Theorybuild - The Master of Epic Deception

[Arlathen]

Theorybuild - The Master of Epic Deception

This is the second in a series of Theorybuild posts where I've taken some fairly incredibly obscure idea's into some kind of workable build.

This idea started around a discussion I had where it was debated 'what kind of build/character would you put together if could give that build an Epic Sword of Shadows'. Of course the usual suspects turned up - The Pure Barb FB3 build, the Kensai3...and err, thats about it.

So instead of trying to fit the sword to the build, what about going the opposite way? How could the Sword be argmented in such as way as to make it even deadlier to use against a broad range of enemies? How to trump opponents fortification on a Build that uses the eSOS, or get adiditional damage onto a sword that can be expanded through pretty much taking a DR/Good Augment slot and thats about it.

So colour me wild, I looked at a Rogue template

*And the masses of disbelievers exit right*.... Still reading? Good.

As in, how about additional Sneak Attack Damage? The Sword is deadly enough, how about adding a truck load of untyped sneak damage? And as already mentioned what if the build could break the Fortitification of enemies sufficiently in a Solo/Group/Raid state so that you can single handedly improve the Criticial damage output of the Sword?

Following on from these two idea's, i looked at how to deal with Aggro management.

• 1 - Bluff. The obvious choice, your toe-to-toe with a single enemy, hit Bluff and you have your attacks Sneak enabled for the next 6 seconds, as well as dumping some of the aggro generation.

• 2 - Diplomacy. Dump all the aggro you have immediately, onto your faithful party/raid members. If the Mob isn't focused on you, then Sneak Attack-ville, baby.

• 3 - Treason & Subtle Backstabbing IV. You've got rid of Aggro, don't gain it again by maxing out the potential Threat Gen Mitigation through Tinkers Goggles/Set and taking Subtle Backstabbing IV. Fact Checked: With both Treason and SBIV, your threat will be reduced to 48% of normal amount generated.

• 3.1 - Deception & The Ring of Lies. Another way to auto-generate Sneak attacks is through Deception items. And with the new Ring of Lies having Deception built in, and its upgraded version with Improved Deception, a very nice place to fit this in alongside the ESOS. As an extra kicker, having Deception equipped also gives a bonus to your Bluff skill. (Thanks to Karl-Koch for the comments)

• 4 - The party peice - Intimidate & Cleaves. Bounce along the pack, hit Intimidate to initially draw a pack towards you, then hit Diplomacy to dump that aggro and have the mobs look for anew target. in the next split second, hit Cleave/Great Cleave and watch your Sword pound the pack of mobs with a Mass of ESOS and Sneak Damage.

And think of the Red-Named/Raid Boss DPS - Bluff-Cleave-Diplomacy-Great Cleave then Swing away. ESOS Sneak attacks ftw.

So a build that uses all three Social skills?! That calls for a Half-Elf racial choice, and with it DUAL timer availability for each of the skills.

Now onto the Fortification problem...

Well, the best Fort reducing ability in the game currently is the Angel of Vengenace's Crown of Retribution. 10% chance to proc a -10% reduction in fort on being hit. Although hang on a second, we're doing everything here to to minimise Aggro generation and *not* get hit in the process. Answer: Name Champion. Let the big 'ard Shield Tank take your crown and do all the work for! With the Bluff/Treason/Subtle Backstabbing reduced Aggro output, you will not maintain any kind of threat for long vs. extended fights against Red-names and Raid Bosses.

And of course, there's Improved Sunder. Half-Elf allows us to take Fighter Dilletante for +2 DCs, the AoV Aura gives us an effective +2DCs, Epic Spare Hand Belt allows us another +5DCs and as were Strength focussed for THF we can establish quite a decent Improved Sunder DC. Not to mention you can stack it up for another +15DC over time, and then bam its another -10% Fortification for your enemy.

And also of course, with sufficient Rogue levels, there's Opportunist. ANOTHER 10% chance to bypass Fortification, and its now confirmed that Opportunist allows you to get Sneak Attacks on otherwise Sneak-Immune mobs (tested personally on Shroud Portals post U12).

Filling in the Gaps...

So were looking realistically at a Rogue 13/FvS6 minimum as a build, that would allow us access to Assassin 2 (an additional +2D6 Sneak), AoV1 for the Aura, as well as 2 Rogue Feats and base +7D6+12 Sneak Damage and Subtle Backstabbing IV.

