So how can Dwarven Defender be released without breaking the game?

[grodon9999]

Title asks it all . . . how can Turbine release this PRE that many of us would love to see without breaking the game worse than it already is?

Dwarf wizard/sorc/FvS with +6 CON and 20% HP would be beyond broken in this current state of the game especially since the poorly implemented shield-mastery (they never should have seperated damage mitigation from AC) helps casters way more than it helps melees.

So . . . how can this be implemented without making things worse?

Apply the Combat Expertise double-SP cost penalty to defender stance. I think that would do it, you'd be insane to want this stance on a caster.

Any other ideas?

[redspecter23]

If the pre has conflicting feat requirements with what you'd want on your caster anyway, then you would really have to consider that price. Also it could eat up quite a few AP's, so you really could theoretically give up a good amount of what makes a caster good in order to beef yourself up defensively. If the cost is appropriate, then I say let them have +6 con and 20% more HP. It doesn't necessarily have to be a carbon copy of the requirements for the fighter defender line.

[Darkrok]

If the pre has conflicting feat requirements with what you'd want on your caster anyway, then you would really have to consider that price. Also it could eat up quite a few AP's, so you really could theoretically give up a good amount of what makes a caster good in order to beef yourself up defensively. If the cost is appropriate, then I say let them have +6 con and 20% more HP. It doesn't necessarily have to be a carbon copy of the requirements for the fighter defender line.

IIRC it couldn't be a carbon copy of the fighter defender line anyways as some of the ap requirements are class specific.

I think it will be fine and make for an interesting trade-off between casting ability and overall toon toughness. I know that with only 6ap's as cost (for the elven line to lower shield ASF) and 2 feats (shield prof/shield mastery) I already feel the pinch on my elven 18/2 rog pale master that uses a shield. It's worth it to me but I miss those 2 feats quite a bit.

[JOTMON]

Add it to the DDO store for 1495 Turbine points.

Turbine has $_$ in their eyes..

If they think it will generate money then it will get fastracked.

[FranOhmsford]

Dwarven Defender/Radiant Servant = Finally I can play a true AD&D Battle Cleric {Dwarven Champions were one of the best kits available in 2nd Ed.}.

Dwarves are pretty weak comparatively as casters so I can't really see many people opting for dwarf defender/pale master over Warforged, human or h-elf PM. for example.

Fav Souls and Sorcerors would be in the same boat.

Of course I am also eagerly awaiting Warpriest and Exorcist.

[Chette]

I'd still take an extra feat and human adaptability over this stance on just about any fleshy caster. Plus dwarves are ugly

[Grailhawk]

Arcane Spell Failure +75% or something and the double sp cost. Might still have FVS and Clerics take it to be Battle Clerics but I can let that slide.

[Ytteri]

Well here's the SRD entry for DD:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeCl...enDefender.htm


It has a BAB requirement of 7 for the first level which should discourage non-warriors, and feat requirements of Dodge, Endurance and Toughness.

Endurance isn't in DDO so I guess Shield Mastery would be a good replacement keeping with the theme of the class.


I would think it should be a tiered prestige with different BAB requirements for each tier, locking out different classes as it goes. That with the feat requirements ought to discourage most non-melee builds from using it.

Tier 1:
Requirements Dodge and BAB 7 (0.5 BAB classes reach at lvl 14, 0.75 BAB classes lvl 10)
Grants:
- Defensive Stance tier 1 (same as stalwart or defender stances, doesn't stack)
- Uncanny Dodge

Tier 2:
Requires Shield Mastery, BAB 12 (locks out 0.5 BAB classes completely, 0.75 BAB classes reach at lvl 16)
Grants:
- Defensive Stance tier 2
- DR 3/-
- Improved Uncanny Dodge

Tier 3:
Requires Toughness, BAB 17 (Full BAB classes only)
Grants:
- Defensive Stance tier 3
- DR 6/-

[FranOhmsford]

Going back to my Dwarf BattleCleric theme Elven AA starts at lvl 8, I see no reason why Dwarven Defender shouldn't also start at lvl 8.

