So how can Dwarven Defender be released without breaking the game?

[grodon9999]

Would a pally have the APs for this even to be possible? I'm asking as I don't know.

Yeah, that combo would be silly.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Would a pally have the APs for this even to be possible? I'm asking as I don't know.

Yeah, that combo would be silly.

You'd give up a fair chunk of the higher tiers of various abilities to to pick up DD but I'm sure that it could be fit in surely?

I don't see any reason that DD has to be exclusive with any Paladin PrE - even DoS - as long as the stances are exclusive.

Maybe the solution to fix the lack of revenue incentive here is to possibly make it a favour unlock, possibly 400 house K favour? (is that possible yet?) Though I'd hoped that House Kundarak Dragonmark Heir would be slotted in there.

Perhaps make Dwarven Defender P2P (free to VIPs)?

Perhaps release some Dwarven subraces at the same time as releasing DD so people will be encouraged to buy a new subrace for their future Dwarven Defender.

Are gold dwarves around on Eberron/Xendrik? Iirc they are similar/identical just -2 dex instead of -2 charisma, perfect for your paladin DD. This could be a free to VIP/P2P option.

Duergar are fun too, I mean, we have Drow so why not these too? Paralysis, poison, phantasm immunity makes them a good choice for rogues, maybe they could be spiced up in other ways to encourage people to spend some $ on them if they don't unlock them through favour.

[voodoogroves]

Might be better to come at it backwards.

What combos do you think should work?
What ones do you think should not?

Run through some basic examples, etc.


Radiant Servant? Warpriest? Kensai? PDK? SD? Warchanter?

etc.

[FranOhmsford]

Might be better to come at it backwards.

What combos do you think should work?
What ones do you think should not?

Run through some basic examples, etc.


Radiant Servant? Warpriest? Kensai? PDK? SD? Warchanter?

etc.

Combos are wish to see:

Radiant Servant/Dwarven Defender
Warpriest/Dwarven Defender
Acrobat/Dwarven Defender

I'd also like to see:

Kensai/Drow Assassin
Virtuoso/Drow Assassin
Deepwood Sniper/Drow Assassin

I'm fed up to the back teeth of seeing:

Warforged Fav Souls
Warforged Sorcerors
Warforged AMs/PMs

I do NOT wish to see:

Any Uber combination that removes all other options - i.e. Ninja/Defender, Acid Savant/Defender, PM/Defender

Some love for Elves/Halflings wouldn't go amiss either BUT ftm concentrating on Dwarves and Drow.

[Failedlegend]

Please refrain from suggesting that Turbine should add PrEs to the DDO Store

[Chai]

Please refrain from suggesting that Turbine should add PrEs to the DDO Store

Why not? Then I can get my class, race, and eSOS in the same place.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Might be better to come at it backwards.

What combos do you think should work?
What ones do you think should not?

Run through some basic examples, etc.


Radiant Servant? Warpriest? Kensai? PDK? SD? Warchanter?

etc.

Well the only ones that shouldn't work are fighter PrEs as DD counts as one of them. Beyond that? They should all work and all be viable without being OP.

The clarifications that I think should be made are:
1. It shouldn't be possible to make a pure 3/4 BAB class with tier 3 DD. You should have to splash at least 2 levels of a full BAB class to qualify. Tier 3 isnt necessary though to function so it becomes a cost/benefit situation; do I splash for it or stay pure?
2. It shouldn't be possible to make a pure 1/2 BAB class with tier 2 DD. You should have to splash at least 2 levels of a full BAB class to qualify. Reasons as for 1.

The 6/11/16 BAB requirement neatly accomplishes this goal without putting feat restrictions on that will ruin access for feat starved classes.

Suggested feat requirements for tier 1 DD: Toughness, Dodge
Maybe add another feat requirement for tier 2 or 3 like diehard (as a substitute for endurance).

Enhancement requirements:
Tier 1: Racial Toughness II, shield mastery I, Spell Defense I, one of: Giant Dodger I or Armour Mastery I
Tier 2: Racial Toughness III, shield mastery II, Spell Defense II, one of: Giant Dodger II or Armour Mastery II
Tier 3: Racial Toughness IV, shield mastery III, Spell Defense III, one of: Giant Dodger III or Armour Mastery III

Ok, maybe 34-40 as an AP requirement is bit steep but most of these are good to take anyway. Suggested adjustments?

[voodoogroves]

Pegging them with shield mastery essentially makes them shield tanks ... that's not a judgement, an observation.

I'd make it

Must: Racial Toughness 2/3/4, Maybe put some lore/fluff background in and require giant dodger.

