Spellsinger Enchant DC

[CanuckWisdom]

Hi,

Ive been working a bit on a pure spellsinger build as a suggestion for a friend's possible TR. Her guidelines were that she wants to be drow, a bard and likes crowd control such as mass hold, mass charm etc.

Perhaps I'll post the build in a later post, but I went for high Cha, enchantment feats etc.

I have two questions mainly: Does the bard past life selected feat, 3 songs, stack with total bard songs? Or does it just act to add +1 to enchant DC's?

and the other issue (what Im really looking for here) is, I can only seem to come up with a DC of 36 for her enchant spells. Im wondering if there is something Im forgetting that someone can suggest.

I only want to assume basic gear, as I dont know what gear she has (friends in the game, not RL). Here's what I have to make 36:

20 Starting charisma, 5 level ups, 2 enhancements, 2 capstone, 2 tome, +6 item = 37 charisma. +13 DC

(Obviously there are ways this could grow, but I am not looking for exceptional bonuses, +7 items etc because I am aware of those, just not adding them in, I am wondering though what else I am forgetting to boost DCs.)

Spell Focus Enchantment and Greater: +2 DC

Bard selected Past Life feat: +1 DC

Capstone: +2 DC (already counted charisma boost)

SS DC Song: +1

Enchantment focus item: +1 (again, she may even already have +2, Im not sure)

So, with heighten on (lvl 6 spells): DC= 36... right?

Lets assume +2 enchantment focus item, +1 and +2 exceptional Cha. +7 item could come but it would odd it the cha, without say a +3 tome.

So highest I can think of is 39 DC... Seems decent, but it would be nice to break 40, considering she would be on her 2nd life and fully focused on this. Is it just not possible to get much higher DC than high 30s on a SS?

Its not a huge issue if it wont go higher, as there are a number of quick ways a bard can lower will saves, but still.... I dont have much experience in epics, how would this DC hold up (without hypnotism, crushing despair etc being cast)?

Anything Im forgetting to include here? Oh right ship buffs... maybe another +1, considering our lvl 45 guild ship.

[CanuckWisdom]

The build is still rough, so dont take the enhancements etc too serious, I was planning on suggesting the necessities to her anyways and letting her do what she wanted with the rest, but here it is anyways:

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.11.01
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Wren 
Level 20 Neutral Good Drow Female
(20 Bard) 
Hit Points: 242
Spell Points: 1075 
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 9
Reflex: 12
Will: 11

                  Starting            Ending          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats         Base Stats         Modified Stats
(30 Point)       (Level 1)          (Level 20)           (Level 20)
Strength             12                 12                   12
Dexterity            10                 10                   10
Constitution         14                 16                   16
Intelligence         10                 12                   12
Wisdom                8                  8                    8
Charisma             20                 27                   31

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 20
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 20

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance               1                     7
Bluff                 5                    11
Concentration         6                    32
Diplomacy             9                    34
Disable Device        n/a                   n/a
Haggle                9                    34
Heal                 -1                    -1
Hide                  0                     8
Intimidate            5                    11
Jump                  3                     8
Listen               -1                     1
Move Silently         0                     8
Open Lock             n/a                   n/a
Perform               9                    34
Repair                0                     1
Search                0                     3
Spot                 -1                     1
Swim                  1                     1
Tumble                1                     6
Use Magic Device      9                    38

Level 1 (Bard)
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Bard
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 2 (Bard)


Level 3 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Past Life: Bardic Dilettante


Level 4 (Bard)
Ability Raise: CHA


Level 5 (Bard)


Level 6 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell


Level 7 (Bard)


Level 8 (Bard)
Ability Raise: CHA


Level 9 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Maximize Spell


Level 10 (Bard)


Level 11 (Bard)


Level 12 (Bard)
Ability Raise: CHA
Feat: (Selected) Heighten Spell


Level 13 (Bard)


Level 14 (Bard)


Level 15 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Spell Focus: Enchantment


Level 16 (Bard)
Ability Raise: CHA


Level 17 (Bard)


Level 18 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment


Level 19 (Bard)


Level 20 (Bard)
Ability Raise: CHA
Enhancement: Bard Extra Song I
Enhancement: Bard Extra Song II
Enhancement: Bard Extra Song III
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack I
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack II
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage I
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage II
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage III
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song I
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song II
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song III
Enhancement: Bard Spellsinger I
Enhancement: Bard Spellsinger II
Enhancement: Bard Musical Prodigy
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Improved Concentration I
Enhancement: Improved Concentration II
Enhancement: Bard Lyric of Song I
Enhancement: Bard Lyric of Song II
Enhancement: Bard Lyric of Song III
Enhancement: Bard Lyric of Incredible Song I
Enhancement: Bard Lyric of Incredible Song II
Enhancement: Bard Song Magic I
Enhancement: Bard Song Magic II
Enhancement: Bard Song Magic III
Enhancement: Bard Song Magic IV
Enhancement: Bard Improved Spell Penetration I
Enhancement: Bard Improved Spell Penetration II
Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music I
Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music II
Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music III
Enhancement: Bard Charisma I
Enhancement: Bard Charisma II
Enhancement: Bard Wand and Scroll Mastery I
Enhancement: Bard Wand and Scroll Mastery II
Enhancement: Bard Wand and Scroll Mastery III

Perhaps extend should be swapped for quicken? Spell pen? I figured with spell pen, she has songs, and its either go all or nothing... and couldnt afford to go all. Then again now that Im saying that I realize Ive spent AP on spell pen. Like I said, rough stages.