Tier 2 I'd actually be happy with lvl 16 here and Tier 3 at lvl 20 if at all {maybe if they raised the cap we could see tier 3 at lvl 24.

Chances are I'd still consider at least one lvl of fighter maybe 2 but that wouldn't give much of a boost to my BAB as a Cleric and I don't wish to see Dwarven Defender being unable to be used by Clerics as it thematically suits.

I honestly cannot see casters taking this PrE anyway as it would cause all sorts of problems with their primary focus.

Remembering that as with Elven AA being unavailable to Tempest/Deepwoods Dwarven Defender would be unavailable to Kensais/Dragon Knights {if they ever become available themselves} and Defender of Siberys Paladins so by your examples would be only useful for KotCs and HotDs as Frenzied Barbs would be unlikely to take this PrE anyway.

[transtemporal]

I don't think it would be so bad. If AA is anything to go by, the feat/ap requirements will make it prohibitive enough that you won't be able to take it without making hefty sacrifices elsewhere. Plus it would actually give folks a reason to make a dorf.

[Chai]

Title asks it all . . . how can Turbine release this PRE that many of us would love to see without breaking the game worse than it already is?

Dwarf wizard/sorc/FvS with +6 CON and 20% HP would be beyond broken in this current state of the game especially since the poorly implemented shield-mastery (they never should have seperated damage mitigation from AC) helps casters way more than it helps melees.

So . . . how can this be implemented without making things worse?

Apply the Combat Expertise double-SP cost penalty to defender stance. I think that would do it, you'd be insane to want this stance on a caster.

Any other ideas?

Combat expertise is a whopping 5 AC. Most tanks I know swap it out later on anyhow when their AC is overkill for everything it is useful for. Instead of having 98 AC thery have 93.

Wizard or sorc wouldnt go for AC anyhow. Even if they required combat expertise it would be like cleave on a barbarian, taken simply to unlock the PRE. Neither defender PRE right now requires it, as it is on a list of "requires one of" - and on that same list is shield mastery, for both fighter and paladin. Would be a no brainer.

[voodoogroves]

Even at double SP I can see dwarven FVS and Clerics still tanking, since they can self heal.

What about ...

Dwarven Defender 1: Requires Improved Intimidate 1

That right there limits it to a level 18 caster ... right?

Dwarven Defender 2: Requires Improved Intimidate 2

That limits it to a level 16 caster (since intimidate 2 requires level 4 barb/rogue/pal/fighter)

Dwarven Defender 3: Requires Improved Intimidate 3

That limits it to a level 12 caster



So you could do it ... but honestly you're making some trade-offs. You might be able to self heal, but you're not looking like you can be some super caster. If you change the weight and back-weight DD (SD is kinda front-loaded) then it may provide a boost to dwarven casters who want to tank ... but not break anything horribly.

[maddmatt70]

200 hit points vs. the self healing of a warforge caster? still think in most scenarios in game warforge are better. Where dc matters human is better of course then either warforge or dwarf would be. For cleric/fvs its human vs. dwarf and quite frankly I see 650+ hp human with max wisdom and much higher healing amp so healing word rocks on self and thus humans are more spell efficient. Not sure I agree with anything you say here.

So dwarf would have more hit points and can tank more, but on many thing that matter spells are inefficient for tanking purposes or humans or warforge spellcasters can tank just as well as a higher hit point dwarf so what have yeah..

Really there is no reason to be dwarf wizard/sorc/cleric/fvs right now and this gives players a reason to roll one so bring it on..

[FranOhmsford]

Even at double SP I can see dwarven FVS and Clerics still tanking, since they can self heal.

What about ...

Dwarven Defender 1: Requires Improved Intimidate 1

That right there limits it to a level 18 caster ... right?

Dwarven Defender 2: Requires Improved Intimidate 2

That limits it to a level 16 caster (since intimidate 2 requires level 4 barb/rogue/pal/fighter)

Dwarven Defender 3: Requires Improved Intimidate 3

That limits it to a level 12 caster



So you could do it ... but honestly you're making some trade-offs. You might be able to self heal, but you're not looking like you can be some super caster. If you change the weight and back-weight DD (SD is kinda front-loaded) then it may provide a boost to dwarven casters who want to tank ... but not break anything horribly.

