Another warchanter bard build

[Adken]

Hi;

After i realized the skill points don't work like in PnP for multiclassing (i was so **** sure it was >.<) i thought i could make my bard a trapper too. My initial thoughts on it would be to stay pure, but two rogue levels add the traps stuff and also give him better dps without gimp the bard side (i only lose +1/+1 on the songs, no big deal).

So what i want is a decent dps, mainly on sneak attacks (with the proper gear i would have a bonus of 29-33 to damage on sneak attacks and a good bonus to hit), good survivability via UMD and a bit of healing amp, trap disabling and a huge help on raids (mainly tank buffing, with the songs and heroic companion) which includes imp sunder. I didn't want to make him TWF because it takes too many feats and i would have to drop the rogue past life, which reduces a lot the sneak attack damage bonus. I'm considering to get cleave instead imp sunder to sneak attack several enemies at the same time, which would be neat.
I didn't want to splash him to bard16/fighter2/rogue2 because i hope they release warchanter 3 (someday). And the mass suggestion song is nice too.

Any suggestion is welcome

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.09.02
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Redcliff The Sneaky
Level 20 True Neutral Halfling Male
(2 Rogue \ 18 Bard) 
Hit Points: 282
Spell Points: 576 
BAB: 14\14\19\24
Fortitude: 11
Reflex: 15
Will: 11

                  Starting            Ending          
Abilities        Base Stats         Base Stats        
(34 Point)       (Level 1)          (Level 20)        
Strength             16                 23            
Dexterity            10                 10            
Constitution         16                 18            
Intelligence         10                 12            
Wisdom                8                  8            
Charisma             14                 16            

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 6
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 6
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 6
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 6

                  Starting            Ending          
                 Base Skills        Base Skills       
Skills           (Level 1)          (Level 20)        
Balance               4                  4            
Bluff                 2                  3            
Concentration         3                 16            
Diplomacy             6                  7            
Disable Device        4                 24            
Haggle                4                  5            
Heal                 -1                 -1            
Hide                  0                  0            
Intimidate            2                  3            
Jump                  4                  7            
Listen               -1                 -1            
Move Silently         0                  0            
Open Lock             4                  4            
Perform               n/a               26            
Repair                0                  1            
Search                4                 24            
Spot                  3                  5            
Swim                  3                  6            
Tumble                1                  2            
Use Magic Device      6                 26            

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Rogue
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack


Level 2 (Bard)
Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I


Level 3 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons


Level 4 (Bard)
Ability Raise: STR


Level 5 (Bard)


Level 6 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 7 (Rogue)


Level 8 (Bard)
Ability Raise: STR


Level 9 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell


Level 10 (Bard)


Level 11 (Bard)


Level 12 (Bard)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons


Level 13 (Bard)


Level 14 (Bard)


Level 15 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Past Life: Sneak of Shadows


Level 16 (Bard)
Ability Raise: STR


Level 17 (Bard)


Level 18 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Sunder


Level 19 (Bard)


Level 20 (Bard)
Ability Raise: STR
Enhancement: Bard Extra Song I
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack I
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack II
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack III
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Bravery I
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Bravery II
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Bravery III
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage I
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage II
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage III
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song I
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song II
Enhancement: Bard Warchanter I
Enhancement: Bard Warchanter II
Enhancement: Halfling Cunning I
Enhancement: Halfling Cunning II
Enhancement: Halfling Cunning III
Enhancement: Halfling Guile I
Enhancement: Halfling Guile II
Enhancement: Halfling Guile III
Enhancement: Halfling Hero's Companion I
Enhancement: Halfling Hero's Companion II
Enhancement: Halfling Hero's Companion III
Enhancement: Halfling Hero's Companion IV
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy I
Enhancement: Improved Disable Device I
Enhancement: Improved Perform I
Enhancement: Improved Perform II
Enhancement: Improved Perform III
Enhancement: Improved Search I
Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music I
Enhancement: Bard Wand and Scroll Mastery I
Enhancement: Bard Wand and Scroll Mastery II
Enhancement: Bard Wand and Scroll Mastery III
Enhancement: Bard Wand and Scroll Mastery IV

[Gorbadoc]

After i realized the skill points don't work like in PnP for multiclassing (i was so **** sure it was >.<) i thought i could make my bard a trapper too.

