on Necro depending on the ship buffs I manage to have.

How can you own those quests with lower DCs? By knowing them and prepping the area. Debuffs rule for most content.

... but you can't really debuff SR easily ... and that's a pain. You can in PNP, FWIW.

[Qaliya]

Thanks, some good thoughts there and I appreciate it.

I'm planning to keep this char for 14 more Shroud runs and then TR into a melee. I guess I'll use this as a time to experiment around, and just accept that I won't be able to get into the really prime stuff.

[voodoogroves]

Thanks, some good thoughts there and I appreciate it.

I'm planning to keep this char for 14 more Shroud runs and then TR into a melee. I guess I'll use this as a time to experiment around, and just accept that I won't be able to get into the really prime stuff.

One way to learn, and this may sound odd, is to try to solo some epics. Like The Snitch. One day when you've got some time, grab a hireling and head into the first room. Figure out where the mobs spawn, set up your debuffs and clouds and see what you can do.

Start with overkill.

Summon something somewhat survivable like a Hezzy. Put a mind fog where each of the 2 groups spawn; toss a dancing ball on top of that. Web where the caster spawns. Put invisibility on your hotbar. Talk to the dude to start things off, tag invisibility and see if you can PWK the caster right off the bat. See how many of the trash you catch in your CC. Try to energy drain - finger them ... or mass hold and then zap them down.

etc.


Try to solo the front room of Wiz King. Try to hit the 3 chests in ADQ, killing the scorp room.

Solo epic Claw of Vulkoor, killing the giants but speed or stealth running the rest.

It may sound lame, and remember I'm a gimp player with mediocre-geared characters so if I can eventually manage it I'm sure you can. These things though are valuable and help you learn how to manage some situations better, how to shore up your defenses, how to amplify your strengths.

Keep pushing Snitch; see if you can solo up to Crateos. You can probably solo him with pots, but that's a pain.

Partycrashers can be solo-able too; see if you can find someone to tag along with and explain how.

Once you can do those sorts of things a few things open up to you. First, you're on the path to getting some decent epic gear, though maybe starter gear.

You don't need DCs to contribute in eDQ.

If you've got a rocking web DC, Bargain of Blood is doable too.

Don't sell yourself short ;-)

[danlan]

To give you a specific example, in e-chrono it is typically expected of the caster to CC any abishai ASAP. Yesterday when I was scroll farming, for an abishai rolling 2 +30 on spell pen did not pass its spell resistance, but 6 +30 did.

The thing is you have multiple ways to deal with abishai, and you do not need to CC them ASAP to survive unless you are a wiz not taking insightful reflex...

[Malky]

The thing is you have multiple ways to deal with abishai, and you do not need to CC them ASAP to survive unless you are a wiz not taking insightful reflex...

[ healers (among others) usually don't have high reflex save ] + [ abishais casting area nukes ] = raid doesn't care if you have IR or not, it's expecting you to CC them before someone dies.

[Drekisen]

Just in case anyone missed it I planned on acquiring all three WIZ past life feats.

I have other feats I value too much to lose them to having to take spell pen......so the grind to me will be worth it. I'm only doing Wizard and I am done.

I do have one more question tho, is it actually possible to purchase more than one active past life feat, like can I have a Bard Past life and Wizard past life active feat on the same character.

Tho I doubt I would do this as I would just give up GSF: Enchantment to take the Bard feat and I really would not be gaining much at all.

[danlan]

[ healers (among others) usually don't have high reflex save ] + [ abishais casting area nukes ] = raid doesn't care if you have IR or not, it's expecting you to CC them before someone dies.

I was refering to the scenario of scroll farming. And I was just clarifying that "you need more than 29-30 spell penetration to be effective in echrono" is ridiculous.