MAX DPS ROGUE build(assassin 3 str build/guide)

[destiny4405]

Funny, cause your posts imply that you think rogue's are nothing more than "MOAH DPS," when they are so much more than that.

maybe you should read them again.

[soloist12]

emg's are not boss beaters. you need an arti for it. and if you have it, you'll be still behind, cause you won't have deadly.

so are rapiers and handwraps. your point?

So if we're talking exclusively about bosses, what's your good/silver finesse boss beater that compares to x2 emg?



It really comes down to the fact that when you're doing 130ish SA dmg and 50 base dmg, what's another 5 for big tradeoffs? You might have 50-60 str to my 40 unbuffed dex, but that's only 5-10 dmg.

When you have 8 haste/human dmg boosts on a 21 sec cd for bosses, i'll take a high assassinate any day over a few points of base dmg.

Str is overestimated these days, especially on a class that has almost zero modifiers to base dmg.

[destiny4405]

So if we're talking exclusively about bosses, what's your good/silver finesse boss beater that compares to x2 emg?

not using weapon finesse, but these are finesseable:

+5 anarchic burst silver threaded handwraps (absolute ml 20) of GEOB.

EMG: 2[1d4] + 10 base damage, ~9 from disint per hit

wraps: 2[1d6] + 9 base damage, 3.5 aml 20, ~8 from anarchic burst, ~8 from holy burst (tod ring)

ahead, without counting attackspeed. for non splashes, holy burst rapiers would also do more. or at least, break DR.

It really comes down to the fact that when you're doing 130ish SA dmg and 50 base dmg, what's another 5 for big tradeoffs? You might have 50-60 str to my 40 unbuffed dex, but that's only 5-10 dmg.

When you have 8 haste/human dmg boosts on a 21 sec cd for bosses, i'll take a high assassinate any day over a few points of base dmg.

like i said, someone specializes for trash, someone for bosses.

[Qezuzu]

like i said, someone specializes for trash, someone for bosses.

INT rogues don't specialize for trash. They just realize that STR is not as important as people think it is for a rogue, since rogues get no bonuses for base damage. It's an additional 9.6 damage by my math. On a well geared rogue, this is less than a 4% increase in damage. Rogues have, by default, extremely high DPS, just from Sneak Attacks. Sacrificing 12 points of STR on a ftr/barb is ridiculous, because that's such a large portion of their damage; most of their damage comes from base. On a rogue, that's not the case.

DC 52 Assassinate is hilarious by the way. But if you're spending most of the time against bosses, you certainly won't benefit from Assassinate as much, and you're playing a completely different game where there aren't assloads of trash in every quest.

I mean, it's all just different play styles. Some people like bigger base damage, some people like the little red bleep that comes with a successful Assassinate, but the fact is that it's no where near as high as a DPS increase as you think it is. INT based and STR based rogues have almost the same effectiveness against bosses.

[soloist12]

INT rogues don't specialize for trash. They just realize that STR is not as important as people think it is for a rogue, since rogues get no bonuses for base damage. It's an additional 9.6 damage by my math. On a well geared rogue, this is less than a 4% increase in damage. Rogues have, by default, extremely high DPS, just from Sneak Attacks. Sacrificing 12 points of STR on a ftr/barb is ridiculous, because that's such a large portion of their damage; most of their damage comes from base. On a rogue, that's not the case.

DC 52 Assassinate is hilarious by the way. But if you're spending most of the time against bosses, you certainly won't benefit from Assassinate as much, and you're playing a completely different game where there aren't assloads of trash in every quest.

I mean, it's all just different play styles. Some people like bigger base damage, some people like the little red bleep that comes with a successful Assassinate, but the fact is that it's no where near as high as a DPS increase as you think it is. INT based and STR based rogues have almost the same effectiveness against bosses.