Don't they? I think you're allowed to bank skill points between levels in PnP. What other difference from 3.5 are you thinking of?

My initial thoughts on it would be to stay pure, but two rogue levels add the traps stuff and also give him better dps without gimp the bard side (i only lose +1/+1 on the songs, no big deal).

Slow down there. You also lose the capstone, two additional uses of Bardic Music beyond that, a total of four points of spell penetration on your Otto's Irresistible (2 levels, 2 capstone), 2 points on the base healing of your Mass Cure Mod spell, a handful of spell points, and a couple spell slots.

Additionally, by pursuing trap skills with only two rogue levels, you force yourself to burn many of your bard skill points at the cross-class rate to keep your trap skills up. You can still fit UMD and Perform, and I see you chose to invest in Concentration (good call, though if you're planning to scroll-heal in a pinch, more is always better). You are giving up several other useful skills, though, from which you would otherwise be choosing. These include:

• Balance
• Hide, Move Silently
• Bluff, Diplomacy
• Listen (you don't have Spot either-- not the end of the world, but you'll either have to remember where the traps are or use the Barbarian trapfinding technique)
• Haggle (dunno how important that is to you. It will matter to someone who winds up reading this thread).
• Jump, Tumble (okay, while these have uses, they're more "for fun" than essential).
• Swim (okay, that one's a joke)

None of this makes an 18/2 bard/rogue split bad. You're dumping some utility/versatility/support ability for some other utility/versatility/support ability. That's a perfectly valid trade if it results in the character you want to play. I mention the above to make sure you go into the build with both eyes open.

So what i want is a decent dps, mainly on sneak attacks (with the proper gear i would have a bonus of 29-33 to damage on sneak attacks and a good bonus to hit), good survivability via UMD and a bit of healing amp, trap disabling and a huge help on raids (mainly tank buffing, with the songs and heroic companion) which includes imp sunder. I didn't want to make him TWF because it takes too many feats and i would have to drop the rogue past life, which reduces a lot the sneak attack damage bonus. I'm considering to get cleave instead imp sunder to sneak attack several enemies at the same time, which would be neat.

Don't get too excited about handling like a fighter or barbarian. For one thing, the they have the strength, hit point, attack bonus, enhancement bonus, and feat advantage on you. For another thing, Fascinate.

Regarding Fascinate, if you don't already know how it works, I recommend you learn BEFORE you roll this build. Roll a veteran status pure bard, take Extra Song I and II, throw on a +perform item, and go play around with Fascinate on Korthos.

You'll find that, with a high enough DC, you can consistently shut down entire swarms of monsters. At that point, you have a series of 1v1 fights, since only the monster you're attacking will hit you back. Given a choice, go for fast, focused damage over things like Cleave.

Once you get your Perform modifier up and a solid number of songs per rest, Fascinate can be treated as your signature move. You can be that guy who bounces ahead of the group turning the quest into a cake walk by mesmerizing everything, but who then ALSO proceeds to do his share of hacking monsters to pieces, and who can also spot heal. Oh, and you jack up everyone's DPS and disarm traps.

Enhancements
Enhancements are tight. That's actually an annoyance I've had with my halfling bard: Hero's companion is a great ability, but it's another 10 AP when I already have ample opportunities to spend AP on party-benefit stuff. It's also an aggravation on my 18/2 bard/rogue, as I want my bard stuff and my rogue stuff (it was an experimental TWF finesse build back when banishers were still cool). And, keeping with the same pattern, it's an annoyance on my THF Half Orc war chanter: I had to stop at Song Magic II to fit my racial weapon enhancements.

I recommend taking Music of the Dead and Music of Makers. They cost 14 AP total (10 for the Extra Song line, plus 2 for the songs themselves). They're well-worth the cost, though, once you master timing Fascinate (hint: it doesn't matter where you start singing it; the song checks for targets in its AoE ONLY at the very end of the song). Note that I say this right after talking about how short on AP you are. They aren't required, but they're good enough that I would make them a higher priority than, say, your last couple points of sneak attack damage.