One of: Spell Defense, Shield Mastery, Armor Mastery (at appropriate rank for PRE rank)

[wax_on_wax_off]

Ok, here goes my idea for a full layout:

Dwarven Defender PrE, 345 points from the Turbine Store, free to VIPs.
(I realise that DD being paid content is very unpopular but there are 2 very important reasons for this. 1; without it being paid then releasing DD would actually reduce revenue as people would be less inclined to purchase paid races when there is a free race that is so competitive in so many areas. 2; F2P accounts/new players without access to other races would find that dwarf is the best race for most builds if DD was introduced.)

Dwarven Defender I
Usage: Passive
Cost: 4 action points
Progression: 16 action points, Base Attack Bonus: 6
Requires One of: Giant Dodger I or Armour Mastery I
Requires All of: Dodge, Toughness, Racial Toughness II, shield mastery I, Spell Defense I, Dwarven Constitution I
Available to Dwarf level 8
You are a hero of your people. This prestige enhancement increases your armor class by 1, grants +2 to your intimidate skill, increases your maximum dexterity bonus allowed by shields, and grants additional armor class and damage reduction when blocking with a shield. In addition, when you have a one handed melee weapon and shield equipped, you possess DR 2/- and your threat generation is increased by 25%. You gain 1 DR that stacks with all other forms of DR. Also, you may enter a defensive stance 3 times/day. You gain trap sense.
This enhancement automatically grants the following:

Dwarven Defender I: Defensive Stance
3 times/day you can become a bastion of defense, gaining a +2 Competence bonus to Strength and Constitution, +10% maximum hit points, a +1 Competence bonus on all saves, and a +2 Dodge bonus to Armor Class. You also gain a 25% Competence bonus to threat generated. While in this stance, you move 25% slower.

Trap Sense I
You gain the following bonuses:
+1 on reflex saving throws vs. traps
+1 Armor Class vs. trap attacks.


Dwarven Defender II
Usage: Passive
Cost: 2 action points
Progression: 42 action points, 11 BAB
Requires One of: Giant Dodger II or Armour Mastery II
Requires All of: Diehard, Racial Toughness III, shield mastery II, Spell Defense II, Dwarven Constitution II
Available to Dwarf level 14
Your defensive mastery continues to grow. In addition to the bonuses of Dwarven Defender I, this prestige enhancement increases your armor class by 1, grants +2 to your intimidate skill, increases your maximum dexterity bonus allowed by heavy armor and shields, and grants additional armor class and damage reduction when blocking with a shield. In addition, when you have a one handed melee weapon and shield equipped, your DR is upgraded from DR 2/- to DR 4/-, and you now generate 50% additional threat. Your inherent stacking DR improves by +1. Also, you may enter a defensive stance 4 times/day. You gain uncanny dodge and your trap sense improves.
This enhancement automatically grants the following:

Dwarven Defender II: Improved Defensive Stance
4 times/day you may become a bastion of defense, gaining a +4 Competence bonus to Strength and Constitution, +15% maximum hit points, a +2 Competence bonus on all saves, and a +3 Dodge bonus to Armor Class. You also gain a 50% Competence bonus to threat generated. While in this stance, you move 15% slower.

Trap Sense II
You gain the following bonuses:
+2 on reflex saving throws vs. traps
+2 Armor Class vs. trap attacks.

Uncanny Dodge
Cooldown: 30 seconds.
Usage: Active
This feat can be activated by the character to receive a +4 dodge bonus to both AC and reflex saving throw for 15 seconds.


Dwarven Defender III
Usage: Passive
Cost: 2 action points
Progression: 66 action points, 16 Base Attack Bonus
Requires One of: Giant Dodger III or Armour Mastery III
Requires All of: Racial Toughness IV, shield mastery III, Spell Defense III
Available to Dwarf class level 20
Your defensive mastery is complete. This prestige enhancement increases your armor class by +1, grants +2 to intimidate, increases your maximum dexterity bonus allowed by medium or heavy armor and shields, and grants additional armor class and damage reduction when blocking with a shield. In addition, when you have a one handed melee weapon and shield equipped, you possess DR 6/-. 5 times/day you may enter a Superior Defensive Stance.Your inherent stacking DR improves by +1. Your trap sense improves and you gain improved uncanny dodge and mobile defense.
This enhancement automatically grants the following:

Dwarven Defender III: Superior Defensive Stance
5 times/day you may become a bastion of defense, gaining a +6 Competence bonus to Strength and Constitution, +20% maximum hit points, a +3 Competence bonus on all saves, and a +4 Dodge bonus to Armor Class. You also gain a 75% Competence bonus to threat generated. While in this stance, you move 15% slower.

Trap Sense III
You gain the following bonuses:
+3 on reflex saving throws vs. traps
+3 Armor Class vs. trap attacks.

