Master Assassin: an int based build

[Mellkor]

Halflings get a racial +1 to saves and 3 of their 5 cores each add +1 to all saves. I don't know how many of the cores you're taking, but that might be part of it.



What enhancements are you taking on the dex based halfling? In Hassan's Assassin in my sig, I've got a human dex based build and halfling dex based build posted, both of which come out ahead of my old int build in both offense and defense. I end up with 15-20 more dodge, a higher assassinate DC, better trash dps through no mercy and balanced attacks, haste boost instead of melee power boost, higher PRR and saves, and slightly lower boss dps due to a lower benefit from know the angles (or in the case of the halfling version, the halfling guile line). That, to me, seems like significant gains for a very small cost.

I am 41 in assassin and 31 or so into acrobat with 8 points or so into racial.

Certainly dex based is "better", by the numbers, certainly so. But its not the overwhelming difference I expected after seeing the changes, at least when comparing the two in actual game play. I play both equally well in EE quests. DPS is high on both builds now with the changes, the difference really isnt significant, IMO. I can hardly tell the difference in the time it takes to beat down trash between the two. I self heal a little less on the dex build. and thats about it. Assassinate DC ends up at 80 on both builds, so no real advantage there. I havent figured out yet, which build has the higher assassinate DC potential, but I think they will end up very close.

As for defense, I end up with 47 dodge on my halfling (2 or so off max for a pure rogue) and 42 on the int build (4 below max for that build). AC is about 10 better on the dex rogue. Saves are 5 better or so on the DEX build.

The only advantage an int based build has over dex is better INT skills, but thats a moot point really, as both hit no fail numbers. I guess you can say the int rogue doesn't have to gear up for int skills. LOL. And has more (useless) skills maxed.

A note on No Mercy: it requires a helpless state which does not happen enough for me to justify spending points in it, so I dumped it.

[CThruTheEgo]

I havent figured out yet, which build has the higher assassinate DC potential, but I think they will end up very close.

Definitely dex based. I had to go all in on int to reach a 74 DC. As dex based, there are several points of dex in both enhancements and EDs that I'm not bothering to take and still end up with a higher DC than when I was int based. I'll be curious to see what the unreasonable max DC is, if you figure that out for dex based.

The only advantage an int based build has over dex is better INT skills, but thats a moot point really, as both hit no fail numbers. I guess you can say the int rogue doesn't have to gear up for int skills. LOL. And has more (useless) skills maxed.

That's the point we've been making since dex to assassinate was first suggested by Sev. There is essentially no advanatge that int based has over dex, and so no reason to actually choose it. It might be that dex leads int only by small amounts, but it's small amounts in every area that matters and int really has nothing going for it.

A note on No Mercy: it requires a helpless state which does not happen enough for me to justify spending points in it, so I dumped it.

Both balanced attacks and the Epic Cloak of Ice induce helplessness, which is good not only for no mercy, but also for automatic sneak attacks, mobs that don't hit back, +50% damage, and another +30% if you also twist sense weakness.

[slarden]

Assassinate DC ends up at 80 on both builds, so no real advantage there. I haven't figured out yet, which build has the higher assassinate DC potential, but I think they will end up very close.

Hi, this is a great thread/build with alot of useful info in it!

The major differences in dex/int potential I see are:

+ 4 insightful dex on Necklace of Mystic Eidolons vs +3 insightful int item
+ 5 Dex in Thief/Acrobat vs. +4 in Harper Tree
+ 2 from dex yugo pots with no disadvantage compared to +2 int yugo pots that give -50% fortification either requiring a twist (brace for impact) or gear to overcome
+4 burst dex dps for 65 seconds with tenser's scroll which would be used sparingly in difficult content before a big fight, but I make no claims to use tenser's all the time.

Both builds can reach mid 80s assassinate with severe gimping and maxed out past lifes and gear (not counting tensers). With both int and dex I found myself dropping my main stat selections from the enhancement trees for other goodies since my assassinate seemed good enough without having to take more int/dex.

Overall I am liking dex much better. I think it might be possible to get slightly higher red-named burst dps with an int build, but it's necessary to make some very bad trade-offs to do so. Non-red-name DPS potential is much higher with dex and build diversity is much greater with dex (35 or so AP variation with dex builds vs. 12 or so AP variation with int builds).

As Cthru mentioned, no mercy is really great with balanced attacks and epic cloak of ice, although I found myself dropping it for MP Damage boost 30 action boost because the # of hits required to take down enemies is low enough that they are usually dead before the proc is done. It basically means I am getting 50% damage boost instead of 80% (and a stacking 30% on top of that with sense weakness).

Kill count is an important dps measure for many people and balanced attacks + epic cloak of ice + no mercy + sense weakness + mortal fear weapon will give you alot of kills. With my old int build I couldn't fit in haste boost or mp damage boost and now I can which increases my dps quite a bit. Although if I went back to int I would drop stat bonus to take both action boosts now that assassinate potential is higher.

