2 Monkcher builds

[ShadowFlash]

All good points...especially on the additional CC procs...

her current wierd build is starting to rely heavily on fascinate, and we will probablly go back to it for her 3rd life with virtuoso instead of warchanter for enthralling goodness. The link I mentioned that I'm considering for my build is a 12 Kensai/8 Virtuoso with stunning blow. Two of us stunning would be better than 1 for sure (yes, stunning fist is vastly superior) if I use that one, but crowd control (and the DPS increase from stunned mobs) would be covered none-the-less. Conversely, If I roll-what-I-know...a melee-divine, heals would be covered in spades, but CC would be non-existent, making 10K more attractive.

The whole healing-while-raged issue, I've always raised an eyebrow too, as we've yet to figure out an effective way to do it mid-fight. No-fail heal scrolls require quite a bit of gear (read:swapping) on a low CHA toon, and mostly, it just doesn't work in the hectic scenarios you need it most...for us, anyway.

I think you're under-estimating the to-hit problem greatly too. Speaking from a MAD battle-cleric perspective, I'm well aware of just how hard it is to maintain while leveling. And that's with DP/DF running to boot!

I didn't see in the 10K math thread you linked(maybe I missed it...tough read) the variable of crit damage worked into the STR vs WIS comparison....
Power Attack (with the to-hit to back it up) Imp.Crit high proccing rapiers w/ elven lines & rage vs X2 STR lower-proc handwraps with ToD rings, a much lower to-hit, and no power attack all together may offset the increased damage from stunned...and like it or not, you won't always have everyone you're hitting stunned, so those procs matter. Bows are also affected by this, but not to as great an extent due to identical proc rates and multpliers. Of course, this also opens up the fortification can-o-worms...
Number of crits from 10K may very well exceed the addition crit damage from STR based, but without seeing the math yet, I'm not sure. I know it's very ranged focused, but you'll of course where ToD rings right? so it's a valid comparrison/question?

Raging isn't just about DPS, but, also about CON...while raging, I have a minimum 120ish HP higher than the 10K. I'm assuming you plan on covering the lowish HP with CC options, either bow procs or stuns similar to how her current build survives now via bow procs & fascinate. Definately a high-skill playstyle, and un-forgiving.

Having high expoiteresque AC is a very nice perk (my current clonk enjoyed it at lower levels), but I'm not sure it's that big of a deal. If you gear for it, maybe even end-game AC is possible. Considering running epics for our 1st time is the goal for us, I'm not too worried about it, as I've been told AC doesn't mean all that much there, even if you gear for it.

It is worthy of considering, and I do like it....still considering it.

ShadowFlash

[wax_on_wax_off]

All good points...especially on the additional CC procs...

her current wierd build is starting to rely heavily on fascinate, and we will probablly go back to it for her 3rd life with virtuoso instead of warchanter for enthralling goodness. The link I mentioned that I'm considering for my build is a 12 Kensai/8 Virtuoso with stunning blow. Two of us stunning would be better than 1 for sure (yes, stunning fist is vastly superior) if I use that one, but crowd control (and the DPS increase from stunned mobs) would be covered none-the-less. Conversely, If I roll-what-I-know...a melee-divine, heals would be covered in spades, but CC would be non-existent, making 10K more attractive.

The whole healing-while-raged issue, I've always raised an eyebrow too, as we've yet to figure out an effective way to do it mid-fight. No-fail heal scrolls require quite a bit of gear (read:swapping) on a low CHA toon, and mostly, it just doesn't work in the hectic scenarios you need it most...for us, anyway.

I think you're under-estimating the to-hit problem greatly too. Speaking from a MAD battle-cleric perspective, I'm well aware of just how hard it is to maintain while leveling. And that's with DP/DF running to boot!

I didn't see in the 10K math thread you linked(maybe I missed it...tough read) the variable of crit damage worked into the STR vs WIS comparison....
Power Attack (with the to-hit to back it up) Imp.Crit high proccing rapiers w/ elven lines & rage vs X2 STR lower-proc handwraps with ToD rings, a much lower to-hit, and no power attack all together may offset the increased damage from stunned...and like it or not, you won't always have everyone you're hitting stunned, so those procs matter. Bows are also affected by this, but not to as great an extent due to identical proc rates and multpliers. Of course, this also opens up the fortification can-o-worms...
Number of crits from 10K may very well exceed the addition crit damage from STR based, but without seeing the math yet, I'm not sure. I know it's very ranged focused, but you'll of course where ToD rings right? so it's a valid comparrison/question?