Improved Uncanny Dodge
Cooldown: 30 seconds
Usage: Active
This feat provides both a passive and an active benefit to the character:
Passive: This feat prevents monsters from receiving the flanking bonus when the character is attacked from the side or from behind. This defense also denies a rogue the ability to sneak attack the barbarian by flanking him, unless the attacker has at least four more rogue levels than the target has barbarian levels. (The above is also true for Rogue versus Rogue.)
Active: This feat can be activated by the character to receive a +6 dodge bonus to both AC and reflex saving throw for 30 seconds. The cooldown is also 30 seconds so this can be used continuously until all charges are depleted.

Mobile Defense
This reduces the movement penalty while in defensive stance from 25% to 15%.

Notes:
Inherent stacking DR is a nice perk that will work nicely with other builds without being OP due to the BAB and AP requirements. A pure FvS could burn 2 feats (dodge and diehard) and end up with 12 DR/silver or cold iron, a monk could splash and gain 11/- in grandmaster earth stance or stay pure and gain 12/epic (but miss out on some very nice enhancements), a barbarian could get 11/- or 12/- (depending on if you splash), an arcane could improve their stoneskin to 11/adamantine or 12/adamantine (depending on if you splash).

The higher movement speed penalty and lack of extra action boost enhancements (which should affect stance uses) will balance a lot of builds that would have been OP more balanced (pure FvS, monks, arcanes etc) by restricting the use of the stance to times when you aren't moving (as it's too slow otherwise) and then the uses/day becomes important. It's important that even with the penalty that you don't still end up moving faster than a normal character (probably only a fighter splashed monk with tier 3 DD could achieve this now which is very AP intensive on a monk).

Trap sense, mobile defense and (improved) uncanny dodge are fluff on the original DD from the SRD. While this stuff is useful I don't think it is OP.

Dwarven Shield Mastery reads like it will increase blocking DR whether you have a shield equipped or not. I think it is important that it does (change it to if it doesn't already) for monk and ranger builds (among others).

I realise that the AP cost is steep but it is important that it is so to balance builds like monk. The important thing about this PrE is that it is useful at all tiers (unlike AA) so if the highest tier (which is where most the AP cost is) is too costly - 15+ APs - then tier 2 will still function perfectly fine for most characters (movement penalty notwithstanding). However, on, for instance, a pure fighter Dwarven Defender you would want to take most of the enhancements anyway (unless you weren't going for AC) so the cost is reasonable overall (the only fluff for such a build would be the 6 spent on shield mastery). Another reason for the increased cost in comparison to - for instance - Stalwart Defender is that this has quite a few perks that Stalwart Defender doesn't (and hence should cost more).

Any reference to the type of damage that you do increasing threat generation is removed so any form of damage will have the threat amplified. This could be a blessing and a curse at times (as you can't turn off the passive portion of it). This will also act as a considerable balancing force for otherwise OP builds like divines and arcanes as your ability to function in a non-tanking role dealing damage will be restricted. Possibly the non-stance threat bonus could be reduced for non-melee attacks to not completely mess people up.

Coming back to the TP cost, I'm a freemium player and I've done my very best to maximise my enjoyment of this game while minimising my spending (on principle). Putting this in the store would severely limit my access to it (until it came up on sale probably) but objectively it is the right thing to do (to maintain balance on f2p accounts and not decrease revenue).

[voodoogroves]

I personally would pull shield mastery out of "must" and into "one of".

I also have no idea how to work the stance, since stances tend to cancel each other and make wonky things happen. I keep thinking about the DoS / DD and if that's allowed, it needs to interop.


What would you think of, instead of a "stance", a boost that gives a flat % reduction in damage taken and an increase in threat?

[wax_on_wax_off]

I personally would pull shield mastery out of "must" and into "one of".

I also have no idea how to work the stance, since stances tend to cancel each other and make wonky things happen. I keep thinking about the DoS / DD and if that's allowed, it needs to interop.


What would you think of, instead of a "stance", a boost that gives a flat % reduction in damage taken and an increase in threat?

That would affect 2 classes I think; barbarians and paladins.

It would be OP for paladins to let them take DoS and DD and have everything stack. Much better that KotC or UH (for healing amp) is considered. DoS might still be an option for it's other bonuses (Passive AC and righteous stand) and the list of enhancements that you'd want to take anyway on a tank build. It would also give 2 stances to use so you swap between them or not worry about exhausting them if you are popping in and out of stance (for instance if you die a bit).

It would be mostly fine for barbarians. I think the way to deal with DD's and barbarians would be to allow a DD to rage while in stance but for the stat bonuses not to stack. This still leaves a lot of nice stuff without it being OP (as otherwise DD barbarian and horc barbarian would have similar possible strength scores).

[wax_on_wax_off]

I personally would pull shield mastery out of "must" and into "one of".

I don't think that there is any need for shield mastery to appear at all in the PrE. It's such a good feat that any DD that can use it will take it and any that cant (monks, maybe rangers) won't take it. Thematically if we are going to allow monk DD's (which I think we should) then I don't see any reason to make them take shield mastery.