It's definitely good times for assassins willing to respec.

[Winter_storm]

Hmmm Human. Last time I checked the build it was Drow for the 20 int. Reason I'm asking is that not a big Human fan in DDO and wondering whats the 2nd best race option?...

[CThruTheEgo]

Hmmm Human. Last time I checked the build it was Drow for the 20 int. Reason I'm asking is that not a big Human fan in DDO and wondering whats the 2nd best race option?...

Now that we have dex to assassinate, human is best and halfling is second. See Hassan's Assassin in my sig for a halfling version (linked at the beginning of the first post). slarden also has a dragonmarked halfling version in the rogue forums.

[Winter_storm]

Yea but like the int thing for traps ... Was reading the dex stuff but isn't there a feat finess you need to take for it?

[CThruTheEgo]

Yea but like the int thing for traps ... Was reading the dex stuff but isn't there a feat finess you need to take for it?

Weapon finesse is not necessary at endgame. Nothing even comes close to Thunder-Forged and, once you can equip it, there is very little reason to swap weapons again, including DR. For leveling, weapon finesse can be useful, but I would swap it out later. Also, int builds take insightful reflexes so it's not like dex requires more feats. In fact, because neither insightful reflexes nor weapon finesse are required on a dex build, dex actually has more flexibility with feats.

[Winter_storm]

True... agree... But it would be less int for traps. sniff

[CThruTheEgo]

True... agree... But it would be less int for traps. sniff

It's not needed. Dex based can still reach no fail with ease. Int doesn't really have any significant advantages over dex based.

Int is still viable, but it is definitely suboptimal.

[VinoeWhines]

It's not needed. Dex based can still reach no fail with ease. Int doesn't really have any significant advantages over dex based.

Int is still viable, but it is definitely suboptimal.

I'm not sure if he's referring to trap making, but I believe you need a DD of 97 or higher to set traps and be viable in EE, but then again some rogues don't focus on placing traps, but to those that do, I think in EE it might hurt their DC.

Unless someone can post their DD on a DEX based rogue that can reach those numbers of 97+DD with gear and such?(not including +(x)tools since they don't apply to trap placement.)

[CThruTheEgo]

I'm not sure if he's referring to trap making

I hadn't considered that since I don't believe mellkor ever took the improved traps enhancement, but I could be wrong about that. I would expect such discussion in nokowi's thread, but not here.

I believe you need a DD of 97 or higher to set traps and be viable in EE, but then again some rogues don't focus on placing traps, but to those that do, I think in EE it might hurt their DC.

If I remember correctly, nokowi's testing showed a trap DC of about 80 as essentially no fail in EE. He showed that an int based assassin did not need full ranks in improved traps because of this. A dex based assassin, on the other hand, would need full ranks.

Unless someone can post their DD on a DEX based rogue that can reach those numbers of 97+DD with gear and such?(not including +(x)tools since they don't apply to trap placement.)

If I am correct about nokowi's results, see Hassan's Assassin in my sig for a dex based assassin which reaches an 87 disable device before the bonus from tools is added.

The bigger problem imo, however, is not being able to reach an effective DC for placing EE traps as dex based, but in the AP cost of the improved traps enhancement. There is basically nothing in the first tier of mechanic that is needed, desired, or even useful for a dex based assassin (although I would argue the same for int based as well). So essentially, you have to pay 8 AP for improved traps and effectively get nothing else from those 8 AP. This might be worth it if you plan to do a lot of soloing on your assassin, but not in any other case imo. But, it is also true that dex based has greater freedom with their AP than int based does, so they should have an easier time finding those 8 AP to spend.

[Mellkor]

Well, I don't think I will be updating this build any longer. Dex based is clearly the better way to go as of U26. Check out CThruTheEgo's excellent thread. It is more or less what I am running these days with minor differences in gear. I still focus on assassin DC more than he does and run an 81 DC these days. Other than that very minor differences over what I do anyway.

Its time to pass the torch.

If things change that give Int based assassins a clear edge over Dex based, I'll resurrect this thread. Its still interesting to read this thread in its entirety to chronicle the changes over the years.

-JR

[Saekee]

Well, I don't think I will be updating this build any longer. Dex based is clearly the better way to go as of U26. Check out CThruTheEgo's excellent thread. It is more or less what I am running these days with minor differences in gear. I still focus on assassin DC more than he does and run an 81 DC these days. Other than that very minor differences over what I do anyway.

Its time to pass the torch.

If things change that give Int based assassins a clear edge over Dex based, I'll resurrect this thread. Its still interesting to read this thread in its entirety to chronicle the changes over the years.