[Jaid314]

yugoloth potions could boost it as well.

but you are correct in observing that an enchant-spec spellsinger can't get particularly great DCs without ridiculous gear.

[Aashrym]

yugoloth potions could boost it as well.

but you are correct in observing that an enchant-spec spellsinger can't get particularly great DCs without ridiculous gear.

They get the same DC as a sorc or better counting the song a sorc cannot provide. Or better than a FvS would be able to get at range if the FvS wanted to do that. Or better than a Cleric would be able to get at any range if he wanted to do that.

No class gets particularly great DC's without the equipment with the exception of wizards and even then they might be up to 2 DC's higher.

A sorc has to either give up better self healing for a the same DC without the song or give up DC for a self healing WF. FvS's or Clerics do not make enchantment specs and the CC they do carry might be comparable in DC but again at best they have the same DC outside of the song. FvS does have a better relative DC in the aura.

Spellsinger bards with the capstone are not any worse off in the DC department and better than most.

[Jaid314]

Spellsinger bards with the capstone are not any worse off in the DC department and better than most.

better than most, yes. their DCs still aren't all that great without ridiculous gear. the fact that they're in the same boat as others in that regard does not alter the fact that it still isn't all that great (at least, not for challenging endgame content).

[Aashrym]

better than most, yes. their DCs still aren't all that great without ridiculous gear. the fact that they're in the same boat as others in that regard does not alter the fact that it still isn't all that great (at least, not for challenging endgame content).

No class has great DC's without the gear. 40 DC or 41 DC with trance on a spellsinger isn't a different DC than giving the same equipment and feats that would also be 43 on a wizard, 40 on a favored soul, 40 on a cleric, or 40 on a sorcerer. I don't know any enchantment spec clerics or favored souls but the actual DC does not disfavor spellsingers at all. At least in any content where the DC's don't suffice fascinate can still hit the highest DC's available.

The spell selection is much more of an issue and not the actual class or DC. Otherwise all casters and bards have bad DC's because they are not wizards. If you aren't first you're last? Every class can't be considered having poor DC's just because wizards have a bit of a jump.

[TheDearLeader]

better than most, yes. their DCs still aren't all that great without ridiculous gear. the fact that they're in the same boat as others in that regard does not alter the fact that it still isn't all that great (at least, not for challenging endgame content).

Three things:

1. I have a Water Savant, a Pale Master, a Spellsinger, and a Warchanter. Four different "casters", four completely different playstyles. You're trivializing the inherent differences within.

2. What part of Hoba's gear is ridiculous? His DC is 41, as illustrated above, and I'm just not seeing it.

3. Even before I had the DC, and just had a DC 38~39 his first life, he was still a fun toon, easy to play, and could fulfill his current role. Now he just does it better.

[Qezuzu]

37 CHA there. 40 with exc bonuses, 42 with a ship (borrowed, possibly), 44 with a pot.

Greater focus item isn't terribly hard to get.

That gives 41 DC, which is fine for most epics. Litany, a +7 item, and a +4 tome would give 43, but I'm not expecting those.

+7 CHA is available on epic Elyd edge and Shimmering pendant, which aren't very hard to get.

[CanuckWisdom]

Thanks for the replies guys. When I forward her the build Ill be sure to show the ways in which she can achieve a higher DC beyond basic gear.

[TheDearLeader]

I didn't see anyone answer your question about the Past Life, and the songs, so I will.

They are three Inspire Courages. They are separate, their own clickie.

However, they act *exactly* like any other Inspire Courage. Same bonuses to-hit, damage, duration, affected by your enhancements, can have Spellsong "burst" whenever you sing a song as Spellsinger II - all of it.

I love the past life on Hobadash. Click the link in the sig for his build.

Otherwise, here's a breakdown I'd done for a guy once via PM. It's for Half-Elf, not Drow, but should be mostly the same.

Enchantment DC:
10 Base
18 Charisma (42 Unbuffed, +2 Ship Buff, +2 Yugo Pot)
06 Spell Level (Metamagic Feat : Heighten means all spells are cast at highest possible spell level)
02 Greater Enchantment Focus item (Epic Elder's Cap)
02 Capstone : Bard (Enhancement)
01 Past Life: Bardic Dilettante (Feat)
01 Spell Focus: Enchantment (Feat)
01 Spellsong Trance (Song)
=DC 41 Enchantment Spells (Crushing Despair, Hold Monster, Dancing Ball, etc.)

