Toven's Hammer Mechanics

[cforce]

Most of the rune arm shot types fall into one of two types:

A- Single target damage, but you get multiple bolts/shots, one per charge tier (with each bolt giving the full damage indicated in tier descriptions, so a tier 5 charge gets 5x what's listed in the tier damage description if all bolts/shots hit)
B- Area of effect damage, only one area blast (all targets in range get 1x the damage listed in the tier description)

In a separate thread (here), there are a few vague comments that I'm trying to get some clarification on.

First, 7-day_Trial_Monkey seems to imply that Toven's Hammer fires multiple projectiles at charge tier 5 (5 assumed), *but also* that each projectile does area of effect damage. Can anyone confirm or deny this? Does Toven's Hammer do damage at the higher 5x listed rate for charge tier 5, but also do that damage to everyone in an area?

Second, Shade implies that the description for Toven's Hammer may not be accurate, and that it actually does less damage than the listed numbers. Can anyone confirm or deny this?

I'm leveling up my own artificer and making some decisions around elemental specs/force specs, and would love a little additional information around this -- thanks!

[Dark-Star]

Cforce, the Hammer is single target only. The damage seems to work properly for me, if anything it does more than I expected. Rune Arms, when used properly, add a lot of DPS to Artificers.

[djsonar919]

First, 7-day_Trial_Monkey seems to imply that Toven's Hammer fires multiple projectiles at charge tier 5 (5 assumed), *but also* that each projectile does area of effect damage. Can anyone confirm or deny this? Does Toven's Hammer do damage at the higher 5x listed rate for charge tier 5, but also do that damage to everyone in an area?

I'll state my experience with Toven's:

- Toven's fires 5 lighting balls when fully charged.

- The five balls are launched in pretty quick succession and depending on the angle you are looking at, the blast could look like one ball fired.

- When locked onto a target the blast from Toven's does not do AOE damage, unless the target moves and another mob is hit from a subsequent lightning ball. Because of what I stated above, this could appear like AOE damage on the player's screen.

- When the blast is fired into a crowd and no mobs are targeted or locked on, then Toven's does do AOE damage, but the damage and blast radius is terrible.

- I would definitely invest points into your force line. It maximizes your BB damage, and adds massive damage to Lucid Dreams.

- I have leveled an airship dummy with one fully charged Lucid Dreams blast, several times. I have never accomplished this with Toven's.


Hope this helps out.

[cforce]

- I have leveled an airship dummy with one fully charged Lucid Dreams blast, several times. I have never accomplished this with Toven's.

To be clear here, I'm assuming this is because you've got more enhancements and items for amplifying force damage than electric damage? If you're saying that, with equal investment in enhancements and items, you can level it with one and not the other, that would be pretty interesting. (Possibly even bug report worthy?) Leveling the dummy in one blast with Lucid Dreams would presumably require multiple shots (maybe even 3+?) to crit. Putting leveling the dummy aside for the moment, what is the range of non-crit damage numbers you see on the dummy w/LD? w/Toven's? Which enhancements/items do you have adding to damage?

[cforce]

As an aside, it's more than likely I'm going to make investments in a few different lines, in the end. I like having the flexibility to switch to another rune arm when one is ineffective (either due to immunities, shot geometry in constricted space, targeting weak saving throws, etc). More of what's on the table for me is the *degree* to which I'll diversify. Going deep in force will almost certainly be the case; some depth in lightning and acid, most likely, will also be on the table...

[djsonar919]

You are correct about the enhancements. I put every bit I could into the force line, the dummy was "helpless" and I also scored 4 crits out of 5 shots at least when one-shotting the dummy. However, I also did this with the lightning line as well. I just didn't get the same numbers that I get with Lucid Dreams. In non-crit situations Lucid Dreams still does a pretty insane amount of damage. Each little force ball has about 150 - 350 damage on a non-crit. Toven's seems to hit around 100 - 250, sticking right around the 180 - 220 mark most of the time.

Before I TR'd, I always kept force maxed out but I used LD and Toven's for different situations. I use LD for trash most of the time because the blast tracks it's target, it's fast moving, and seems to have a longer range. LD is also great for extra damage against raid bosses that you need to take down ASAP, (Like Lailat and the Abbot). I use Toven's for bosses that are not immune to lightning. To compensate for the lack of enhancements in lighting, I throw lightning motes on the target. This makes Toven's blast hit harder, the lightning strikes from LitII's hit harder, and Arcanes DOTs hit even harder than they do now. So it's a win - win.

In the end, both rune arms are great assets to have in an Arti's arsenal. The damage output from both is very significant and can definitely help out in your end game DPS. Which ever line you ultimately choose to go would yield you impressive numbers, so it's basically whatever you feel is best for you.

[Deathdefy]

I've tried both Lucid Dreams and Toven's, fully specced out in each.

My experience is certainly that Toven's listed damage is 'correct'. It also definitely does AOE damage with every bullet. That damage can be further enhanced by Lightning Motes.

The "Lucid Dreams does more damage" idea comes from the fact Lucid Dreams blasts target a mob's will save, which often is low enough to consistently fail at least 1 or 2 out of 5 bullets' save.

Toven's Hammer's problems are that it's electrical damage meaning Tieflings and Demons are resistant and immune respectively, and provides a reflex save - meaning blasts can be outright 'evaded' by some creatures, and are often saved against generally.

But... try it in eFens; it is spectacular against the packs of closely grouped epic mobs in there sahuagin/trolls/scorps. I'm certain the AOE size is exactly the same as that of lightning motes. The trick is to make sure it does AOE properly, which you only get by playing around with it, but can definitely be performed reliably once you've done a few quests. It definitely has destroyed 8 held scorpions in eClaw for me simultaneously before.

It's also great in eDA, and eSentinels, as well as everywhere without Tieflings/Demons/a majority of evasion mobs.

Like Shade correctly says, being force specced means your Tactical Detonation and BB are better. But, it's not the huge difference (except on crits), that you'd think, and you just don't have the mana to do that many emp/max BBs or TDs in a party quest.

Going full lightning spec + 1/1/1 force won't 'gimp' you, and I consider it optimal if your major focus is on doing epics in a party. If you're focusing on soloing, full force is optimal for better BB beatdowns since you can't stand still long enough to get to their 5 tier charge of Toven's reliably.

Yeah, so I blathered on a bit sorry. Currently I'm force specced trying to do well solo on the challenges, but as soon as I'm over them I'm going back to 1/1/1 force and the rest lightning for epics.

[wax_on_wax_off]

I'm not sure that 1/1/1 in force is an optimal setup. 3/0/0 probably gives more damage and 1/0/0 is fine too. My options for speccing in enhancement lines is:
7/5/5: required for sorcerer savant PrE (I don't go to 6/6 as better things elsewhere)
7/1/1: secondary specialty
1/0/0: minor