2 Monkcher builds

[Thrudh]

3. I've heard that someone of you do not use touch of death...well I think it is simply too good addition to dps. Yes is ap intensive(I had to renunce at some healing amplification for it) but it's 250-1500 damage every 15 sec...nothing more to be said.

4. Sequence for me is 10kstars then manyshot then melee till ms cooldown is 1/4 to go then 10k again and so on.

In that case, you're not getting 250-1500 damage every 15 seconds from ToD.

ToD costs a lot of APs, costs a lot of Ki, and you can only use it when meleeing which is about 30%-50% of the time for most monk archer builds...

I'm not saying it's not worth taking, but it's not essential for sure. It can easily be dropped.

[karl_k0ch]

The key feature of these monkcher builds is manyshot and 10k stars, so it seems to me that most people would want to have these asap. That is one factor. Another is that you probably want artificer up front, if not first, for access to DD and repeating x-bows.

I think, for leveling purposes, GTWF and IPS are much more valuable than getting access to 10k stars.
Also, I am completely uninterested in crossbows, as you're going to have a bad to-hit, and all your ki will be drained from you.

[savingsoul]

I think, for leveling purposes, GTWF and IPS are much more valuable than getting access to 10k stars.
Also, I am completely uninterested in crossbows, as you're going to have a bad to-hit, and all your ki will be drained from you.

Are you sure you understand what you're getting into with these monkcher builds?

It just seems to me that prefering IPS to 10k stars is kind of comical, like putting the cart before the horse. *giggles*

Also, iirc wax_on, for one, has even considered dropping GTWF on one or another of his monkchers because he knows that on these builds melee is usually secondary to ranged.

Lastly, if you take zen archery early enough in your progression, your wisdom mod will apply to attack on x-bows as well.

It appears, according to your comment, that you already have some motivation to take zen archery fairly early as otherwise you will be losing ki anyway every time you pull out a *longbow*. In my experience, losing ki from pulling out an xbow or longbow isn't a big deal; I didn't take zen archery until level 13, when I reached 6 levels of monk. In any case, why would you be worried about losing ki from pulling out a xbow if you're planning on postponing the monk levels till the end? That is, even if you do take a lot of ranger levels early on, it would probably be a good idea to take one level of arty before them so you have access to repeating xbows. Naturally, you will eventually want to drop x-bows completely at least when you get 10k stars if not sooner.

[karl_k0ch]

Are you sure you understand what you're getting into with these monkcher builds?

It just seems to me that prefering IPS to 10k stars is kind of comical, like putting the cart before the horse. *giggles*

As 10k scales with your Wis mod, and you don't start with a very high wis, I', leaning towards thinking that the 'static' damage amplification of IPS is more valuable than a 10k stars which only fires one to two arrows, because you only have 20ish wis.

Lastly, if you take zen archery early enough in your progression, your wisdom mod will apply to attack on x-bows as well.

According to the wiki, XBows might get Wis as the to-hit stat, but still don't count as Ki weapons and consequently uncenter you. It's still a neat trick, and I will keep it in mind.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Crossbows in the early levels will be much better than anything else on offer. You could easily defer all monk levels until after 1 artificer / 6 ranger and just level on the strength of a heavy repeating crossbow and a carnifex.

Being centered with a bow really doesn't seem important until after you have 10k stars. Ki doesn't seem important until after you have 10k stars. IPS is definitely not needed until cap, imo and GTWF is, as savingsoul says, not needed at all on a 10k stars build (though it's a nice perk to get it on this one).

Sorry that the skill point math was off, I was posting from my iPhone so it was a bit difficult to maintain perspective on it. 34 point is much more flexible for skill points which is good.

For leveling progression I'd look at:
1 artificer
2-7 ranger
8 artificer
9-14 monk
15 artificer
16-20 ranger

I don't agree that rogue is a stronger choice. It costs you a feat and considerable points of UMD. The rogue splash for me is best suited to a tempest II exploiter build with fighter dilettante (this build doesn't spend enough time in melee to justify fighter dilettante, imo). Cleric dilettante is an option for either build until UMD kicks off at level 12ish.

