Master Assassin: an int based build

[Mellkor]

I have been away from DDO for a long time, I come back to epic destinies, epic elite quests, twists of fate and the like.

It is somewhat overwhelming, so I think I might just start again, I only have a standard 20 Barb and want to play a rogue, because stealth classes have always been a favorite of mine.

Is this build still up to date, I saw the last edit on the post was fairly recently, and the later comments seem to be more about gear than the build choices.

I really like the idea of a rogue focused around massive one shot hits, going back into normal combat. Vanishing to go deliver another one shot. I also love being the trap monkey and all the other rogue perks.

However, this rogue will have no hand-me-down gear, only a 32 point build, no past life feats, unless I want to TR my barb into a rogue, but I don't know about that.

What I am asking is, is this build viable for a re-starter like me? Or are there other less farmed up builds I could look at first, and maybe TR in to this one later?

I had great fun leveling this up as a 2nd lifer following this build. My first life changed a lot as I leveled up refining this build so I really cant comment on a first lifer. I don't think it would be too much different from my second life experience tho.

[Yendor_the_pokermage]

i didnt follow this build exactly but i did make a pure Int Drow rogue.

i have a 60 assasinate. and i love playn him. my Consume works awesome, shadow manipulation is a awesome tool to make a single mob hold aggro while i clear the trash.

havn a 54Int makes these work wonders.

thou you have to play smart cause youll be a bit squishy and thats with a cpl xtra Barb lives for more HP's.

but youll be a pure trash killer. only quest i can think of that i was ever outkilled by a melee was in eeBelly when the toon with EiN smashed the blademaster wave and got ahead of me for good.

really looking forward to epic GH to test out my assasinate on mobs with better saves and of course the swim in crucible. with insightful reflexes and PL's i have a self buffed 70reflex without my uncanny dodge clickie.

[Inouk]

Looks like a fun build. I have a friend wanting to try a rogue for the first time, so I'll point him here.

A couple of questions:

The only real concern I've seen raised is that you give up some DPS; how is your boss DPS on this guy? And, related, how well does he solo at epic levels (EH, EE)?

[bhgiant]

Looks like a fun build. I have a friend wanting to try a rogue for the first time, so I'll point him here.

A couple of questions:

The only real concern I've seen raised is that you give up some DPS; how is your boss DPS on this guy? And, related, how well does he solo at epic levels (EH, EE)?

I run a variant of this build. My boss dps is fine. You will never get 3k crits but you will do consistent high dps as long as you get SA. Equip Improved deception in weapons and on an item slot and the boss will rarely ever attack you or anyone as it's too busy responding to the "bluff" effect.

Soloing is fine as well, even on hard. I've even done a few select Elite runs solo. Be warned though, it is not "easy" soloing where you blow through everything like a comet and it only takes 5 minutes. It requires more time and tactics and skill to play right but for people like me (and most others in this thread I assume) it's a lot more fun. Make full use of your abilities, pets, scrolled spells, skills like bluff and you'll have the time of your life.

[Mellkor]

Looks like DC 65 is the sweetspot for reliable EE assassinates in Gianthold TOR. DC 60 is only around 70% successful vs assassinateable mobs based on emperical observations.

[Tid12]

Looks like DC 65 is the sweetspot for reliable EE assassinates in Gianthold TOR. DC 60 is only around 70% successful vs assassinateable mobs based on imperical observations.

Probably more. I've heard from many friends 56 DC needs to Energy drain twice or three times before landing a FoD in eGH.

[Soulfurnace]

65 DC is the reliable amount in Tor?
Is that to say this is going to lose a good chunk of effectiveness at EE level (or at least at Tor)?
I'm currently sitting at level 20, just planning out my short term gear, and enjoying the ability to assassinate on the move, and not bother wondering if the first is dead - I know it is
However, if this tends to taper off at EE levels, I might have to plan for my TR frenzy before I expected...

[Mellkor]

I experimented with a 67 assassinate DC by going all out min-max, swapped some gear, and using abashai + store pot + bard buff. 67 DC work just about everytime in EE ToR and other EE gianthold quests. This DC is not really practical however, and it gimps you noticably in other ways . I don't really reccomend it. If the enhancement pass is as it was on Llamma a while back, it will be easy to hit a 65 DC or so whilst not gimping you in other areas. 65 DC seemed to work almost as well, so I would still say 65 is the new bar to reach for to have a near never fail assassinate DC in EE gianthold.

