Pathfinder Online - How big a hit to DDO?

[Jaid314]

[color=lightgreen]Firstly the game has NO levels. so what a lvl 5 can do vs a level 20 is irrelevant.

it really doesn't matter what you call them, there will still be functionally the same situation. i don't care whether the difference is that one character will have 4 times as much skill in combat, or 4 times as many levels. the end result is the same.

[Symar-FangofLloth]

Pathfinder is not about building cities, mining or crafting.[/color]

Your Pathfinder might not be, but that's not true of everyone's. In fact, I think one of the published campaigns (Kingmaker) is almost entirely about building a kingdom. I haven't played it, and am avoiding spoilers in case I ever do, but that's what I gather.

Anyway, as long as they do have some princesses to slay and dragons to rescue, and its not entirely sandbox, I'll give it a shot. Which it sounds is the case.

Just like Cryptic did for Champions Online. The MMO became the next PnP ruleset.

I was thinking of that when I wrote it, however, didn't they make the game first, then as a last minute thing acquire Champions and adapt the game to the setting?


The lack of d20 for online games without Hasbro/Wizards involved is also a possible culprit for TOR not following the SWRPG rules, no?

[quijenoth]

Your Pathfinder might not be, but that's not true of everyone's. In fact, I think one of the published campaigns (Kingmaker) is almost entirely about building a kingdom. I haven't played it, and am avoiding spoilers in case I ever do, but that's what I gather.

Your probably right, kingmaker is actually the setting and inspiration for Pathfinder Online.

But then thats what Paizo do, create adventure paths for specific audiances. They have one which has an Urban save the city theme, one Pirate theme, and even one with full rules for creating and populating your own caravan!. My gaming group votes on the AP I run for them and Kingmaker was actually the first AP I didnt completely purchase (got the first one before cancelling my sub). Simply put, none of my players had any interest in political ruling and managing town resources.

Kingmaker is one adventure path with additional rules within it to handle its niche audiance. It certainly isnt in the core rules and doesnt appeal to the entire pathfinder audiance. This being the first pathfinder game, shouldn't it really cater for at least 90% of their existing audiance? Like basing the campain on Sandpoint and there first Pathfiner AP, Rise of the runelords?

I just feel they are missing their mark.

Reading some other posts on Pazio, their decision to create a new business (goblinworks) seems purely financial, to protect Pazio from any epic fail after launch. the more I read, the more i think this might be the case.

[Truga]

I haven't seen a new sandbox game since... A very long time indeed.

I'd really love a new sandbox game, but I'm not holding my breath for this. Too many games promised sandbox pvp, then simply failed to deliver. It's bizarre, how EVE, developed since 2001, is still the only one in the genre, while wow clones are sprouting everywhere (and mostly withering away after the first couple months).

I'm probably getting SWTOR myself (been a veeery long beta weekend :P), but I can't imagine staying after I finish a storyline or two. PVP is boring, space combat is non-existant (very bad for a starwars game in my opinion), which makes it a KOTOR game for 4 players, and sadly nothing more. I was hoping for struggles between the two factions. Apart form the center worlds, and the Seat of the Empire, everything should be up for grabs for any guild, much like everything in EVE is as soon as you leave empire space.

[JPDefault]

They don't have any choice.
There is no D20 OGL for online games. So they have to throw away the D20 system.
( or reach an licensing agreement wit Hasbro for a D20/D&D based MMO... and I don't think they want to open that can of worms )

I'm not sure about this, since WoTC explicitly stated that it's ok to use the OGL license to make videogames.

[Symar-FangofLloth]

Kingmaker is one adventure path with additional rules within it to handle its niche audiance. It certainly isnt in the core rules and doesnt appeal to the entire pathfinder audiance. This being the first pathfinder game, shouldn't it really cater for at least 90% of their existing audiance? Like basing the campain on Sandpoint and there first Pathfiner AP, Rise of the runelords?

I just feel they are missing their mark.

Oh, I'd rather have some big epic storyline as well.

Runelords is the only path I saw to completion, and I only played the second half of it. Crimson Throne we started but never got very far. And then the DM got burnt out on fantasy (after some nasty things some new players did).

I am hoping for some big epic Runelord boss fight somewhere, though, in the game.

[Uska]

All I can say is it sounds better than Neverwinter and at least its not in the better they were forgotten realms I hope its done by the time ddo is over. and I hope they take notes from ddo's combat system as well

[FoxbatStargazer]

I'm not sure about this, since WoTC explicitly stated that it's ok to use the OGL license to make videogames.

Then you read the parts in that FAQ that talk about "Section 8." Creating full and precise readable English documentation for all of those database and rule embellishments written into your code that change every other week is no easy feat. Not to mention how you ignore describing how levelup works to players that have never touched a D&D book before.

[JPDefault]

Then you read the parts in that FAQ that talk about "Section 8." Creating full and precise readable English documentation for all of those database and rule embellishments written into your code that change every other week is no easy feat. Not to mention how you ignore describing how levelup works to players that have never touched a D&D book before.