Spell Penetration
20 Base, Caster Level 20
03 Greater Spell Penetration VI Item (Crafted Off-Hander, Greater Spell Pen VI of Major Healing Lore)
02 Capstone : Bard (Enhancement)
02 Spell Penetration (Feat)
02 Spell Penetration II (Enhancements)
01 Song of Arcane Heightening (Increases Caster Level by 1)
=+30 to overcome the Spell Resistance of enemy creatures.

So.. yeah. That's how the numbers break down.
My reference builds are HERE, Hobadash is the first post. It's pretty barebones - starting stats, feats, enhancements. MyDDO can tell you a little more about my standard equipment, although certain items are swappable.

Edit : For Funsies, later I may update with Concentration, Diplo, Perform, and UMD score breakdowns. Mebbe.

[CanuckWisdom]

I didn't see anyone answer your question about the Past Life, and the songs, so I will.

Excellent, very much thank you.

So, its basically 3 more uses, but needs to be placed separately on your bar, in effect. Cool, good to know. I have a 20 virt, not the same as this build but still might be personally useful.

[TheDearLeader]

Excellent, very much thank you.

So, its basically 3 more uses, but needs to be placed separately on your bar, in effect. Cool, good to know. I have a 20 virt, not the same as this build but still might be personally useful.

No problem. And yep, although on a Virt I'm sure you're used to having more songs than you know what do to with.

[CanuckWisdom]

No problem. And yep, although on a Virt I'm sure you're used to having more songs than you know what do to with.

Right now Im considering respeccing to 18/2 for evasion, because I like to melee but my HP are low. With so much song power Im thinking I should let go completely of CC spells to increase melee potential/survivabiliy.

ottos irresistable dance dc 75 is as easy as pushing 4 on the rainiest of days.

[Faent]

A 40 DC is achievable with ship buffs, +1 and +2 Exceptional CHA items, and Yugo pots. This is ok for most Normal and Hard content, but you'll want to use debuffs (e.g., Hypnotism, Crushing Despair) to drop mobs will saves in some of that content, and you'll definitely want it in a lot of Elite and Epic content. And this gets much harder on a bard. Ultimately, this is medicore CC in end-game content. But the bard will shine in the enchant-based CC department in non-end-game content.

[Jaid314]

it has nothing to do with being not the best DC, and everything to do with the fact that a 37 DC is not going to do well in challenging end-game quests, while 39-40 will do much better (and obviously 43+ does even better than that).

or, to put it another way: 39 DC is borderline low for something like, say, eChrono. 37 is just not even workable (and 42ish is quite effective).

a spellsinger can, with a relatively minor investment, hit DC 37 or so. which is fine for epic big top, and will have at least some effect in normal amrath, IQ, etc, especially if you open with some will debuffs such as hypnotism and/or crushing despair. but you're not going to be effective at CC with that in content like elite amrath (which you need for yugoloth potions) or similar. it simply isn't effective for that content, and that is true regardless of whether or not everyone else is equally ineffective except for wizards with similar gear.

that said, you are correct in that the biggest problem with a spellsinger in spell CC is a distinct lack of strong CC spells, especially in epics where charms and suggestions stop working entirely no matter what the DC is.

[CanuckWisdom]

Am I missing something? It looks like multiple posters have responded that bards do not have any unusual circumstance compared to other casters, except perhaps wizards.

If I am not mistaken, bards have -3 to all spell DC's because they only attain lvl 6 spells. Whereas sorcerers, clerics, favored souls and wizards all have lvl 9 spells.

Or am I missing something??? Bards DO have a lower starting point than other casters.

[TheDearLeader]

Am I missing something? It looks like multiple posters have responded that bards do not have any unusual circumstance compared to other casters, except perhaps wizards.

If I am not mistaken, bards have -3 to all spell DC's because they only attain lvl 6 spells. Whereas sorcerers, clerics, favored souls and wizards all have lvl 9 spells.

Or am I missing something??? Bards DO have a lower starting point than other casters.

Capstone.

You gain +2 Charisma, two additional uses of Bardic Music, as well as +2 to Spell Penetration checks and the DC's of your Enchantment spells. Your beneficial songs last 20% longer.

[CanuckWisdom]

Yea, that thought occured to me after posting.

Its my bad, as I dont play casters much and am not familiar with other castaer capstones but maybe cleric.

[aristarchus1000]

Hi,

Ive been working a bit on a pure spellsinger build as a suggestion for a friend's possible TR. Her guidelines were that she wants to be drow, a bard and likes crowd control such as mass hold, mass charm etc.

Note that bards don't get mass hold.

[CanuckWisdom]

oh yea. It was a while ago... she said mass charm. Note that I dont use spells much for cc on my own bard.