I'll update the post to fix the feat conflict.

Edit: stupid misclicks.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Another point to add is that with the above progression by the time you get 10k stars at level 14 you can have up to 34 wisdom (16 base +3 levels +2 tome +2 monk +6 item +1 adaptability +2 ship +2 water stance) making it well worthwhile.

[savingsoul]

Crossbows in the early levels will be much better than anything else on offer. You could easily defer all monk levels until after 1 artificer / 6 ranger and just level on the strength of a heavy repeating crossbow and a carnifex.

Being centered with a bow really doesn't seem important until after you have 10k stars. Ki doesn't seem important until after you have 10k stars. IPS is definitely not needed until cap, imo and GTWF is, as savingsoul says, not needed at all on a 10k stars build (though it's a nice perk to get it on this one).

Sorry that the skill point math was off, I was posting from my iPhone so it was a bit difficult to maintain perspective on it. 34 point is much more flexible for skill points which is good.

For leveling progression I'd look at:
1 artificer
2-7 ranger
8 artificer
9-14 monk
15 artificer
16-20 ranger

I don't agree that rogue is a stronger choice. It costs you a feat and considerable points of UMD. The rogue splash for me is best suited to a tempest II exploiter build with fighter dilettante (this build doesn't spend enough time in melee to justify fighter dilettante, imo). Cleric dilettante is an option for either build until UMD kicks off at level 12ish.

I'll update the post to fix the feat conflict.

Edit: stupid misclicks.

I guess you are serious when you say you can get by with carnifex and a heavy repeater during the first 7-8 levels, as TWF with a base str of 14 wouldn't be very viable with anything other than handwraps. I've used THF on a nearly pure ranger in the past until I got ITWF; that's probably pretty common. Also, about two weeks ago I came across someone on their 2nd or 3rd life doing a pure ranger and even taking the heavy repeater proficiency feat because the damage with them is so good; he said that he would simply swap out the feat later when the longbow was stronger.

That all makes sense when you are locked into a nearly pure ranger without any other option than the auto feat progression your are given; however, it makes a little less sense when you are not. Why are you taking 6 levels of ranger up front when you aren't really using any of the feats? To be sure, you will be using rapid shot for the xbow, but that's about it. Also, you do get diehard, but who loses sleep over that? You might as well go 1 artificer, 2-7 monk, to get evasion (though it will be weak), still mind, disease immunity, and at least 2 bonus feats that you will probably use (maybe toughness and dodge, for example; I assume the third will likely be zen archery) up front. I'm not really serious when I suggest this; I can see that the main reason for taking 6 levels of ranger early on is to get manyshot, which is awesome. It just seems like it would make even more sense if you simply took one level of monk after the first level of artificer, and then took 6 levels of ranger, so that you could use handwraps to take advantage of twf and itwf immediately when you get them as well as the monk stances. Nothing would hold you back from using carnifex for slash damage either. Also, assuming you will be using the elven arcane archer enhancements, you will not be able to conjure arrows until level 8 anyway; it's much nicer to get manyshot and conjured arrows at the same time, as it's much easier to manage ammo that way; you could use the ranger AA enhancement at level 7 and then respec to elven AA at level 8 or later; that could be a little tedious, but i think you can get acid arrows two levels earlier that way. Whatever, no need to sweat the small stuff. Otherwise, the level progression listed above is quite similar to what I had in mind. I can definitely live with it.

[savingsoul]

Another point to add is that with the above progression by the time you get 10k stars at level 14 you can have up to 34 wisdom (16 base +3 levels +2 tome +2 monk +6 item +1 adaptability +2 ship +2 water stance) making it well worthwhile.