Raging isn't just about DPS, but, also about CON...while raging, I have a minimum 120ish HP higher than the 10K. I'm assuming you plan on covering the lowish HP with CC options, either bow procs or stuns similar to how her current build survives now via bow procs & fascinate. Definately a high-skill playstyle, and un-forgiving.

Having high expoiteresque AC is a very nice perk (my current clonk enjoyed it at lower levels), but I'm not sure it's that big of a deal. If you gear for it, maybe even end-game AC is possible. Considering running epics for our 1st time is the goal for us, I'm not too worried about it, as I've been told AC doesn't mean all that much there, even if you gear for it.

It is worthy of considering, and I do like it....still considering it.

ShadowFlash

Most recently I've leveled a strength based unarmed rogue on an elite streak until 20, hit almost 200 in the end before capping (second life character). Rogue's have low AB but with GH, ship buffs, spectral gloves I could main tank just about any red named (ie, no sneak attack AB bonus which most rogues rely on to some extent). I think the suggested build is definitely workable especially if you can include a +4 AB cannith crafted accessory (goggles/trinket iirc).

AC is definitely gear dependent but I've definitely learned of its value while leveling the above rogue. It was certainly not an ideal AC character being strength based with 18 levels of rogue but I was able to out AC content including elite amrath (grazing hits were a pain though). There's no need to go to such extremes but a wisdom based build with more monk and adding ranger levels is certainly a prime candidate for excessive AC which would be valuable while leveling and in non-epic content (swap gear out for epics).

Melee DPS wise I'd go with a Holy Bursted ToD Ring + Epic Ring of the Stalker. +2 exceptional strength can only be slotted on a ToD ring or the epic cape of the roc so it's a tough call depending on activities, probably something to test out and see.

I don't get into the math much unless it's on my mind. I can say definitively though that ~+100% attack speed, 50% of the time is more DPS than anything that barbarian brings to the table. Sure, barbarian will do more damage during Manyshot and will have higher melee DPS but I don't think it will keep up overall.

HP will be lower obviously, while leveling this is irrelevant though with the AC that is possible. On my rogue I consistently had the lowest HP in the party due to complete disregard for HP gear but was the one with all the aggro. The aggro didn't affect my DPS as I had a high stunning fist DC. Earth Stance II also gives +2 con and 10% damage reduction which is pretty huge defensively.

The suggested build should have a very high stunning fist DC due to being wisdom based. Over 50 is quite possible at level 20 which is enough to stun even bladesworn paladins with some consistency. However, the main purpose of stunning fist is to have something to do when you pull aggro, the mob approaches you and instead of kiting it like a tool you swap to your wraps and stun it, very cool, imo :P

[karl_k0ch]

Concept/Goals: A monkcher which sacrifices some possible DPS for better AB, versatility and utility.
Class: 11 ranger / 6 monk / 3 Artificer
Alignment: Lawful Neutral

A build which seems to be very similar to this, is 11 ranger/9 monk, which offers ToD, and improved evasion. I'd be very interested in the differences between these two build.

How often does this kind of build need to go into melee mode to regain Ki? Is the TWF line of any use at all?

What's the benefit of 3 Artificer, actually? If I understand it correctly, using a runearm will uncenter you, and it cannot be wielded with handwraps or a bow. I see that trap skills, umd and W&SM I are good reasons, but that's also offered by 2 rogue levels, which would also offer a Haste Boost, for example. (Ofc, the SA damage is negligible for a Helf with Rogue dilly.)

I don't see why it's necessary to take Mental Toughness, as Artificer Energy of Creation suffices as an AA prereq, essentially freeing a feat slot (now this is actually a reason to consider Arty :P).

[wax_on_wax_off]

A build which seems to be very similar to this, is 11 ranger/9 monk, which offers ToD, and improved evasion. I'd be very interested in the differences between these two build.

How often does this kind of build need to go into melee mode to regain Ki? Is the TWF line of any use at all?