[voodoogroves]

I experimented with a 67 assassinate DC by going all out min-max, swapped some gear, and using abashai + store pot + bard buff. 67 DC work just about everytime in EE ToR and other EE gianthold quests. This DC is not really practical however, and it gimps you noticably in other ways . I don't really reccomend it. If the enhancement pass is as it was on Llamma a while back, it will be easy to hit a 65 DC or so whilst not gimping you in other areas. 65 DC seemed to work almost as well, so I would still say 65 is the new bar to reach for to have a near never fail assassinate DC in EE gianthold.

Don't say that. That means I need to TR so I can move some points around, and I really don't want to have to do that ;-)

[Mellkor]

Don't say that. That means I need to TR so I can move some points around, and I really don't want to have to do that ;-)

Well, it is what it is, unfortunately. I do think they set the DC's a bit too high in EE gianthold as it is currently near impossible to maintain the DC's needed to be near 100% reliable, IMO. Maybe that will change, who knows.

[bhgiant]

Well, it is what it is, unfortunately. I do think they set the DC's a bit too high in EE gianthold as it is currently near impossible to maintain the DC's needed to be near 100% reliable, IMO. Maybe that will change, who knows.

I agree. I'm not fully geared yet so I sit at a 53 DC and in the FR I can assassinate everything on EN or EH without fail and ~60% in EE on melee mobs. In GH, even on EN I'm only getting ~50% on melee toons.

I guess it makes sense though... I mean, they ARE giants.

[tylerdurden77]

I LR-ed my STR-based rogue into this build two months ago and I don't think I'll ever go back. My rogue is back to being my favorite toon to play. Excellent build.

Well, it is what it is, unfortunately. I do think they set the DC's a bit too high in EE gianthold as it is currently near impossible to maintain the DC's needed to be near 100% reliable, IMO. Maybe that will change, who knows.

I have to disagree about this point though. Is it reasonable to expect a 100% assassinate chance in EE quests? This build does so well in EEs and has pretty great survivability that I think we might be expecting too much.

My rogue has a standing, non-buffed 54 or 56 assassinate DC (depending on what ED I'm in) and he does fine in EE quests. I would estimate my assassinate rate in pre-update17 EEs is about a 75% chance which I'm completely fine with. I haven't taken him into EE Gianthold yet but in EH Gianthold it's near 100%. Casters usually always go down which is always my first target. For those trash that don't go down they get hamstrung, sundered, and then level-drained until they fall.

[hi_sa1nt]

I'm just glad there isn't any EE gear from the Blue Dragon required for your new set up. Did fairly well with the Black and White dragons, but man, that blue is something else.

Still gotta try and get that Con EE Black Helm version.

I ltr'd to a strength build stunning blow/cleave rogue, which is fine. Dps is amazing, but my assassinate sucks as well as most of my rogue skills. I'll be doing 3 paly lives for 15% heal amp then back into this build.

[Mellkor]

I tr'd this guy a third time with a bunch of guildies who wanted to see how fast we could hit 20 again, we went from 1-21 in about 14 hours

Anyway some observations that may be helpful regarding Assassinate DC's in EE Gianthold and TOR. (Empirical observations in EE ToR mostly). I did this because I was curious and because people sometimes say 1 dc doesnt matter when you are at around 60 DC. To them I say BS, it matters, all the way to 65 DC or so, for U17 content. For U16 content I still maintain that the 100% line is 60 or 61. Every point of DC matters.

50 assassinate DC almost always failed on most mobs in EE gianthold content.

55 DC worked OK (maybe 60%) on some mobs (low fort save giants such as fire giant casters) and almost never on high fort giants such as berserkers). This is unacceptable for me, tho, this DC is hardly reliable.

60 DC works near 100% vs low fort mobs and around 60% vs high fort mobs.

67 DC works near 100% vs all assassinate-able mobs in U17 EE content.

For all other content below EE, 55 DC seemed to be OK. High fort mobs still occasionally saved vs a successful attempt, but overall 55 is a good number for EH and lower GH content.