A caster cleric is not going to take Dwarven Defender {they're not even gonna go Dwarf}. This is going to take away the whole point of taking Dwarven Defender on a cleric i.e. not having to take fighter levels to be a good melee {yes you're prob still gonna take one fighter lvl if you want to use a two hander, 2 for the extra feats}.

This PrE is surely going to be at it's best for melee cleric/FS who aren't Warforged - It is Not going to be of much benefit to casters {whether FS/Cleric/Wiz/Sorc/Bard} unless the Devs get it horribly wrong.

As of now no-one in their right mind would go 12Cleric/8 Fighter {simply for the .... they'd get from groups}. Making Dwarven Defender require this would be the complete opposite of what's needed.

Let's face it if Dwarven Defender gave Axe/Warhammer Profs to those who took said PrE Clerics wouldn't take any fighter lvls.

[hit_fido]

If there is an opportunity to make the game much more dynamic and interesting for some melee characters that has a side effect of making some already vastly dominant caster characters marginally more dominant, then for god sake do it. Holding back potentially fun advances for (dwarf) melee for fear of (dwarf) casters doesn't strike me as a good way to address melee/caster balance...

My real concern is that Turbine simply wont bother with the PrE. Dwarves aren't a pay race, there's no evident interest in introducing epic dwarven axes, and still only two named dwarven axes in the game. Sounds like greensteel dwarven axes will lose some luster pretty soon too. Just not much going on under the mountain so to speak.

Title asks it all . . . how can Turbine release this PRE that many of us would love to see without breaking the game worse than it already is?

[voodoogroves]

A caster cleric is not going to take Dwarven Defender {they're not even gonna go Dwarf}. This is going to take away the whole point of taking Dwarven Defender on a cleric i.e. not having to take fighter levels to be a good melee {yes you're prob still gonna take one fighter lvl if you want to use a two hander, 2 for the extra feats}.

This PrE is surely going to be at it's best for melee cleric/FS who aren't Warforged - It is Not going to be of much benefit to casters {whether FS/Cleric/Wiz/Sorc/Bard} unless the Devs get it horribly wrong.

As of now no-one in their right mind would go 12Cleric/8 Fighter {simply for the .... they'd get from groups}. Making Dwarven Defender require this would be the complete opposite of what's needed.

Let's face it if Dwarven Defender gave Axe/Warhammer Profs to those who took said PrE Clerics wouldn't take any fighter lvls.

That was kinda my point ... to make it so that tier 1 is useful but the later tiers were too much of a sacrifice.

I'm not advocating 12/8 builds ... I'm advocating a setup similar to the SD / DOS situation where you simply can't have both full casting and a full defending PRE.

[FranOhmsford]

That was kinda my point ... to make it so that tier 1 is useful but the later tiers were too much of a sacrifice.

I'm not advocating 12/8 builds ... I'm advocating a setup similar to the SD / DOS situation where you simply can't have both full casting and a full defending PRE.

Unfortunately your example takes it too far - I can see your point for Sorcerors/Wizards of course though I really don't believe this would give them enough of a melee boost to justify losing the casting power from all the enhancement points/feats it would require.

For Favoured Souls - Well we've already got Warforged Melee FS who pretty much rule the game. I see no problem with bringing Dwarves up to par here.

Back to my theme - Cleric - The hatred towards battle clerics in this game is not without reason, Clerics actually need a melee boost which this PrE would provide {for Dwarfs only of course}. Tier 1 of this possible PrE on top of Radiant Servant is not going to be enough.

In AD&D Clerics were quite capable of melee {in many cases as good as a fighter}. Up to the total change with 3rd Ed. Cleric/Fighter Multiclass was extremely popular. For me Dwarven Defender is needed to allow for real Battle Clerics in DDO.