You don't need Improved Perform unless it's a prerequisite for something (i.e. if you go Virtuoso, you need 2 ranks).

Regarding feats:
For war chanter, I personally like to go 1) Toughness, 3) Weapon Focus, 6) Power Attack. PA's DPS boost is small or nonexistent until you get your attack bonus up.

You started with 16 str. You may find you have better DPS if you go 14 str, 16 dex (and +1 tome), and take the full TWF line. To make room, you can dump Imp Sunder, Extend Spell, and either Sneak of Shadows of Weapon Focus. Think of your melee DPS as literally just that: If the weapon itself doesn't have a special effect (like a paralyzer), then your attack doesn't have a special effect. That's the fighters' and barbarians' job. YOUR job is to have cool support abilities, and to contribute some straightforward damage-per-second (and weapon effect) when not otherwise occupied.

If you do dump Weapon Focus, you'll have to go something other than War Chanter. Virtuoso is a solid choice for bards who are determined to cram in lots and LOTs of other stuff, since the prerequisites are relatively light. Spellsinger would be an interesting alternative as well: dump Power Attack for Maximize and plan to be a little more healing-oriented (more spell points, plus Song Magic/Lyric of Song are prerequisites).


I hope this helps. Good luck.

[karl_k0ch]

This should be considered to be an addendum to the extensive info from Gorbadoc above.

Having a 18 bard /2 rogue myself, I am not too impressed by his performance. It's nice, but nothing to write home about. But he's staying a that split until WarCh3 is released. I enjoyed leveling my 16/2/2 more than the leveling of Twiddler.

The Guile/Cunning line is nice, but even on my rogue I am reluctant to invest for the last tier.

Rogue splashes have so much synergy with TWF: High Dex is good for your Reflex save, the SA bonuses get applied to each weapon. The feat starvity can be compensated to an extend. Did you consider a different race than Halfling?

Edit: Though fitting in TWF, even on a human is too tight feat-wise, if you want to stick to SoS and Extend.

Btw: Twiddler chose Toughness, WF, PA, Maximize, Quicken, Extend, IC: Slash and Insightful Reflexes. How good is a no-damage on save ability if you never save?

[cru121]

I like the build. A few comments to enhancements. Drop Extra Song I and Improved Perform III. Energy of the Music is also not a must-have. Consider e.g. more lingering song.

[ferrite]

We can never have enough bard builds Although interesting, I'm not sure about this build.

But know that I've never been too impressed with bard skirmisher-hybrid-melee builds. Any of them. Sure they work fine in PnP with Horcs and all, but here in DDO they typically flop and flop hard. Yes I know the occasional 'But you haven't seen MY build blah blah..' comments but generally I feel the melee bard fits the following profile:

-low DPS output. You just can't compete with a front line DPS. At all.
-low AC. No shields/light armor restriction. You can up this, but at the cost of the above discrepancy.
-low HP. Bards have less overall. Same deal, at the cost of both of the above.

All of it begs the question: why DOES a bard want to be on the frontline at 20? The melees get distracted, the cleric certainly gets annoyed, the casters hate you for getting in their way.. it gets worse. Don't get me wrong I like the concept though, its novel, but just cant see a way to effectively do it amongst the hundred or so melee bard variants littered throughout these forums, besides the one or two standouts (classic rocker et al)

Personally I feel the best bard atm is a Drow 20 spellsinger, max cha. After that comes the Elf high dex virt/AA 16/2/2, splashes of ranger and rogue. Both of these builds attack at range and stay 'out of the way' providing excellent support for their role and MUCH less likely to get hit frequently and thus annoy and drain the healer's SP unnecessarily. Lastly are all these melee builds. the virt/AA has the additional benefit of evasion and some trap skills (but cant match the singer's awesome heals)

Well you asked for suggestions and so here is mine: No. However if you *really* want to melee bard then I advise you to do whatever it takes to pump up HP to max levels, and I do mean whatever it takes, at the cost of abilities, skills, whatever, as d6 is quite painful for any melee class and your cleric will appreciate it.