What's the benefit of 3 Artificer, actually? If I understand it correctly, using a runearm will uncenter you, and it cannot be wielded with handwraps or a bow. I see that trap skills, umd and W&SM I are good reasons, but that's also offered by 2 rogue levels, which would also offer a Haste Boost, for example. (Ofc, the SA damage is negligible for a Helf with Rogue dilly.)

I don't see why it's necessary to take Mental Toughness, as Artificer Energy of Creation suffices as an AA prereq, essentially freeing a feat slot (now this is actually a reason to consider Arty :P).

If the build ATM has MT then it does need to be updated

And you've covered it pretty well. Artificer 3 offers:
- level 1 and 2 infusions (elemental weapons mainly)
- energy of creation (for AA)
- trap skills
- max UMD
- W&SMI
- +1 CL, +2 UMD on scrolls, potions and wands, +1 UMD
- breaker of boxes

Nothing huge here, but it's a lot of little things that add up to a nice package. 9 monk doesn't interest me too much as I don't see that there will be enough Ki even for keeping up shadow fade and 10k stars and Static Charge is an interesting enough alternative to go with a LitII GS Bow. Improved Evasion is great of course but I don't think that it is better than what Artificer offers.

[karl_k0ch]

breaker of boxes

And puller of levers. I see that this build offers a lot of versatility for soloing quests. I think I found the build for my ranger's second life.

Ok, more questions regarding the feat choices. I see that you swapped MT for IC: Blunt. Are there no other decent feats than that minor melee DPS increase?
If you take Stunning Blow already, wouldn't Stunning Fist be a more sensible feat?
What do you think about Sap and Hamstring? Will your melee to-hit be too low to consider PA?

What's your guesstimate for the ratio of melee fighting vs. ranged fighting? 1:1?

In your stat breakdown, you list water stance. Situationally, it might make sense to swap to fire stance, essentially trading +2 to hit for +2 damage. (-4 Wis, +4 Str). The tier2 air stance is only in the enhancement list to ensure 10k stars, correct? Is there any essential benefit in picking up any other Tier 2 Stance?

[korsat]

I'm currently testing the build and I can say:

1. the melee ability of this guy is too strong to give up, I want gtwf and ic:bludgeon on him. Power attack really depends on the to-hit(I think if you have 30+strenght and some good gear like eRaven it may worth it). I personally always use it in non-epic content, have to turn off for epics.

2. the best stance is the earth3, crit 19-20/x4 orx5 (sinew) with bow and 19-20/x3 with handwraps is really good, then we have better hp and 15% damage mitigation that I always want in epics. I can renunce at the +1 to hit in ocean3 and the chance for +1 or +2 arrows sometimes. The wind2 stance is good to have for solo and is a prerequisite for 10kstars. I don't have enough ap for other stances.

3. I've heard that someone of you do not use touch of death...well I think it is simply too good addition to dps. Yes is ap intensive(I had to renunce at some healing amplification for it) but it's 250-1500 damage every 15 sec...nothing more to be said.

4. Sequence for me is 10kstars then manyshot then melee till ms cooldown is 1/4 to go then 10k again and so on. Dps in this way are simply awesome. I've completed echrono the other day with 21 kills and only 1 esos barb with more kills than me(and I currently use a normal bow of sinew and +4 puregood acid wraps) I can kill an epic arcane in like 4-5sec with stun+tod, less if I have manyshot ready.

I think that the build works better if you switch melee/ranged 50% each, but this is just mine impression

[karl_k0ch]

I'm currently testing the build and I can say:

1. the melee ability of this guy is too strong to give up, I want gtwf and ic:bludgeon on him. Power attack really depends on the to-hit(I think if you have 30+strenght and some good gear like eRaven it may worth it). I personally always use it in non-epic content, have to turn off for epics.

2. the best stance is the earth3, crit 19-20/x4 orx5 (sinew) with bow and 19-20/x3 with handwraps is really good, then we have better hp and 15% damage mitigation that I always want in epics. I can renunce at the +1 to hit in ocean3 and the chance for +1 or +2 arrows sometimes. The wind2 stance is good to have for solo and is a prerequisite for 10kstars. I don't have enough ap for other stances.