If he's doing 5-10 more base dmg, that's 2.7% to 5.5% vs. my 180ish per hit, not including disintegrates. I have 8 haste and human dmg boosts on 21 second cooldowns and sneak of shadows for another 10 snk dmg for bosses. Not that a strength rogue can't achieve all of this, but what's a few more points after all that. Not worth giving up dex/int/assassinate imo.

I can't wait until they fix exe strike.

[destiny4405]

I mean, it's all just different play styles. Some people like bigger base damage, some people like the little red bleep that comes with a successful Assassinate, but the fact is that it's no where near as high as a DPS increase as you think it is. INT based and STR based rogues have almost the same effectiveness against bosses.

i never said it was high DPS dps increase, or that there is big difference between max INT with good STR and STR builds, just that there is.

dex/int builds that don't have any str are a different story. they're condemned to use EMGs against everything, which is very poor weapon against anything that can't be sneak attacked.

[Aerendil]

dex/int builds that don't have any str are a different story. they're condemned to use EMGs against everything, which is very poor weapon against anything that can't be sneak attacked.

Why are dex/int condemned to eMGs for everything?

Between the to-hit and AC changes, and the change to Precision (+5% to hit, -25% fort), Rogues everywhere are reporting that they seldom miss now. Even if Int build, and wielding Str weapons.

Combined with Guile / eGuile, Shadowdancer tier5 ability (removes SA-immunity on target on a natural 20), and Bluff - you should be getting sneak attacks in on almost anything you run across.


So...the question is, if you're not *required* to put points into Str anymore - is it still worth it?
Or is it better off to put it into Int (for Assassins and Mechanics) or something else (such as Dex to qualify for epic Improved Sneak Attack; or Con for more hps / epic Toughness)?

[soloist12]

I have a 30 str to back up the 40 dex, so when i swap out, it's not the end of the world.

I can see it being an issue if you have less than 20 str. Even if dex to dmg comes out, you'll still want 16-20, which is extremely easy to get.

Unfortunately, it takes a decent amount of hit to reliably hit targets on elite, especially the bosses. I was seeing misses with rolls around ~100 - I want to say 20% on reds.*

If you have a low str and are int/dex based without finesse, you may hinder yourself on elite - with or without precision.

It's not a bad idea for a first life rogue to go str based, and plan dex/int the second life.


*it's pretty cool being able to tank said red bosses with so much evasion though, and 50%+ heal amp, and still sneak attack them while they're on you.

[destiny4405]

Between the to-hit and AC changes, and the change to Precision (+5% to hit, -25% fort), Rogues everywhere are reporting that they seldom miss now. Even if Int build, and wielding Str weapons

maybe on epic normal. should try harder difficulties.

and, sure, you can dump str if you don't care about damage.

[Rauven]

maybe on epic normal. should try harder difficulties.

and, sure, you can dump str if you don't care about damage.

Epic elite's not much different than epic normal. Been there, done that and haven't had problems hitting. I don't know why it is so difficult for some people to just accept that the differences between str, dex and int are minimal and trivial to the rogue's overall effectiveness.

[destiny4405]

Epic elite's not much different than epic normal.

that's not true. i'm sure you don't see many misses, but you should pay more attention to grazing hits.

and, what's trivial to you, might not be trivial to others and vice versa. imo, assassinate is trivial and not needed to complete any raid/quest.

[Rauven]

that's not true. i'm sure you don't see many misses, but you should pay more attention to grazing hits.

and, what's trivial to you, might not be trivial to others and vice versa. imo, assassinate is trivial and not needed to complete any raid/quest.

You're right, it is all opinion and we're not likely to come to a consensus.

[Aerendil]

maybe on epic normal. should try harder difficulties.

and, sure, you can dump str if you don't care about damage.

Wow, someone's a little condescending.

FYI - I'm toying around with Precision at the moment, and haven't spotted any issues up to epic hard with a full group. Epic elite grouped may become problematic, but we'll see when I get there I guess.