I know from the Uzy build that yet another nice thing about getting 10k stars around level 13-14 is that, if you've been putting adequate skill points into concentration, you should reach 20+ reserve ki at that time, so it will be just enough to fire a first round of 10k stars. To be sure, per the earlier discussion, on this build you will want to take zen archery much earlier than 10k stars, as your initial dex is pretty low and you will want to capitalize on your higher wisdom for attack on xbows as well as MS on longbows.

[Ebforest60]

I'm about to pull the trigger on my AA/Monkster (Arti splash likely) but since I'll be TR'ing from an Arty I have a question about Longbow rate of fire...

If I fire a Heavy Repeater and all three hit that is 3d10 damage.
If I fire a Use a Bow and MS/10k assuming three arrows and they all hit, that is 3d8 damage.

Reapeater adds INT dmg (Arty infusion.) Bow adds STR (bow strength.) Elemental effects are a wash.

What am I missing here that makes Bow better? Does it scale better with BAB than Crossbow?

I really liked the ranged aspect of my Artificer and I don't mind builds that aren't MaxLeetUber but I do want to be viable. So I'm sure there is something I'm not getting or missed in the discussion.

[kaobang]

Hello,

MS with BAB of 15 and higher is 4 arrows.
Longbow allows the use of AA slayer arrows ~25 avg dmg (Actually I hate using this avg for proc because except vs bosses you lose a lot of dmg).

From what I read about arti (I have an AA), arti do more DPS due to faster rate of fire + rune arm (from a range point of view).
However well built AA have enough str to have a decent melee.

Re IPS vs 10ks ...
o me it is more a question of how you like to play.
From the 10ks thread (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...ight=10k+stars), I saw that most likely you will fire an average of ~2 arrows.
If I well understood, you can do the same damage aligning 2 mobs with IPS.

[karl_k0ch]

MS with BAB of 15 and higher is 4 arrows.

It's actually 16 and up for 4 hits per arrow.

Otherwise: Agreed, it's probably a play style thing.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Re IPS vs 10ks ...
o me it is more a question of how you like to play.
From the 10ks thread (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...ight=10k+stars), I saw that most likely you will fire an average of ~2 arrows.
If I well understood, you can do the same damage aligning 2 mobs with IPS.

This is true. Put that way, I think I'd go for 10k stars on a character before going for IPS if a choice has to be made. Single target DPS is the priority while leveling I've tended to find.

[savingsoul]

This is true. Put that way, I think I'd go for 10k stars on a character before going for IPS if a choice has to be made. Single target DPS is the priority while leveling I've tended to find.

If I understand correctly, is seems that the option of lining up baddies for IPS is only likely to happen if you are soloing and are lucky enough to have an appropriate space or corridor, and this dramatically limits their possible equivalence; to be sure, i'm not an expert on exploiting IPS, i tend to neglect it, have it on like a passive feat, and just focus on other means. If I manage to hit two or more things with a shot, great, but I don't lose hair over it. Sure, it's possible you may have some good buddies to play with that will coordinate with you, but not very likely; even then, they will only be able to do so in said corridor or space. Also, it's not just IPS vs 10k stars, by taking 10k stars first, or at least at the same time, it's also IPS *and* 10k stars; that is, having baddies lined up is a momentary thing that you can capitalize on using a temporary boost like 10k stars. At the end of the day, especially while leveling as wax_on has said, having a single target during most of the game seems far more likely than managing to line up two or more baddies.

[wax_on_wax_off]

If I understand correctly, is seems that the option of lining up baddies for IPS is only likely to happen if you are soloing and are lucky enough to have an appropriate space or corridor, and this dramatically limits their possible equivalence; to be sure, i'm not an expert on exploiting IPS, i tend to neglect it, have it on like a passive feat, and just focus on other means. If I manage to hit two or more things with a shot, great, but I don't lose hair over it. Sure, it's possible you may have some good buddies to play with that will coordinate with you, but not very likely; even then, they will only be able to do so in said corridor or space. Also, it's not just IPS vs 10k stars, by taking 10k stars first, or at least at the same time, it's also IPS *and* 10k stars; that is, having baddies lined up is a momentary thing that you can capitalize on using a temporary boost like 10k stars. At the end of the day, especially while leveling as wax_on has said, having a single target during most of the game seems far more likely than managing to line up two or more baddies.