If you wanted to make shield mastery a "one of ..." then you'd need to add another tier of requirements that would only hurt monk featwise (as any other class would probably take it). Perhaps the alternative could be improved two weapon defense/blocking if it was fixed to work with unarmed combat (though I guess encouraging monks to use kamas for maximum AC might be a good thing).

If this adjustment was made then I would want to see tempest offhand procs work with bucklers for bashing. Also it might affect barbarians who would have otherwise gone pure and not used a shield (which might be a good thing).

[mournbladereigns]

Comments in violet.

Just a general point, what is the reason behind not being able to take another prestige class in the class your racial prestige came from? I understand not being able to take the same one, but it would be nice to make, say, a DWS AA elf.

Because it would be double specializing and thus OP. Who wouldn't make an Elven Tempest/AA or whatever, etc.

[Angelus_dead]

Because it would be double specializing and thus OP. Who wouldn't make an Elven Tempest/AA or whatever, etc.

Well, hypothetically Arcane Archer + Deepwood Sniper would be overpowered, except that Deppwood Sniper is terrible.

But Tempest + Arcane Archer would be perfectly acceptable, and in fact a character would be nerfing himself if he spent all the feats and APs to train both of them. In general, the idea of racial specialties locking out all three specialties of a certain class does not make sense: it should be set on a case by case basis.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Well, hypothetically Arcane Archer + Deepwood Sniper would be overpowered, except that Deppwood Sniper is terrible.

But Tempest + Arcane Archer would be perfectly acceptable, and in fact a character would be nerfing himself if he spent all the feats and APs to train both of them. In general, the idea of racial specialties locking out all three specialties of a certain class does not make sense: it should be set on a case by case basis.

Tempest + AA would be OP. The feats can be worked around with a splash (12 ranger would be ideal) and I've never thought that ranger a class was particularly AP strapped.

12 ranger / 6 monk / 2 fighter half elf with rogue dilettante, tempest II, NSI, AA would be ridiculous (and the build definitely has the feats and AP to spare).

This suggestion would also marginalise all ranged builds to the point that if you ever pulled out a bow while manyshot/10k stars on timer you would be seriously gimping your DPS.

[grodon9999]

Tempest + AA would be OP. The feats can be worked around with a splash (12 ranger would be ideal) and I've never thought that ranger a class was particularly AP strapped.

12 ranger / 6 monk / 2 fighter half elf with rogue dilettante, tempest II, NSI, AA would be ridiculous (and the build definitely has the feats and AP to spare).

This suggestion would also marginalise all ranged builds to the point that if you ever pulled out a bow while manyshot/10k stars on timer you would be seriously gimping your DPS.

Is a guys with both a Tempest and an AA . . . no way in hell could you afford the APs unless you gimped something else majorly.

[zex95966]

Is a guys with both a Tempest and an AA . . . no way in hell could you afford the APs unless you gimped something else majorly.

umm tempest 1 has no AP requirements, and tempest 2 and 3 only require ranger dex 2.

[aerendhil]

Ok, here goes my idea for a full layout:

Dwarven Defender PrE, 345 points from the Turbine Store, free to VIPs.
(I realise that DD being paid content is very unpopular but there are 2 very important reasons for this. 1; without it being paid then releasing DD would actually reduce revenue as people would be less inclined to purchase paid races when there is a free race that is so competitive in so many areas. 2; F2P accounts/new players without access to other races would find that dwarf is the best race for most builds if DD was introduced.)

NO !
WAY !
EVER !

>:0[

Dwarf is F2P race, keep it so.
Also, making a feature pay-to-win is no solution to a so-called balance problem.

[voodoogroves]

I don't think that there is any need for shield mastery to appear at all in the PrE. It's such a good feat that any DD that can use it will take it and any that cant (monks, maybe rangers) won't take it. Thematically if we are going to allow monk DD's (which I think we should) then I don't see any reason to make them take shield mastery.

Poor, poor Meathead.


I'm not a fan of "taxes" in PRE requirements for AP, but that's me.

[Chai]

Tempest + AA would be OP. The feats can be worked around with a splash (12 ranger would be ideal) and I've never thought that ranger a class was particularly AP strapped.

No way. Tempest + AA would not be OP. Kensai + AA (which can both be had at the same time) is not OP, and its more damage than tempest.

12 ranger / 6 monk / 2 fighter half elf with rogue dilettante, tempest II, NSI, AA would be ridiculous (and the build definitely has the feats and AP to spare).

Theres quite a few 12 fighter 6 ranger 2 monk half elves running around with kensai 2 and full AA - they are good builds, but not really OP.

This suggestion would also marginalise all ranged builds to the point that if you ever pulled out a bow while manyshot/10k stars on timer you would be seriously gimping your DPS.

You mean, like it is right now?