Primary atribute choices would be Strength, Constitution, Intelligence(!?) and Charisma. No point taking Dexterity I think, as there's no AC to speak of here and Insightful Reflexes fixes the Reflex Save issue. A higher intelligence means more skill points, so maxed out Social and Trap skills as well as things like Jump/Balance/UMD.

About those Favoured Soul levels...

Yeah, apart from AoV1 they don't do a huge amount for the Build . The BAB progression is the same as Rogue, but rather usefully defensively you do receive high base saves across fort/reflex/will and you also get access to Toughness class enhancements. Extra charisma is also available for further improved Social Skills.

There's some nice Cure spell availability, a couple of useful buffs perhaps. If you took 7 levels of FvS you could get both CSW and say Searing Light, for a useful Range damage spell and better self-spell-healing.

Core Build Layout

Race: Half-Elf

Attributes
Str: Base 16 +5 lvls +1 Fighter +1 Racial +3 Tome +6 Item +3 Exc +3 Profane +2 Rage +2 Guild = 42 Str
Dex: Base 8 = Pfftt to Dex
Con: Base 16 +1 Racial +3 Tome +7 Item +3 Exc +2 Rage +2 Guild = 34 Con
Int: Base 14 +2 Tome +6 Item +2 Guild = 24 Int
Wis: Base 8 +2 Tome +6 Item = 16 Wis
Cha: Base 14 +2 FvS +3 Tome +6 Item +1 Exc +2 Guild = 28 Cha

Feats
Dilletante: Fighter
1: Power Attack
2: Cleave
3: Great Cleave
4: Insightful Reflexes
5: Improved Sunder
6: Improved Critical: Slash
7: Maximise (AoV1 Pre-Req)
Bonus: Toughness
1: Opportunist
2: Improved Evasion or Skill Mastery

Key / Possible Enhancements
Human Adaptability 2
Fighter Strength 1
FvS Charimsa 2
Rogue Assasin 2
Rogue Subtle Backstabbing 4 (Maxed for Build)
Rogue Damage Boost 2
Sneak Attack Accuracy 3
Sneak Attack Training 4 (Maxed for Build)
Improved Hide 2
Improved Move Silently 2
Favoured Soul AoV1
FvS Smiting 2
FvS Energy of the Scion 2
= 63 AP Spent
Rogue Haste Boost 2
Human Versatility 2
Racial Toughness 3
FvS Toughness 2
= 78 AP Spent

So over to you guys to discuss insane possibilities further...

[karl_k0ch]

Interesting build. It's a bit crazy but it might even be workable. Putting the "Shadow" back in SoS.

What are the class splits you are thinking of?
13 Rogue/7 FVS offers two level 3 spells. DW and FoM are level 4.
13/6/1 Fighter offers an additional feat, Quickdraw for example, and a different Dilly, Paladin, for Example.
Other splashes might be beneficial as well, but I think that a Fighter level offers the greatest versatility.

Re: Threat Reducement and sneak attacks. It's worth noting that the post-U12 ring of Lies has the Deception property, and the the upgraded one even improved deception.

For the Sword by itself, I think that even a Pure THF Paladin, and a Pure Warforged FVS will be happy with that thing.

[Arlathen]

Interesting build. It's a bit crazy but it might even be workable. Putting the "Shadow" back in SoS.

Yeah, its so crazy *it might* just work

What are the class splits you are thinking of?
13 Rogue/7 FVS offers two level 3 spells. DW and FoM are level 4.
13/6/1 Fighter offers an additional feat, Quickdraw for example, and a different Dilly, Paladin, for Example.
Other splashes might be beneficial as well, but I think that a Fighter level offers the greatest versatility.

Ahh, I'm working on another insane build atm, a Monk12/Cleric7/Fighter1 that does get those two very useful DW & FoM Spells. Apologies for the slip.

As for Class splits, that last level real is a 'take what ya want'...
1 Fighter - As stated, Bonus Feat, Martial Proficiency
1 Barbarian - Sprint Boost, Fast Movemement, Martial Proficiency, and a Mini Rage
1 Monk - Bonus feat, +2 to all saves, Wis to AC (Mostly useless)
1 Ranger - Sprint boost, FE Damage, Martial Proficiency, Bow Strength

Edit: I thought it important to take the Fighter Dilly not just for the Martial Weaponry proficiency but also for the extra Strength and the additional Combat Tactics DC. Its possible you may want to fit Stunning Blow into the Build somehow, as its a good accompaniment to the Improved Sunder feat the build is already taking and gives a real nice edge in Epics. Stunning Blow also offers auto Sneak Attacks, remember.