3. I've heard that someone of you do not use touch of death...well I think it is simply too good addition to dps. Yes is ap intensive(I had to renunce at some healing amplification for it) but it's 250-1500 damage every 15 sec...nothing more to be said.

4. Sequence for me is 10kstars then manyshot then melee till ms cooldown is 1/4 to go then 10k again and so on. Dps in this way are simply awesome. I've completed echrono the other day with 21 kills and only 1 esos barb with more kills than me(and I currently use a normal bow of sinew and +4 puregood acid wraps) I can kill an epic arcane in like 4-5sec with stun+tod, less if I have manyshot ready.

I think that the build works better if you switch melee/ranged 50% each, but this is just mine impression

Which build are you actually referring to? Because I can't see how you can get Earth3 and ToD on the 11ranger/6monk/3arty from the third post.

[wax_on_wax_off]

And puller of levers. I see that this build offers a lot of versatility for soloing quests. I think I found the build for my ranger's second life.

Ok, more questions regarding the feat choices. I see that you swapped MT for IC: Blunt. Are there no other decent feats than that minor melee DPS increase?
If you take Stunning Blow already, wouldn't Stunning Fist be a more sensible feat?
What do you think about Sap and Hamstring? Will your melee to-hit be too low to consider PA?

What's your guesstimate for the ratio of melee fighting vs. ranged fighting? 1:1?

In your stat breakdown, you list water stance. Situationally, it might make sense to swap to fire stance, essentially trading +2 to hit for +2 damage. (-4 Wis, +4 Str). The tier2 air stance is only in the enhancement list to ensure 10k stars, correct? Is there any essential benefit in picking up any other Tier 2 Stance?

The build at current has stunning fist. Strength will be too low to bother with Blow. If you went strength based it is a fine option.

As mentioned in the comments, IC:B is mainly fOr tharaak wraps effectively doubling your chance for an insta kill on these currently OP wraps.

Sap is an interesting choice and would likely work very well in the context of this build. Hamstring is rogue only afaik.

Power Attack is a fine addition with a spare feat but I'd worry about the impact on Ki generation in the seconds that it takes to realise that you need to turn PA off in the current content. Also it just wouldn't seem to get much use in content that matters as you'll be mostly ranged.

I think it would shift between between full ranged (when Ki is stored up), 3/4 range (including 10 seconds of unboosted ranged), 2/3 ranged (keeping boosts on timer continuously). To be fair, this is only a plan for me, I have to get through my current artificer life before I finally roll my archer character up. I imagine swapping to wraps and hitting improved sunder/stunning fist rather than kiting will be a very nice strategy. Sometimes tharaak wraps might be better in general (depending on foe/mob saves).

I'd generally swap between earth and water stance. Water stance will be the highest ranged DPS stance due to the way it interacts with 10k stars and helps AB as well. Earth Stance is just incredibly powerful for defense and doesn't impact DPS like fire stance does. Air stance is fine for soloing if you dont want to chug haste pots. Fire stance might be useful to swap into for out of combat healing or if Melee AB with tharaak wraps/stunning fist is causing issues in epics.

I'm currently testing the build and I can say:

1. the melee ability of this guy is too strong to give up, I want gtwf and ic:bludgeon on him. Power attack really depends on the to-hit(I think if you have 30+strenght and some good gear like eRaven it may worth it). I personally always use it in non-epic content, have to turn off for epics.

2. the best stance is the earth3, crit 19-20/x4 orx5 (sinew) with bow and 19-20/x3 with handwraps is really good, then we have better hp and 15% damage mitigation that I always want in epics. I can renunce at the +1 to hit in ocean3 and the chance for +1 or +2 arrows sometimes. The wind2 stance is good to have for solo and is a prerequisite for 10kstars. I don't have enough ap for other stances.

3. I've heard that someone of you do not use touch of death...well I think it is simply too good addition to dps. Yes is ap intensive(I had to renunce at some healing amplification for it) but it's 250-1500 damage every 15 sec...nothing more to be said.