Did you just manage to spend an entire large paragraph saying what I said in just over 1 line?

The only time that I've missed IPS is in epics on a character that couldn't fit it in, then it was just painful seeing the many missed opportunities for CC or AoE damage on large trash mobs.

[savingsoul]

Did you just manage to spend an entire large paragraph saying what I said in just over 1 line?

The only time that I've missed IPS is in epics on a character that couldn't fit it in, then it was just painful seeing the many missed opportunities for CC or AoE damage on large trash mobs.

Um . . . maybe i did. Don't be too harsh on me, it's not like overall I post that often on the forums. I think I added a little detail; or at least I prompted you to Anyway, I think that the previous question regarding xbows vs. longbows is more interesting, do you have any comments on that?

[wax_on_wax_off]

Um . . . maybe i did. Don't be too harsh on me, it's not like overall I post that often on the forums. I think I added a little detail; or at least I prompted you to Anyway, I think that the previous question regarding xbows vs. longbows is more interesting, do you have any comments on that?

Which question was that? I may have missed it and too tipsy to find it now.

Crossbows are great at low levels but they don't scale well so after level 10 you've got to expect to be supplementing your DPS with other sources (mainly rune arm for an Artificer).

Rune Arms are great but to get DPS out of them you have to stay reasonably stationary.

In contrast to Rune Arm/Crossbow combo bows are weak starting out but once you havethe full suite of abilities (manyshot, 10k stars, IPS, slayer arrows) it really is a force to be reckoned with and, IMO, will out DPS artificers at higher levels of gear (exceptional stats, tier 3 GS etc - there's no rof figures for bows/crossbows though so impossible to know). Another impact on DPS is that wisdom is both the attacking stat and DPS stat (in form of additional procs for 10k stars) while in contrast annArtificer has to make often painful choices between dex and int unless a +3 dex tome is available (similar issue for a 12 monk 10k stars build though).

Finally, there's massive differences in other character attributes. 10k star archers have high saves, bonus movement speed, potentially raid tank worthy AC, epic level CC in the form of stunning fist and more HP and DR. Artificers on the other hand have bad saves, low HP and generally struggle with survivability (which is why most people go with WF despite the significant cost to DPS).

[wax_on_wax_off]

After some discourse in over threads I'm updating my divine AA builds to something closer to what I'll eventually use when I do them (more polish is possibly needed).

Concept/Goals: 10,000 Stars Radiant Servant Archer
Class: 13 Cleric / 6 Monk / 1 Wizard
Alignment: Lawful Neutral
Multiclass progression: 1: Monk, 2-7 cleric, 8 wizard, 9-13 cleric, 14-18 monk, 19-20 cleric

Stats and Race (36pt build): Half-Elf
Str: 27 (12 base +3 tome +7 item +2 rage -2 water stance +2 ship +3 Abishai)
Dex: 26 (16 base +3 tome +6 item +1 profane)
Con: 28 (14 base +3 tome +6 item +2 rage +2 insightful +1 profane)
Int: 12 (9 base +3 tome)
Wis: 50 (16 base +6 levels +3 tome +4 enhancements +2 water stance +7 item +2 insightful +1 exceptional +1 profane +2 ship +2 yugo +2 Shiradi +2 alchemical)
Cha: 24 (13 base +3 tome +7 item +1 profane)
32/34 point build/less tomes: Options: drop wisdom, drop charisma, drop strength, drop constitution, drop intelligence, change to elf, change to rogue dilettante (no good options).
Ability increase every 4 levels: Enough in dexterity to qualify for Combat Archery, rest in wisdom.