You don't need to create it, you need to provide it. Copy-paste from RTF documents freely downlodable from WoTC site works. Doesn't need to be part of your code: you can have a link to a web page from the game UI.
It has already been done in a commercial product.
If a low budget indie softwarehouse can do it, why not Paizo? They can, they just don't want.

[FoxbatStargazer]

You don't need to create it, you need to provide it. Copy-paste from RTF documents freely downlodable from WoTC site works. Doesn't need to be part of your code: you can have a link to a web page from the game UI.
It has already been done in a commercial product.
If a low budget indie softwarehouse can do it, why not Paizo? They can, they just don't want.

I'm poking around their site and having trouble finding anything butdetails on the classes and spells. Surely they have used more than just those if it's a full OGL game, like combat, bestaries, and so forth? And very likely not done a 100% implementation but fudged things here and there?

As far as I understand, if you modify open stuff, you can't just copy paste it. You have to post what is modified. When you change intimidate from a social skill into an threat-generating one, you would need to detail that. And then there's the question of how much you have to explain of how the AI works in plain english and not a turing diagram.

PFO has Ryan Dancey on board, the guy who freaking created the OGL. Maybe they are running more on what he knows the OGL's words and intent are than how Wizards would actually respond, but when people there declare an OGL game "likely not possible" I'm inclined to think they know what they are talking about.

[Zachski]

well that paragraph in itself kills any chance of my playing it. I don't do open pvp, too many jerks in the world who seem to think lvl 1 vs lvl capped is a good way to spend the day.

Agreed.

Non-con PvP = no no. That bad practice should've died out in the early stages of Ultima Online.

[Ghoste]

I doubt DDO will be around when Pathfinder Online actually comes out. It sounds like they're in the absolute earliest stages of planning it.

3 or 4 years AT LEAST before it's released.

From their blog:

Pathfinder Online: Coming Soon!
And when we say "coming soon," we mean "real soon."
We're leveraging middleware to reduce cost, development time and risk. We're making a sandbox-focused game with a launch target of 4,500 players on a slow but steady growth plan. We have access to Paizo's huge library of Pathfinder content—which gives us all the lore, factions, history, monsters, plots, and NPCs that we'll need. Because of these factors, I was able to rise to Lisa's challenge to create an efficient business plan that meets all of our goals. And one of the best parts of it is that it means our development plan is much shorter than traditional theme park MMOs require. Once we've begun full production, we'll be sharing milestones with the community so you'll be able to track our progress from start to release. We think you'll be delighted at the speed of the development process.

Not an expert, so I can't say what kind of quality to expect. They haven't announced what "middleware" they're using for the game engine yet either.

[Ghoste]

Firstly the game has NO levels. so what a lvl 5 can do vs a level 20 is irrelevant.

From Goblinworks blog:

Reaching 20th Level
It won't be easy or quick to reach the 20th-level capstone in an archetype. Some of the prerequistes for archetype merit badges will be hard to achieve and will require your character to succeed in some extraordinary adventures. In terms of sheer time, I'd like to see the first 20th-level characters emerge around two-and-a-half-years after launch. Capstone-level characters should be unique, powerful individuals not commonly encountered.

They've explained how leveling exactly like you do in pen and paper doesn't translate so well to a computer game, according to them, but they certainly have not at all stated that there won't be any levels. Read some more from their blog and you'll see they're just talking about a more complex system for experience and progressing. The end result is still gaining a level in a class.

[Ghoste]

well that paragraph in itself kills any chance of my playing it. I don't do open pvp, too many jerks in the world who seem to think lvl 1 vs lvl capped is a good way to spend the day.

They're trying to make the penalties for PvP near civilized areas VERY heavy. Take a look at their blog and see what they've suggested. If it's not good enough, in your opinion, feel free to swing by their forums and let them know what you think.

[dkyle]

Hate to say it, but this smells an awful lot like vaporware. No-name developer, and a grand, extremely ambitious, but rather scattered vision.

But even if it releases, it is a completely different kind of game than DDO. I doubt there'll be much competition between the two. Neverwinter is more concerning, as it sounds like a much more similar game, but with the FR expansion, it sounds like WotC's backing is with DDO.

[Krell]

well that paragraph in itself kills any chance of my playing it. I don't do open pvp, too many jerks in the world who seem to think lvl 1 vs lvl capped is a good way to spend the day.

Reminds me of the Asheron's Call Darktide (PvP) server back in the day. Create a new character, zone in, thunk. Gang of d00dz waiting at all the newbie spawn points. Rez at the Lifestone, thunk. Gang waiting there too. I'd create characters in the middle of the night then quickly run off into the woods for a solo leveling existence until I was a high enough level to be considered for a guild. Entering any town for supplies was a very risky mission.

Definitely more exciting than PvE, but by design a griefer paradise that not too many people could handle.