metamagics selection?

[katz]

question for the more experienced offensive casting clerics (or FvS of course) out there...

if given that maximize will be present and enhancements will be slanted more towards healing instead of smiting, what is a better "other" metamagic. heighten for better DCs on some of the insta-death spells, or empower for more damage from BBs and such?

i cannot fit both in my build. so one or the other, please

[PNellesen]

question for the more experienced offensive casting clerics (or FvS of course) out there...

if given that maximize will be present and enhancements will be slanted more towards healing instead of smiting, what is a better "other" metamagic. heighten for better DCs on some of the insta-death spells, or empower for more damage from BBs and such?

i cannot fit both in my build. so one or the other, please

I have a Pure Max WIS Cleric with both metas. Honestly, I can't say which one I'd want to give up. Heighten really helps him land insta-kill spells against high level mobs. Max/Empower are really nice with Divine Punishment and other no-save damage spells (and all 3 turn Blade Barrier into a Cuisinart )

Ok, if I had to choose in your case, given that you appear to be primarily healing specced, I personally would probably go with Empower to beef up Divine Punishment and other damage spells (and it also applies to your Cures)

[Firesmall_at]

Empower for mass cures with maximize, and empower heal. It is more sp for mass cures, but quicker than mass heal when mass heal it is cooling down. I think most prefer empower over heighten for BBs too. Empower for divine punishment (your raid weapon).

Don't know what your build is and the feats your are taking verse heighten, but if u want to crowd control then take heighten. I would take heighten over extend.

Really you need to give more details of your build.

[morticianjohn]

Don't take the crit line of healing enhancements and you'll have plenty of AP for smiting.

To echo the others I would take empower because while insta-kill is nice BB/DP is more reliable. Also insta kill means you'll have to focus a bit on DC. Besides heighten you'll want gear for DC improvement, spell focues and more.

[Chette]

What feats do you have already such that you can't fit both in? I wouldn't want to be without either on an offensive casting divine. Without empower, your blade barriers and dots are rather under powered, and without heighten you won't be doing much in the way of crowd control or insta-kill in high level content.

Maximize
Empower
Empower Heal (for PrE)
Quicken
Heighten
Toughness

Those are, IMO, the must haves for an offensive casting cleric. With really good HP gear you can even drop toughness. Fill in the rest as needed with spell pen or spell focus feats.

[Jiirix]

If I had to choose between highten and empower on my cleric I would take empower. The best instand death spell of clerics (implosion) doesn't profit from highten and empower is nice for all the damage spells and the bursts.

[katz]

Don't take the crit line of healing enhancements and you'll have plenty of AP for smiting.

To echo the others I would take empower because while insta-kill is nice BB/DP is more reliable. Also insta kill means you'll have to focus a bit on DC. Besides heighten you'll want gear for DC improvement, spell focues and more.

If I had to choose between highten and empower on my cleric I would take empower. The best instand death spell of clerics (implosion) doesn't profit from highten and empower is nice for all the damage spells and the bursts.

excellent points. empower it is. thank you


and for the questions, i will not be really focused heavily on offensive casting, i just wanted to get a bit more out of it than the LAST life. build will be an AA clonk. only Maximize for damage makes for pretty pathetic BBs and DPs. >.>

[PNellesen]

only Maximize for damage makes for pretty pathetic BBs and DPs. >.>

Well, if you think a Maximized-only BB does pathetic damage, you should see what it's like without Max either (My first Cleric didn't have it until he hit level 18... and I wondered why he couldn't kill stuff )

[MRMechMan]

It's been shown that against non-evasion mobs, heighten is ALWAYS a sp/damage lowering metamagic for blade barrier-15sp for +3 DCs just isn't efficient as they take 1/2 on a fail anyway. It might be OK on the fvs spell pool, but on a cleric I would never heighten a BB.


Heighten-
It adds 0dc to implosion, 2dc to destruction, 3dc to symbol of persuasion and cometfall and blade barrier, 4dc to slay living, 7dc to soundburst.

If you want to cast a LOT of those spells where DCs matter, heighten is a good choice. Personally only destruction and maybe cometfall matter to me really out of the ones that gain a lot...2 DC and 3 DC to 2 spells isn't worth a feat IMO. Never been a fan of heightened soundburst-rather just have the arcane make them dance as will save is easier to target, and you are better off just destructing casters in epic rather than stunning them for a few seconds.

For an arcane they have more spells that gain from it-circle of death, finger, web, discoball, hypno, all sorc SLAs, many archmage SLA, etc. Not as much on divines.

Empower is amazing with your BEST 2 offensive spells-Blade Barrier and Divine punishment. So that is probably a better choice.

But take both if you can.

[katz]

Well, if you think a Maximized-only BB does pathetic damage, you should see what it's like without Max either (My first Cleric didn't have it until he hit level 18... and I wondered why he couldn't kill stuff )

lol ouch. what were you tryin to do man? tickle them to death?

[morticianjohn]

lol ouch. what were you tryin to do man? tickle them to death?

I soloed elite sins on a cleric with no maximize or empower. It only took ~ 2 hours

[Firesmall_at]

I still use soundburst for long range mobs that are hard to get too that are using range weapons.

Very effective with heighten and still cheap in sp to justify. BB is close in, and Divine punishment is a single target cast. Cometfall works too I guess, but more expensive, and a smaller AOE I think.

[The_Great_Samulas]

I would get heighten and not look back. I would recommend this to all clerics that want to offensive cast, but in your case particularly so.