[karl_k0ch]

I wouldn't see the situation so dark, ferrite.

Let's see waht this build can get:

20 heroic
120 18 bard/2 rogue
160 +8 conmod from 24 con = 16 base + 2 tome +2 item
22 toughness
20 enhancements
20 toughness item
10 heroic
30 GFL
45 GS HP item
10 warchanter II
---
457

which is pre-ship, prerage, and premadstone. 450+ is a good HP value for a toon which has evasion, so the argument of the squishyness of a melee bard is not so grave. The survivability is increased further by self-sustained Displacement and Healing.

[Gorbadoc]

All of it begs the question: why DOES a bard want to be on the frontline at 20? The melees get distracted, the cleric certainly gets annoyed, the casters hate you for getting in their way.. it gets worse. Don't get me wrong I like the concept though, its novel, but just cant see a way to effectively do it amongst the hundred or so melee bard variants littered throughout these forums, besides the one or two standouts (classic rocker et al)

I know from experience the strengths and limitations of melee specced bards. I also know that melee-specced bards are more popular than offensive caster bards. Melee bards are highly playable. Below, I've jotted what I hope is some context for their limitations. First, though, I have to wonder what's making you think such negative things about melee bards.

Distracting melees? Annoying clerics? Getting in the way of casters? I don't think I've seen even a bad bard do all those things. Worst-case scenario, I find myself with a bard who fails to make use of his abilities. That speaks more to player ability than type of bard, though. Have you noticed a correlation between a bard's functionality and its type? Because, on Ghallanda at least, I find poor playing can afflict any bard build.

On the other hand, I have noticed an upper limit in the performance of caster bards. It's not their fault, of course: The class has the spell list it has, so no amount of twinking will make them effective against immune monsters. That is, unless they respec into melee bards, because DPS can kill even monsters with blanket immunities.


Context for melee bards' limitations:

Like Karl said, you can get decent hit points on a melee bard. Fighters get 80 more from levels and up to 40 more from enhancements. The bard's coping mechanisms include:

1. Letting the fighter get aggro.
2. Fascinating monsters, so with or without a fighter, you fight them one at a time.
3. Healing and buffing themselves, effectively increasing how much punishment they can take before they need a cleric's attention. Often, their self-healing is good enough that they never need attention from a cleric. To make this less theoretical and more tangible, consider that there are melee bards who can solo heal the entire party through epic quests.

Melee DPS is, I find, competitive with an unbuffed fighter or barbarian. There are two DPS targets, both of which are very attainable:

1. Have enough DPS to hold your own against <insert monster>. Rule of thumb: You want to be able to solo trash mobs in a full party and solo the boss when it's just you or you + hireling.
2. Increase the party's total DPS more than a fighter would. I.e. it doesn't matter that you personally contribute a bit less, because your buffs contribute so much.

[NovaNZ]

Hi Adken, et al.

Some good debate/ideas here.
A beauty of bards is the inherent versatility of build focus.

Re some of the views that Ferrite has noted - 1st life 32pt dwarf warchanter 14/Fighter 6 (SD) with full THF line can self buff up to 750 - 795HP, GA or DA& board (20% damage deduction), displace, UMD stoneskin, fire shield, heal etc) and some self healing.
Oh and sing their hearts out too!

I luv when a bard joins a group. Adds just a bit more spice for the whole group.

Adken - GL and much enjoyment with your alt.

[goodspeed]

I think of a bard as more of a jack of all trades while providing buffs that just really jack you up. My look on a spellsinger is why not just roll a cc archmage.

They're nice, they're fun, but it's like playing a evocation specced AM now. You look at what your doing, you look at that dark timer on your hotbar slowly agonizingly ticking away, and then you look over at that sorcerer lighting up the room with spells less then a second apart full on maxed empowered and heightened.

Sure that melee rouge isn't as all out dmg speced as that barbarian, or prolly the fighter to. But theirs also a tradeoff for that as well. Self reliance. Kind of like a fighter that threw some levels of cleric and made a bunch of greensteel clickies for his second life. Utility is nice, and bards got it in spades.