Skills: Concentration, UMD, Tumble (1), left overs in Move Silently, Balance (5-10)

Feats (by level): Dilettante: Ranger (1), Point Blank Shot (1), Rapid Shot (3), Empower Healing (6), Weapon Focus: Ranged (9), Manyshot (12), Precise Shot (15), Improved Precise Shot (18), Improved Critical: Ranged (21), ? (24)
Feats (monk): Toughness (1), Zen Archery (14), Precision (18)
Feats (Wizard): Maximise (8)

Enhancements (Cleric): Radiant Servant II (+prereqs), max life enhancements, wisdom III, Wand and Scroll Mastery IV, DMII, 4/2/2 in smiting for DP
Enhancements (Monk): Way of the Patient Tortoise II (3), Adept of Sea (2), Adept of Wind (2), Adept of Stone (2), 10,000 Stars (1), Improved Recovery I (2)
Enhancements (Wizard): Energy of the Scholar I, Force Manipulation I
Enhancements (Half-Elf): Arcane Archer I (4), Conjure +5 Arrows (4), Slayer Arrows (5), Racial Toughness II (3), Improved Ranger Dilettante III (6), Versatility III (6), Adaptability: Wisdom, Improved Recovery I (2), Adaptability: Wisdom

Possible ideal equipment:
Head: Epic Mask of Comedy
Gloves: Purple Dragonknight Gloves
Cloak: Epic Envenomed Cloak (green)
Boots: Epic Boots of Corrosion (green, clear)
Trinket: Holy Symbol of Lolth
Bracers: Epic Scorched Bracers (green)
Belt: GS MinII +45 HP Belt
Necklace: Noxious Embers
Goggles: Epic Time-sensing Goggles (clear, yellow)
Body: Blue Dragonscale
Ring1: Seal of House Avithoul (+7 wisdom)
Ring2: Gilvaenor's Ring (20% healing amp)
Weapons: Epic Bow of Earth, Pinion, Cold Iron/Earth/Water/Earth/+7 Alchemic Bow, LitII GS Bow

Slots: +6 con, toughness, GFL, +4 resist, +2 GL <--- expensive

Details:
Blade Barrier DC: 37 (10 base +6 spell level +19 wisdom +2 cloak)
Spell Points: ?
HP: ?

Summary:
Always difficult to make divine AAs work but they are super fun to play and level at least. Updated gearset at least, so many priorities makes it difficult, possibly another layout with holy symbol of lolth would be good.

[deahamlet]

WoWo:

About the AA divine build (cleric)... A couple of things.

You have CHA 16 tho base 12 + 2 tome + 6 item = 20.
You have DMII which I gather is Divine Might II? That requires CHA 16 before any enhancements or items, no? That means either start 14 base, use +3 tome and a level up or give up Divine Might II (Divine Might I is still possible after level 7).
You also have Human Adaptability: Wisdom twice. And the math for Wisdom is incorrect... Wisdom III from cleric, Human Adaptability: Wisdom and Wisdom II from monk = +6 enhancements not +4.

Can you take Wisdom III from cleric and Wisdom II from monk at the same time?

Thank you.

[wax_on_wax_off]

WoWo:

About the AA divine build (cleric)... A couple of things.

You have CHA 16 tho base 12 + 2 tome + 6 item = 20.
You have DMII which I gather is Divine Might II? That requires CHA 16 before any enhancements or items, no? That means either start 14 base, use +3 tome and a level up or give up Divine Might II (Divine Might I is still possible after level 7).
You also have Human Adaptability: Wisdom twice. And the math for Wisdom is incorrect... Wisdom III from cleric, Human Adaptability: Wisdom and Wisdom II from monk = +6 enhancements not +4.

Can you take Wisdom III from cleric and Wisdom II from monk at the same time?

Thank you.

Thanks for picking up the errors; good portions of the build were copy pasted, I'll adjust just by adding a +3 supreme tome (though that is a bit lazy I admit). Monk Wisdom II/Cleric Wisdom III are exclusive - only 1 class enhancement line at a time - just a copy paste error.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Concept/Goals: 10,000 Stars Radiant Servant Archer

Shuffled feats, level progression and tried to add some polish with the implication that someone was perusing the build.