4. Sequence for me is 10kstars then manyshot then melee till ms cooldown is 1/4 to go then 10k again and so on. Dps in this way are simply awesome. I've completed echrono the other day with 21 kills and only 1 esos barb with more kills than me(and I currently use a normal bow of sinew and +4 puregood acid wraps) I can kill an epic arcane in like 4-5sec with stun+tod, less if I have manyshot ready.

I think that the build works better if you switch melee/ranged 50% each, but this is just mine impression

I'm going to assume that you're referring to the 12 monk / 6 ranger build
1. I don't see that melee combat is going to be that great on a wisdom focused build. On mine I preferred PL: SotF iirc over GTWF as I think +3 att/dam is better than +12.5%, 1/4 of the time, this will likely be open for negotiation though. I'll reconsider IC:B when I roll up the build simply for the synergy with Tharaak Wraps.
2. Yes, I'll plan to swap between ocean III and earth III almost exclusively, do you have these two?
3. ToD is also 50 Ki, at best this could be used once every 2 minutes and it would then impact quite heavily on the ability of the build to keep up 10k stars and shadow fade. In the meantime, static charge is going to add quite considerable DPS while using a LitII bow
4. Why 1:1? That would imply not keeping all abilities on timer which would quickly erode any DPS advantage that ToD is giving you on a wisdom based build.

Take what I say with a grain of salt, just theory for me as haven't used 10k stars yet (1 ranger, 1 AA in my history before 10k stars).

[karl_k0ch]

Sap is an interesting choice and would likely work very well in the context of this build. Hamstring is rogue only afaik.

Iirc, Hamstring needs sneak attack, which you'd have with the rogue dilly.

Edit: But I'm not sure about that.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Iirc, Hamstring needs sneak attack, which you'd have with the rogue dilly.

I know that rogue dilettante qualifies for improved feint, not sure about hamstring. If it does it's certainly a fine option as I've read good things about it, I'd probably lean towards past life feats though as I said (I don't even mind the feat line up that is currently listed).

[savingsoul]

I've played the Uzy VII build up to level 19, and it will ultimately be 6A/6M/8F (see the "UZY" link in my signature). That's a bit different from the 11Ranger/6Monk/3Artificer build, but I'm guessing that the gameplay through levels 1-18 on the 11 ranger build will be quite similar. Uzy VII doesn't get endless fusillade until level 19, so it is basically a 10k stars/MS monkcher up until then; it also has only 6 levels of monk; it is also wisdom based; lastly, it uses elemental weapons, much like you would on the 11 ranger build; so they are very similar.

This is all just my way of saying that in my experience the ratio between ranged and melee is not 1:1. To be sure, I do find myself using melee more than one would expect; for example, if there is simply one or two non-boss enemy stragglers there is little reason to use MS or 10k stars--it's overkill--so instead I'll use melee to build up ki for 10k stars on the next mob. Taking into consideration all the times you use melee on stragglers/loners, the ratio may be closer to 1:1, but in terms of sustained battle 1:1, in my experience, is not the case. Usually, I only engage in melee while MS/10k Stars are on cooldown, and I do so of course to make sure that 10k stars will be available asap. The actual ratio, I would guess, is more like 2:1 in terms of ranged:melee, maybe even closer to 3:1 at times. Implicit in this strategy is that I simply don't use any monk finishers or special attacks; Uzy VII is a light monk, and in terms of enhancements I haven't even invested in any special attacks (and since Uzy VII has 6 levels of arti, I can remove curse, disease, or blindness with 100% success simply using wands; I have no special UMD enhancements or equipment and can currently use a raise dead scroll unbuffed with at least 60% success); I probably would not use them even if I had monk special attacks, as the way to go seems to be to minimize melee as much as possible and preserve ki for 10k stars. I use mountain stance most of the time; I have adept of wind only for the sake of 10k stars; I use lesser ocean stance every now and then, usually alongside the human versatility saves boost, if I need to get through a trap, etc. Whatever, maybe I'm doing something wrong, but minimizing melee seems to work out best for me.

IIRC from another thread, you (wax_on) have warmed up recently on the idea of taking light monk rather than dark monk on 6M builds, and I would basically agree with that. It's a bit more difficult to get dark monk attacks to stick on a 6M build, even if it is wisdom based; light monk buffs, on the other hand, are a sure thing, even if I rarely use them. One of the best things Ninja I has going for it is the passive 1d6 you get on sneak attacks; the other of course is shadow fade; but they cost iirc 10 action points; the enhancements on these builds are tight, so there are a lot of other good options to go with using 10 action points. I'm not saying that one is necessarily better than the other; rather, I'm just agreeing that they both have their advantages, which are likely to be on a par.