It probably comes down to playstyle to an extent - I prefer flanking (at which point I have +8 to hit, thanks to Shadowdancer on top of regular flanking bonus) as well as the +to hit from sneak attacking (+4 from sneak IV, +5 from backstabbing +5, and a further +3 from exception backstabbing +3). If you're tanking/have aggro, you lose a *ton* of to-hit from that alone.


PS - nobody said anything about dumping Str, either. Even if I choose not to focus on Str, I'm still going to have a starting Str of about 12-14. Going Str-build, I'd probably have a starting Str of 16. So that's a 2-4 difference, +6 from level-up stat allocation, for a total of an 8-10 point difference between a Str-focused build and a non-Str build.
+5 to hit, that's it. Not a huge deal if played like a Rogue; but perhaps so if played like a Barbarian.

[Qezuzu]

dex/int builds that don't have any str are a different story. they're condemned to use EMGs against everything,

No they're not.

which is very poor weapon against anything that can't be sneak attacked.

Nothing is immune to sneak attacks anymore, if you have Shadowdancer. Get with the times.

Boss Fort no longer factors in, since you can bypass all of it.

Undead/elementals/kittens are sneak-attackable with Shadowdancer capstone.

To-hit is easy to get, etc etc etc...

[Qezuzu]

that's not true. i'm sure you don't see many misses, but you should pay more attention to grazing hits.

Funnily enough, you get sneak attacks on grazing hits. And I'm pretty sure grazing hits don't even happen with TWF.

and, what's trivial to you, might not be trivial to others and vice versa. imo, assassinate is trivial and not needed to complete any raid/quest.

eSoS is also not needed to complete any raid or quest yet people still spend a lot of time to get it. 12 points of STR are also not needed to complete any raid or quest but people sure spend a lot of time saying STR is the only way to go for rogues.

If instantly killing two epic elite mobs every 9 or so seconds, in addition to whatever you beat down, is trivial to you, then what isn't trivial?

[Rogann]

PS - nobody said anything about dumping Str, either. Even if I choose not to focus on Str, I'm still going to have a starting Str of about 12-14. Going Str-build, I'd probably have a starting Str of 16. So that's a 2-4 difference, +6 from level-up stat allocation, for a total of an 8-10 point difference between a Str-focused build and a non-Str build.
+5 to hit, that's it. Not a huge deal if played like a Rogue; but perhaps so if played like a Barbarian.

You forgot about gear.

[Rogann]

No they're not.

Fine, emg's and epic envenomed blades.

[Qezuzu]

You forgot about gear.

Anyone can equip any piece of gear. You're implying base-12 STR rogues have, by default, worse gear, or that they neglect to get STR gear.

The only difference between a max STR rogue and base-12 STR rogue is 12 points of STR.

[destiny4405]

No they're not.

what else can they use? light maces with no damage mod?

Nothing is immune to sneak attacks anymore, if you have Shadowdancer. Get with the times.

Boss Fort no longer factors in, since you can bypass all of it.

Undead/elementals/kittens are sneak-attackable with Shadowdancer capstone.

To-hit is easy to get, etc etc etc...

so, you only rely on SA for damage even on monsters that you can't break DR?

Funnily enough, you get sneak attacks on grazing hits. And I'm pretty sure grazing hits don't even happen with TWF.

i guess you do rely only on SA for damage. and grazing hits do happen with TWF.

eSoS is also not needed to complete any raid or quest yet people still spend a lot of time to get it. 12 points of STR are also not needed to complete any raid or quest but people sure spend a lot of time saying STR is the only way to go for rogues.

damage is needed to complete raids and quests, hence the need for more.

If instantly killing two epic elite mobs every 9 or so seconds, in addition to whatever you beat down, is trivial to you, then what isn't trivial?

trash is trivial. i don't spend much time focusing on it. bosses aren't trivial.

[destiny4405]

snip

the post you quted before this one, specificaly said 'dex/int builds that don't have any str are a different story...'.

if you got some, then good for you.