H-Elves already get the fighter Dilly which gives them proficiency with all melee weapons, Warforged get Lord of Blades and Humans get an extra feat. I believe one of the bonuses of Dwarven Defender should be Warhammer/D-Axe prof {maybe G-Axe too}.

If someone wants to multiclass fighter/cleric they will still be able to do so but Dwarven Defender would give pure clerics a melee boost.

As for other classes the only ones I can see taking this PrE would be KotC AND HotD Paladins. Let's face it the damage this would do to DoS Pallys would be far worse than your worries about Stalwart Casters.

[wax_on_wax_off]

That was kinda my point ... to make it so that tier 1 is useful but the later tiers were too much of a sacrifice.

I'm not advocating 12/8 builds ... I'm advocating a setup similar to the SD / DOS situation where you simply can't have both full casting and a full defending PRE.

I think a BAB 11 requirement on tier 2 or 3 of DD would be important. An 18 wizard / 2 fighter dwarven defender dwarf with tier 2 PrE (or even possibly tier 3) wouldn't be unbalanced as you're already sacrificing 2 DC by going dwarf and splashing at all.

Dodge and Toughness are the traditional feat requirements and they fit nicely as one is a feat you get anyway and then there is 1 useless feat (in most situations).

Bigger trick will be determining its appropriatenessness for monk. Do you want a pure monk to be able to hit tier 3 or should splashing 2 levels of a full BAB class be required?

Perhaps like this:
Tier 1, BAB 6, character level 8
Tier 2, BAB 11, character level 14 (so an arcane needs to splash 2 of a full BAB class to qualify).
Tier 3, BAB 16, character level 20 (so to get tier 3 on a monk/divine you need minimum of 2 fighter/paly etc).

An otherwise carbon copy of fighter stalwart defender would be close to fine with fighter specific enhancements replaced with dwarf specific enhancements (some useless ones of course). Some of the unique things that DD offers according to SRD should definitely be included to provide an incentive to create a pure fighter DD.

Bring on the DD, I want my dwarven defender monk!

Another question should be, can a dwarven paladin choose DD and DoS? What about DD and KotC?

[Battlehawke]

Personally, I'm thinking a Pure Monk with Stalwart III could be pretty interesting. 880ish HP, 120ish AC, nice saves and evasion...Monk Dwarven Defender... has a nice ring to it..

[Grenada]

I think a BAB 11 requirement on tier 2 or 3 of DD would be important. An 18 wizard / 2 fighter dwarven defender dwarf with tier 2 PrE (or even possibly tier 3) wouldn't be unbalanced as you're already sacrificing 2 DC by going dwarf and splashing at all.

Dodge and Toughness are the traditional feat requirements and they fit nicely as one is a feat you get anyway and then there is 1 useless feat (in most situations).

Bigger trick will be determining its appropriatenessness for monk. Do you want a pure monk to be able to hit tier 3 or should splashing 2 levels of a full BAB class be required?
Would maybe limiting it so that you couldn't be in a monk stance and DD stance at the same time work? (see below for paladin)

Perhaps like this:
Tier 1, BAB 6, character level 8
Tier 2, BAB 11, character level 14 (so an arcane needs to splash 2 of a full BAB class to qualify).
Tier 3, BAB 16, character level 20 (so to get tier 3 on a monk/divine you need minimum of 2 fighter/paly etc).

An otherwise carbon copy of fighter stalwart defender would be close to fine with fighter specific enhancements replaced with dwarf specific enhancements (some useless ones of course). Some of the unique things that DD offers according to SRD should definitely be included to provide an incentive to create a pure fighter DD.
I don't like this idea of having to multiclass just to use a racial prestige. What about not being able to use metamagics (except empower healing) while in the stance, instead of these BAB bonuses?
Bring on the DD, I want my dwarven defender monk!

Another question should be, can a dwarven paladin choose DD and DoS? What about DD and KotC? A DD would be able to take any paladin pre, but you could only be in DOS stance or DD stance at any given time, not both.

Comments in violet.

Just a general point, what is the reason behind not being able to take another prestige class in the class your racial prestige came from? I understand not being able to take the same one, but it would be nice to make, say, a DWS AA elf.