Re: Threat Reducement and sneak attacks. It's worth noting that the post-U12 ring of Lies has the Deception property, and the the upgraded one even improved deception.

Deception! Ring of Lies! Good catches Will edit these into my original post. Improved Deception would also be incredibly valuable for enabling sneak attacks.

For the Sword by itself, I think that even a Pure THF Paladin, and a Pure Warforged FVS will be happy with that thing.

Very true. The pure Paladin adding Good DR through Weapons of Good is very classic, and ofc the sword is very suitable for a pure WF FvS.

I was just thinking 'outside the box' a little

[Rydin_Dirtay]

On a ROGUE mind you, can you see this outdamaging a double Lit2-armed pure20 assassin?
I mean I'll grant you the eSOS has supreme damage, but as we all know, Rogue gets SA's from BOTH hands...and therein lies the issue. No pun intended.

pure20, all that untyped on TWO lit2's? The eSOS would only get it on a single weapon. That's untyped damage cut in half. Ouch.

[SableShadow]

Untyped? Combat log says typed, or did something else change while I was away last? :P

Granted, I don't know any DRs on SA-able mobs that would block a significant portion of it.

[Rydin_Dirtay]

Untyped? Combat log says typed, or did something else change while I was away last? :P

Granted, I don't know any DRs on SA-able mobs that would block a significant portion of it.

!@## it that is what I meant

I said untyped the last time, and you corrected me that time too.

You know what I mean. all those d6's times TWO on TWF Lit2's or other comparable TWF weapon, vs. all those D6's times ONE, on an eSOS.

[SableShadow]

You know what I mean. all those d6's times TWO on TWF Lit2's or other comparable TWF weapon, vs. all those D6's times ONE, on an eSOS.

No worries; I was responding to the OP ... figured I missed something again.

Deception! Ring of Lies! Good catches Will edit these into my original post. Improved Deception would also be incredibly valuable for enabling sneak attacks.

And the ring actually works. Pulled a new one right after the mod dropped, tested it out with min IIs.

Hopefully the upgraded one will work also.

[DragonTroy]

!@## it that is what I meant

I said untyped the last time, and you corrected me that time too.

You know what I mean. all those d6's times TWO on TWF Lit2's or other comparable TWF weapon, vs. all those D6's times ONE, on an eSOS.

this is a "theorybuild" so it isn't really supposed to be the most optimal. but, it looks(emphasis) like it would still do well in terms of damage. i would be interested to see how the dps would stack up, i think it would be in the general ball park. but that's one crazy person's opinion

on to my thought about the build: rediculous. utter stupid, one of the most wacky things I've ever come to see.



and i love it. it has a specific playstyle all it's own, and is probably the best use of the half elf race i have ever seen. probably the only use of the ring of lies i have ever seen, and quite well at that. great use of insightful reflexes as well. all around a very neat idea that, as you put perfectly, "is so crazy, it just might work"


but, call me a bore, i would just see this better done just going pure rogue.
why?

1) more sneak attack dice to add onto the eSoS. with the full 20 rogue dice+capstone, i wouldnt be surprised if this was close to, or even surpassed, the damage per swing a paladin,kensai, or maybe frenzied berserker would get, which is simply incredible.

2) this is a very deceptive, devious, tricky playstyle you have going here, and there is no class as manipulative, calculating, and ingenious as the Rogue. it fits perfectly.

3) the debuff that you are making the split for is generally going to be present from what i have seen in my time running. favored souls are all over, at every level, and all of them have AoV. 9 times out of 10, that raid tank is already going to have a crown shining above his head, and you trying to give him another wont do a thing.

4) dropping the fvs levels would free up a feat for stunning blow, which would work nicely here. stun=sneak attacks. also gives you more rogue feats, which are always fun

5) can you imagine how funny it would be to walk up to your raid group, eSoS in hand, and just see the barb/ftr/pally/WF fvs/xyz freak out about how the rogue has an Epic Sword of Shadows and they don't? absolute hilarity!


well, that's my opinion, but no matter what, it is still a great build

EDIT: forgot something awesome you could gain by going pure rogue: a decent assassinate score. maybe not quite with the build idea, but still a very neat ability to have

[SableShadow]

call me a bore, i would just see this better done just going pure rogue.