[wax_on_wax_off]

I've played the Uzy VII build up to level 19, and it will ultimately be 6A/6M/8F (see the "UZY" link in my signature). That's a bit different from the 11Ranger/6Monk/3Artificer build, but I'm guessing that the gameplay though levels 1-18 on the 11 ranger build will be quite similar. Uzy VII doesn't get endless fusillade until level 19, so it is basically a 10k stars/MS monkcher up until then; it also has only 6 levels of monk; it is also wisdom based; lastly, it uses elemental weapons, much like you would on the 11 ranger build; so they are very similar.

This is all just my way of saying that in my experience the ratio between ranged and melee is not 1:1. To be sure, I do find myself using melee more than one would expect; for example, if there is simply one or two non-boss enemy stragglers there is little reason to use MS or 10k stars--it's overkill--so instead I'll use melee to build up ki for 10k stars on the next mob. Taking into consideration all the times you use melee on stragglers/loners, the ratio may be closer to 1:1, but in terms of sustained battle 1:1, in my experience, is not the case. Usually, I only engage in melee while MS/10k Stars are on cooldown, and I do so of course to make sure that 10k stars will be available asap. The actual ratio, I would guess, is more like 2:1 in terms of ranged:melee, maybe even closer to 3:1 at times. Implicit in this strategy is that I simply don't use any monk finishers or special attacks; Uzy VII is a light monk, and in terms of enhancements I haven't even invested in any special attacks (and since Uzy VII has 6 levels of arti, I can remove curse, disease, or blindness with 100% success simply using wands; I have no special UMD enhancements or equipment and can currently use a raise dead scroll unbuffed with at least 60% success); I probably would not use them even if I had monk special attacks, as the way to go seems to be to minimize melee as much as possible and preserve ki for 10k stars. I use mountain stance most of the time; I have adept of wind only for the sake of 10k stars; I use lesser ocean stance every now and then, usually alongside the human versatility saves boost, if I need to get through a trap, etc. Whatever, maybe I'm doing something wrong, but minimizing melee seems to work out best for me.

IIRC from another thread, you (wax_on) have warmed up recently on the idea of taking light monk rather than dark monk on 6M builds, and I would basically agree with that. It's a bit more difficult to get dark monk attacks to stick on a 6M build, even if it is wisdom based; light monk buffs, on the other hand, are a sure thing, even if I rarely use them. One of the best things Ninja I has going for it is the passive 1d6 you get on sneak attacks; the other of course is shadow fade; but they cost iirc 10 action points; the enhancements on these builds are tight, so there are a lot of other good options to go with using 10 action points. I'm not saying that one is necessarily better than the other; rather, I'm just agreeing that they both have their advantages, which are likely to be on a par.

Informative post, thank you.

The only other thing worth mentioning on the dark monk side is Static Charge and Porous Soul. These moves give mobs 10% lightning or acid vulnerability for 30 seconds respectively which could add considerable personal DPS if combined with a LitII GS Bow or Epic Bow of Earth against relevant targets and possibly massive party DPS considering Eledar's Electric Surge in devil raids or Black Dragon Bolt in Abbot. The Ki issues are less of an issue as in these raids situations you are generally beating quite consistently.

Yes, the two options are more or less on par for a 6 monk build. The deciding factor for me might be the ease at which I will be able to UMD heal scrolls and whether walk of the sun will make a big difference to that.

[savingsoul]

Iirc, Hamstring needs sneak attack, which you'd have with the rogue dilly.

Edit: But I'm not sure about that.

According to the DDO Character Planner, Hamstring requires the full sneak attack feat, and unfortunately the rogue dilly feat does not qualify for it. Improved Feint, on the other hand, allows you to substitute rogue dilly for sneak attack. I know that the Character Planner isn't always fully up-to-date, but in this case, I think it is. The nice thing about Hamstring is that it requires no dc; however, it only affects the enemy's movement speed.