-JR

The key to an INT rogue is taking tier 5 Harper with the assassin capstone and the ToEE set kukri in the offhand. The expiring melee power of MtF would be replaced with a permanent boost of 24 (ToEE) and 15 (Harper) with Improved deception on any weapon (which leaves TF and armor piercing on the mainhand). You wouldn't assassinate and you would lose a crit multpilier but you gain mp which massively enhances sneak damage making it functional, especially in long battles--boss fights etc.
The +10 damage lost from the Mark would be offset by KtA of +10 damage.

[unbongwah]

It seems to me like you'd be better off sticking with T5 Assassin and spending 23 APs in Harper for +9 MP; which still leaves 16 APs for other PrEs. An extra +6 MP and perma-Imp Deception doesn't seem worth giving up +1 crit multiplier, Assassinate, and other T5 goodies. You can still take KtA regardless of whether you went DEX- or INT-based; plenty of the DEX builds start INT 16-ish which, thanks to ridiculous stat inflation, can still translate into a major dmg bonus. The only downside is you don't have enough APs leftover for Kip Up nor T4 Acrobat.

[Saekee]

It seems to me like you'd be better off sticking with T5 Assassin and spending 23 APs in Harper for +9 MP; which still leaves 16 APs for other PrEs. An extra +6 MP and perma-Imp Deception doesn't seem worth giving up +1 crit multiplier, Assassinate, and other T5 goodies. You can still take KtA regardless of whether you went DEX- or INT-based; plenty of the DEX builds start INT 16-ish which, thanks to ridiculous stat inflation, can still translate into a major dmg bonus. The only downside is you don't have enough APs leftover for Kip Up nor T4 Acrobat.

You are counting Measure the Foe's melee power boost. That expires after 10 seconds. Poof! If one wishes to keep it up in an extended fight, you need to drop back down into sneak. So figure you lose about 1/3 of your attacks doing this popup and down routine. Sure, trash mobs go down quick enough but it is the big boss bag of HP that concerns me with my proposal. It is a big sacrifice but that is why no one has proposed it.

The Harper assassin gets to use the ToEE set and still enjoy improved deception and TF armor piercing, resulting in a continuous high melee power. That is the key difference right there. There are lots of tradeoffs of course, and I personally prefer the tier 5, but this is what would make the INT assassin superior.

[Mellkor]

So with U29 and the new gear, I am at a 91 standing assassinate DC!!!!!

That DC is pretty much a no fail on all or most assassinatable LH content.

LE is another story....I would guess around 100 DC would be required no fail DC on LE. I am not sure if I can even hit that DC, even temporarily.

LE is pretty much you either get missed or you are dead in one hit. LOL. Not fun at all!

(Yes, still DEX based...)

[Saekee]

So with U29 and the new gear, I am at a 91 standing assassinate DC!!!!!

That DC is pretty much a no fail on all or most assassinatable LH content.

LE is another story....I would guess around 100 DC would be required no fail DC on LE. I am not sure if I can even hit that DC, even temporarily.

LE is pretty much you either get missed or you are dead in one hit. LOL. Not fun at all!

(Yes, still DEX based...)

Dex and Int will be able to get the same DC now, I assume, since LGS and random loot enable the stats on weapons and some gear slots.
The difference is 9 mp more in Harper with a very high KtA vs the defensive benefits of acrobat, although I am probably missing something. (plus Tensors is nice for Dex builds vs Spooky INT).
I plan to max out my DC and weave in the fade in Legendary content in which assassinate works.

[Mellkor]

Well after getting a bit better gear, I am at 95 standing DC and still DEX based. It would be difficult to do better, I would have to make major sacrifices to do it.

95 DC does OK in LE shroud. I still feel 100 would be the no fail number or close to it.

Contemplating going back to INT based, but I am not convinced yet....

I think I can hit a standing 100 with an INT based assassin with some small (acceptable) sacrifices.

I will play around with it one of these days.

[VinoeWhines]

Well after getting a bit better gear, I am at 95 standing DC and still DEX based. It would be difficult to do better, I would have to make major sacrifices to do it.

95 DC does OK in LE shroud. I still feel 100 would be the no fail number or close to it.

Contemplating going back to INT based, but I am not convinced yet....

I think I can hit a standing 100 with an INT based assassin with some small (acceptable) sacrifices.

I will play around with it one of these days.

If you do go back to INT base and hit your numbers, please offer your point of view in gear required to hit those numbers, That Epic Feat Dire Charge I'm sure would be handy in freezing the trash along with Daunting Roar.

[Mellkor]

I have not played this character in over a year in favor of high DC wizzy, vangard pally, and a mechanic great xbow build.

Is anyone playing this build or a variant successfully in reaper content these days?

My experience in reaper to date suggests it wouldn't do too well....I think I would end up breaking out of combat too much to heal up, or get one shot-ed too often to be fun. Also aggro mechanics still do not seem to favor stealthy types....