I would not, actually.

1) more sneak attack dice to add onto the eSoS. with the full 20 rogue dice+capstone,

eSoS n' company are about the crit. SA doesn't add to the crit.

SA is about the number of hits, not crits. Two different animals.

i wouldnt be surprised if this was close to, or even surpassed, the damage per swing a paladin,kensai, or maybe frenzied berserker would get, which is simply incredible.

I would be, tbh.

The new cleave apparently rocks for single target, coupled with damage boost and whatnot, but without running the numbers ... I would be very surprised if it wasn't a drop in dps from twf on a pure rogue.

/shrug

[DragonTroy]

eSoS n' company are about the crit. SA doesn't add to the crit.

SA is about the number of hits, not crits. Two different animals.

I'm aware the attraction of the eSoS, SA's, and the differences between the two.

but, if you look in the 1st post, he talks about augmenting the already destructive power of the eSoS with "a truckload of sneak damage" behind it. And since, that is the jumping off point of the entire build. wouldn't it be feasible to do it as best it can be?

I would be, tbh.

The new cleave apparently rocks for single target, coupled with damage boost and whatnot, but without running the numbers ... I would be very surprised if it wasn't a drop in dps from twf on a pure rogue.

/shrug

you're combining two very powerful damage sources, and using your gear, skills and feats, to make it happen nigh continuously.

i see this build as a tornado of undetected destruction, spiraling around, striking multiple enemies with the physical prowess of the eSoS and the situationally devestating power of the sneak attack. if played well, this build could be the bane of any enemy, without them ever noticing they were being hurt by the attacker.

[destiny4405]

5) can you imagine how funny it would be to walk up to your raid group, eSoS in hand, and just see the barb/ftr/pally/WF fvs/xyz freak out about how the rogue has an Epic Sword of Shadows and they don't? absolute hilarity!

this actually happened, when a WF 13rog/6pally/1mnk(i think) came in evon with ESoS. two barbs and one kensai almost jumped of the cliff

to OP: if i ever get an ESoS, im gonna try this. nuf said

[Arlathen]

Thanks for the feedback everyone

As has been hashed over several times already, this 'Theorybuild' isn't meant to build a ultimate DPS Rogue - far from it.

It's a build designed to take one of the ultimate weapons in the game, add additional damage to it (Sneak Attack 9D6+12) and enhance its natural abilities (Fort Reduction for more Crits) and thus even find ways of dealing with Sneak/Crit Immune mobs (Opportunist/Improved Sunder).

The main damage comes of course from High Strength and the Weapon itself - this is no different to a Barb/Fighter/Pally running around with the weapon. As the additional damage is reliant on Sneak Attacks, additional avenues of enabling those Sneak attacks are needed so that the damage becomes consistent - hence the three social skills.

I also accept that actually , FvS is a weak choice here - but its also something I'm working on. I *love* the Aura - essentialy providing +2 to hit and +2 Combat DCs ontop of the Fort Debuff. One of the key reasons that I wanted it on this build though was so that I could 'Name Champion' and stay in range of the Tank while the FvS are a good safe distance from the actual melee brawl going off around the Epic/Raid boss. Its just unfortunate that in all other respects 6 levels of FvS is weak in comparison to other chocies, really :/

Now to respond to a few quotes:

Untyped? Combat log says typed, or did something else change while I was away last? :P

Merely thought it was untyped as I've never seen my Sneak Damage suffer DR from any mob in game. Sneak Damage blocked through Immunity/Fortification Yes - but not mitigated through DR.

On to my thought about the build: Ridiculous. Utterly stupid, one of the most wacky things I've ever come to see - And I love it!

Yeah, it does have a certain charm, doesn't it?

EDIT: forgot something awesome you could gain by going pure rogue: a decent assassinate score. maybe not quite with the build idea, but still a very neat ability to have

Its a bridge too far, at this kind of level split. If the Theorybuild was near-pure or pure then absolutely, assassinate would be a very useful extra ability. *I would Imagine ramming an ESOS through an enemies neck would generally result in instant death*

I see this build as a tornado of undetected destruction, spiraling around, striking multiple enemies with the physical prowess of the eSoS and the situationally devestating power of the sneak attack. if played well, this build could be the bane of any enemy, without them ever noticing they were being hurt by the attacker.