[wax_on_wax_off]

According to the DDO Character Planner, Hamstring requires the full sneak attack feat, and unfortunately the rogue dilly feat does not qualify for it. Improved Feint, on the other hand, allows you to substitute rogue dilly for sneak attack. I know that the Character Planner isn't always fully up-to-date, but in this case, I think it is. The nice thing about Hamstring is that it requires no dc; however, it only affects the enemy's movement speed.

It also effects attack speed for some specific enemies who's attack speed is tied to their movement speed, like Horoth.

[savingsoul]

The deciding factor for me might be the ease at which I will be able to UMD heal scrolls and whether walk of the sun will make a big difference to that.

Using the Uzy VII build, I can estimate level 20 by simply using a +2 cha item to bump up UMD by 1. At level 20, your rate of success on heal scrolls, according to the GUI, will be 40%. With walk of the sun, it jumps up to 50%--a 25% gain. Of course, with equipment and other buffs the marginal gain from walk of the sun will drop in terms of %, but taken alone it is almost the equivalent of Wand and Scroll Mastery I.

The 10% jump seems exaggerated to me, but that's what the GUI says.

[karl_k0ch]

Concept/Goals: A monkcher which sacrifices some possible DPS for better AB, versatility and utility.
Class: 11 ranger / 6 monk / 3 Artificer
...

Skills : Concentration, Balance (10), UMD, Move Silently, Search, Disable Device, Tumble (1), left overs in spot.

wowo, can you do me a favor and show me a class progression which does not suck while leveling, and which manages to get these skills (Balance can be ignored, for my taste)?
My initial impulse is to front-load the ranger levels, due to GTWF and IPS at 11 ran. This means that the last few levels will be either Monk levels, and Arty levels. Both only get 5 skill points. It's possible that you might end up giving up DD, but I'd be very delighted if you can think of something clever which solves that issue.

[wax_on_wax_off]

wowo, can you do me a favor and show me a class progression which does not suck while leveling, and which manages to get these skills (Balance can be ignored, for my taste)?
My initial impulse is to front-load the ranger levels, due to GTWF and IPS at 11 ran. This means that the last few levels will be either Monk levels, and Arty levels. Both only get 5 skill points. It's possible that you might end up giving up DD, but I'd be very delighted if you can think of something clever which solves that issue.

First, second or third life character? +2/3/4 int tome?

Assuming 32 point with a +2 int tome and taking ranger at first level in a best case scenario you can have:
1st Artificer: 12
12 ranger: 60
6 monk: 18
artificer: 6
+2 int tome: 13

107 skill points total.

Best case:
Concentration (23), Balance (10), UMD (4+19*2 cross class=42), Disable Device (4+19*2 cross class=42), Move Silently (23), Search (23), Tumble (1)=164

Quite a discrepancy here. On a 32 point build you'll either have to completely give up Balance and Move Silently or sacrifice 2 points of strength for an extra 4 intelligence.

With 12 starting it (and 14 starting strength on a 32 point build) the equation becomes 153 skill points available and 160 skill points desired so just a few can be knocked out of balance/move silently. When I do this on a 36 point build I'll probably start with 13 or 14 intelligence to pick up spot as well (important for stealth and easier time on traps).

Thanks for bringing the skills issue to my attention, I'll adjust the build accordingly.

Edit: just noticed that the build had 10 instead of the 8 int that I was working off. Adjust accordingly. I've adjusted stats to allow maxing of spot as well.

[karl_k0ch]

whoops, double post.

[karl_k0ch]

First, second or third life character? +2/3/4 int tome?

I'm interested in 34pt, with +2 int tome, as indicated in your OP 10 Starting int.

Assuming 32 point with a +2 int tome and taking ranger at first level in a best case scenario you can have:
1st Artificer: 12
12 ranger: 60
6 monk: 18
artificer: 6
+2 int tome: 13

107 skill points total.

...that's starting with 8 int, and for 12/6/2, not 11/6/3.

These are the numbers for 11/6/3, and 10 base int.

Starting with ranger, you get:
1st Ranger: 24
10 more ranger: 60
6 monk: 24
3 arty: 12
+2 int tome: 13
---
133. A much more pleasant number.