Problem is 61/62 DC is fairly easy to maintain. 63+ DC is currently not practical to maintain as it requires too many sacrifices in other areas of the build and use of things that are not practical such as abashai cookies, yugo pots, house D pots, bard buffs, etc.

There is light at the end of the tunnel, tho. The upcoming enhancement pass that was on Llama a while back had assassin enhancements that added to assassinate DC as well as enhancements for more INT. If those aspects of the enhancement pass are implemented as they were on Llama, then hitting a 65 DC should be easily incorporated into this build without sacrificing anything.

[Mellkor]

Updated the OP with a lev 25 gear section. It is slightly different than post #277.

Also some changes to twists:

I now twist in Brace for Impact and Impregnable Mind (kept unearthly reactions). This bumps me to 165% fortitude and brings my (self buffed) will saves to 42 with the lev 25 gear set, AND I no longer fail will saves on a 1. This along with slippery mind means I do not fail will saves much in EE U17 content. I can often walk right thru those annoying disco balls, . The loss to dodge is made up for with the mobility feat on the surefooted boots and the loss to int is, unfortunately, made up for with store int pots :/.

[karl_k0ch]

50 assassinate DC almost always failed on most mobs in EE gianthold content.

55 DC worked OK (maybe 60%) on some mobs (low fort save giants such as fire giant casters) and almost never on high fort giants such as berserkers). This is unacceptable for me, tho, this DC is hardly reliable.

60 DC works near 100% vs low fort mobs and around 60% vs high fort mobs.

67 DC works near 100% vs all assassinate-able mobs in U17 EE content.

So to summarize your numbers:

• A DC increase of +10 (from 50 to 60) is an improvement from "almost always fails" to "near 100%" on low-fort mobs, where it only rises the chance by +50%.
• A DC increase of +5 (from 55 to 60) is an improvement from "almost never" to "around 60%" on high-fort mobs, where it only rises this chance by +35%.
• A DC increase of +12 (from 55 to 67) is an improvement from "almost never" to "near 100%", where it raises the chance by +60%.

Do you think that 25% is almost never, and that 80% is almost always, or are the numbers skewed in a different way?

[Mellkor]

So to summarize your numbers:

• A DC increase of +10 (from 50 to 60) is an improvement from "almost always fails" to "near 100%" on low-fort mobs, where it only rises the chance by +50%.
• A DC increase of +5 (from 55 to 60) is an improvement from "almost never" to "around 60%" on high-fort mobs, where it only rises this chance by +35%.
• A DC increase of +12 (from 55 to 67) is an improvement from "almost never" to "near 100%", where it raises the chance by +60%.

Do you think that 25% is almost never, and that 80% is almost always, or are the numbers skewed in a different way?

I would say thats about right, since these are only guesstimates based on empirical observations. I am also not entirely sure the assassinate DC is a linear progression, because it certainly seems like success rate goes up by big jumps with only a point or 2 rise in DC vs certain mobs. But I will leave that to you number crunchers to research and figure out.

[karl_k0ch]

DC is a linear progression

This is how it works in DDO.
DC = a number which needs to be rolled on a d20 to succeed. +1 DC means that you have one fewer die side available to your favor, ie the chance to succeed is raised by 5%.
Succeed means here: The mob makes his save against assassinate.


Figuring out that 1/20 = 5% is hardly number crunching.

[Mellkor]

This is how it works in DDO.
DC = a number which needs to be rolled on a d20 to succeed. +1 DC means that you have one fewer die side available to your favor, ie the chance to succeed is raised by 5%.
Succeed means here: The mob makes his save against assassinate.


Figuring out that 1/20 = 5% is hardly number crunching.

DDO has never used the D20 system, truly.

[karl_k0ch]

DDO has never used the D20 system, truly.

Oh, that's news to me. What do you mean with "truly"?
I thought that the DCs of Spells, the Saves against traps, and (now only to an extend) the combat system is based on rolling a d20 and seeing if you roll higher than a certain number.

The ddowiki and the ingame compendium give this impression, at least. In which way are they wrong?