I think you've got the build in a nutshell right there...

.... when a WF 13rog/6pally/1mnk.....

Hmm, creativity bells are ringing....

to OP: if i ever get an ESoS, im gonna try this. nuf said

Yeah, the expression over Mic's would be awesome to hear when you turn up to the Party as an ESOS equipped Rogue. Its one of the main draws of the Theorybuild

[danielhrobbins]

Just so you know, threat reduction doesn't stack the way you suggest. It's accumulative, meaning: 100 (base threat) - 20% from, say , subtle backstabbing II = 80, so 20% reduction; and if you have treason also, it is 80 - 20% = 64 (80-16). Then if you've got another 20%, its 64 - 20% = (64 - 12.8) = 51.2. So, it's 48.8% reduction, if I'm not mistaken.

[Valindria]

The new cleave apparently rocks for single target, coupled with damage boost and whatnot, but without running the numbers ... I would be very surprised if it wasn't a drop in dps from twf on a pure rogue.

Please explain why cleave rocks vs single target. Vs multiple it seems obvious, but I missed why it's better for single targets.

[Arlathen]

Just so you know, threat reduction doesn't stack the way you suggest. It's accumulative, meaning: 100 (base threat) - 20% from, say , subtle backstabbing II = 80, so 20% reduction; and if you have treason also, it is 80 - 20% = 64 (80-16). Then if you've got another 20%, its 64 - 20% = (64 - 12.8) = 51.2. So, it's 48.8% reduction, if I'm not mistaken.

Yes, I double checked my numbers and also found a reference to a DDOCast 'Ask the Devs' where it was confirmed by MadFloyd how Threat Reduction stacks.

Essentially, its a decimal multiplication, i.e:

Treason = 20% or 0.8 from Base
SB4 = 40% or 0.6 from Base

Then, 1.0 * 0.8 * 0.6 = 0.48, or Threat is reduced to 48% of its original amount. This is similar to how Healing Amplification works, only with decreasing amounts instead of increasing amounts.

OP updated.

[Arlathen]

Please explain why cleave rocks vs single target. Vs multiple it seems obvious, but I missed why it's better for single targets.

For me, its because it interrupts Social Skill animations with an immediate attack.

You can hit Bluff, Diplomacy or Intimidate then immediately execute an attack through Cleave or Great Cleave, instead of waiting for the Skill animation to complete.

Therefore, there's no need for Quickdraw to shorten these 'cooldown' times and you can keep up DPS vs. your single targets. As Bluff lasts just 6 seconds, you want to maximise your time hitting the target and not waiting for the animation to finish.

[SableShadow]

Please explain why cleave rocks vs single target. Vs multiple it seems obvious, but I missed why it's better for single targets.

Another flavor of THF twitch. I don't have a cleave-r, I just notice that people doing it seem to be throwing a heck of a lot more dps than they used to.

[Darkrok]

Feats
Dilletante: Fighter
1: Power Attack
2: Cleave
3: Great Cleave
4: Insightful Reflexes
5: Improved Sunder
6: Toughness
7: Maximise (AoV1 Pre-Req)
1: Opportunist
2: Improved Evasion or Skill Mastery

No improved crit:slashing?

[Arlathen]

No improved crit:slashing?

Absolutely. Goes without saying. I was just accounting for it via a Fighter 1 splash onto the 13/6 initial split, when I checked over my notes. I've updated OP but again, this is just Theorybuilding, so its upto the person who wants to build this concept how to implement the requirements.

[nibel]

Merely thought it was untyped as I've never seen my Sneak Damage suffer DR from any mob in game. Sneak Damage blocked through Immunity/Fortification Yes - but not mitigated through DR.

It is mitigated by DR. What happens is: On the numbers raising from the mob, they are separeted (base + sneak), but they are, in fact, added together to check DR.

So, if the mob have DR 30, your base is 25, and you deal 80 sneak, your total is shown on top as 0 + 75, and on combat log is "you sneak attacked mob for 75 damage after 30 was reduced by DR".

It's easier to check on a finesse build (who has low base damage). Your sneaks lose a lot of punch on elite vale mobs without a DR breaker.