Starting with Artificer, you get:
1st Arty: 16
11 ranger: 66
6 monk: 24
2 more arty: 8
+2 int tome: 13
----
127. Not too bad as well, considering that you have UMD and DD to dump your ranger skill points into, from the very start.

And just for giggles, consider 3 rogue instead of 3 arty (I will come back to this later):

1st Rogue: 32
11 ranger: 66
6 monk: 24
2 more rogue: 16
+2 int tome: 13
----
151.

Best case:
Concentration (23), Balance (10), UMD (4+19*2 cross class=42), Disable Device (4+19*2 cross class=42), Move Silently (23), Search (23), Tumble (1)=164

That's only the best case for taking 2 Arty levels while leveling. If you take 3, then you can spend 4 more class-skill points on UMD and DD, ending up with 160 (still 27 short).
If you take Arty first, you can put 4 + 4 at the first level in DD and UMD, and 8 more during the 2 arty levels ups, resulting in a total number of 16 class skill points for DD and UMD, ending up with 148, i.e. 21 skill points short.

Now to come back to the rogue splash. I know that there is a lot of redundancy in splashing another Evasion class with SA damage, but I think that the advantages outweigh the disadvantages of 3 Rogue over 3 Arty in this kind of build.

Both options get:

• Wand and Scroll Mastery I with 30% amp
• UMD, Disable and OL as a class skill
• Access to wrack construct

3 Arty gets:

• Smasher of Boxes and puller of levers
• +2 Scroll UMD
• +1 UMD enhancement
• Level 1 and 2 infusions
• A free feat slot from Energy of Creation
• More SP.

3 Rogue gets:

• Haste Boost I
• More skill points (see above)
• More versatility with the dillettante feat (Cleric for better Heal scroll chance while leveling, Fighter for better Sunder/Stunning Fist DC, Barb for more HP, at the expense of 1d6 or 2d6 SA damage)

Imho, the haste boost and the skill points alone warrant a rogue splash. However, another option is to ignore Search and DD, eliminating 58-63 skill points from the 'best case' list. I'm not saying that 3 rogue is strictly better, but it looks like a viable option.

Another thing from your intial post:

Improved Sunder (15)

This needs Power Attack.

Edit: I put together a build sketch: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...62#post4348962

[savingsoul]

wowo, can you do me a favor and show me a class progression which does not suck while leveling . . .

I see that you and wax_on have partly addressed the skill points, and I know your original inquiry is for wax_on; I'm sure he'll get around to addressing the full level progression eventually. In the meantime, I can offer a little insight on the level progression from a similar build, which is Uzy VI (see my signature for the "UZY" thread). Its ultimate class split is 6Ranger/6Monk/8Artificer rather than 11Ranger/6Monk/3Artificer, but the level progression for the first few levels may be similar or the same.

The key feature of these monkcher builds is manyshot and 10k stars, so it seems to me that most people would want to have these asap. That is one factor. Another is that you probably want artificer up front, if not first, for access to DD and repeating x-bows. That is a second factor. Another is that you probably want at least the first 6 ranger levels fairly up front as they provide perhaps the nicest cluster of feats available from merely 6 levels in the entire game. That is a third factor. Yet another is that you also want a monk level fairly early in the leveling process so you have access to handwraps and the wisdom bonus to AC, as you'll probably be missing a lot otherwise if dual-wielding with merely 14-16 str on any other weapon. That is a four factor. I also like to have evasion up front, though others tend to wait on it.

Taking these factors into consideration, these appear to be the most viable progressions for the 11Ranger/6Monk/3Artificer build:

1-Artificer
2-3 Monk
4-9 Ranger
10-13 Monk
14-15 Artificer
16-20 Ranger

1-Artificer
2-Monk
3-8 Ranger
9-10 Artificer
11-15 Monk
16-20 Ranger

1-Ranger
2-Artificer
3-4 Monk
5-9 Ranger
10-13 Monk
14-15 Artificer
16-20 Ranger

1-Ranger
2-Artificer
3-Monk
4-8 Ranger
9-10 Artificer
11-15 Monk
16-20 Ranger

There are a couple more variations possible; but these represent the basic idea. I'm partial to the ones that give 10k stars at level 13, as they are similar to the progressions I've experienced first hand.