The benefits of empower are quite minimal - at the cost of additional mana for casting. Your BB can kill anything you want with maximize (I can solo kill every mob in epic Against the DQ on the platform with just maximize - and it doesn't go noticeably faster with empower). On the fights you need empower for DP on, you probably would be better served saving that mana for other things. The benefits of heighten are exceptional. +2 dc to destruction. +4 DC to greater command. +3 DC to commetfall. +3 DC to BB. You can use slay living for extra necro umpf, when it is too underpowered otherwise at end game. I only take empower on arcanes, where you are dedicated to offensive casting as your primary goal. Clerics/FvS have a significant dedication of their mana pool to other duties. IF you had the extra feat, I would take spell focus necromancy or evocation NOT empower.

You know people go through 3 past lives in classes just to up their DCs in ONE school by 3? I did two sorc past lives on my cleric to up implosion and BB DCs. Heighten does way more than this on important spells.

[guardianx2009]

I would get heighten and not look back. I would recommend this to all clerics that want to offensive cast, but in your case particularly so.

The benefits of empower are quite minimal - at the cost of additional mana for casting. Your BB can kill anything you want with maximize (I can solo kill every mob in epic Against the DQ on the platform with just maximize - and it doesn't go noticeably faster with empower). On the fights you need empower for DP on, you probably would be better served saving that mana for other things. The benefits of heighten are exceptional. +2 dc to destruction. +4 DC to greater command. +3 DC to commetfall. +3 DC to BB. You can use slay living for extra necro umpf, when it is too underpowered otherwise at end game. I only take empower on arcanes, where you are dedicated to offensive casting as your primary goal. Clerics/FvS have a significant dedication of their mana pool to other duties. IF you had the extra feat, I would take spell focus necromancy or evocation NOT empower.

You know people go through 3 past lives in classes just to up their DCs in ONE school by 3? I did two sorc past lives on my cleric to up implosion and BB DCs. Heighten does way more than this on important spells.

I agree with Great Samulas. I swapped out empower and never looked back. Yes everyone likes big numbers and it's hard to give up. I was once torn between the decision to drop empower also. But I did it and since, I never at any time feel I wish I had empower.

On the other hand, Heighten & Maximize are almost essential and are never turned off. Slay Living/Destruction are far more effective at end game than damage spells when mobs have over-inflated HP's. Yes implosion is your best insta-kill spell, but it has a long cool-down. Use of Enervate/Slay Living/Destruction in between is a lot of times, far more effective.

[Firesmall_at]

Sorry but especially now that you can assign metas to specific spells and have them all on for free for your bursts and Auras I just gotta keep the bursts maxed out. Can't drop empower. Bursts rock for low to mid level content. I have single healed raid Tempist Spine because of it. And with a melee cleric where u will be in the thick of it... I just can't.

[goodspeed]

Id go for beefing BB alone. It's like saving sp. If you had all the sp in the world then ya pointing and killing stuff like a pale is great. But even sorc's and favored don't have that sp (well most ive seen some off the charts sp before) And in that time you jack up an aoe and cast it. Then it's all about the run around.

BB gives you dmg without having to keep wasting sp. All the while you can melee or heal yourself.

[Meat-Head]

If I had to choose between highten and empower on my cleric I would take empower. The best instand death spell of clerics (implosion) doesn't profit from highten and empower is nice for all the damage spells and the bursts.

This.

But I WOULD want both.

Destruction is awesome for 2 reasons. First, insta-killing feels awesome.. because it is. Also, the wicked looking skull graphic and the sound it makes is waaay cooler than finger of death or even wail IMO.

[Meat-Head]

It's been shown that against non-evasion mobs, heighten is ALWAYS a sp/damage lowering metamagic for blade barrier-15sp for +3 DCs just isn't efficient as they take 1/2 on a fail anyway. It might be OK on the fvs spell pool, but on a cleric I would never heighten a BB.


Heighten-
It adds 0dc to implosion, 2dc to destruction, 3dc to symbol of persuasion and cometfall and blade barrier, 4dc to slay living, 7dc to soundburst.

If you want to cast a LOT of those spells where DCs matter, heighten is a good choice. Personally only destruction and maybe cometfall matter to me really out of the ones that gain a lot...2 DC and 3 DC to 2 spells isn't worth a feat IMO. Never been a fan of heightened soundburst-rather just have the arcane make them dance as will save is easier to target, and you are better off just destructing casters in epic rather than stunning them for a few seconds.

For an arcane they have more spells that gain from it-circle of death, finger, web, discoball, hypno, all sorc SLAs, many archmage SLA, etc. Not as much on divines.

Empower is amazing with your BEST 2 offensive spells-Blade Barrier and Divine punishment. So that is probably a better choice.

But take both if you can.

You forgot Greater Command- No small thing to leave out imo.

[MRMechMan]

You forgot Greater Command- No small thing to leave out imo.

Yep, that's a winner.

I am considering taking heighten this life...played around with slay living for the first time and am loving it...along with destruction its like having 2 fingers! It kicks phantasmal killers A$$! Really not sure how I passed it by fvs life...

The touch range is rarely an issue.

Empower is still nice on cleric though for the burst healing. So not sure.

[PNellesen]

lol ouch. what were you tryin to do man? tickle them to death?

What can I say - my very first character, who I thought would be a "Battle Cleric" and not need spells, he'd use that awesome +5 Flaming Longsword and +3 Densewood Shield he found at level 9 or so all the way to 20!

(And no comments from you, Cam_Neely!!!)