Master Assassin: an int based build

[Therigar]

Does anyone have a good idea on what DC we should be shooting for on EE?

I asked a similar question:

As the title says, what does the assassinate DC have to be in order to work reliably on: a) heroic elite, b) epic normal/hard and c) epic elite?

As a follow-on question, is assassinate considered a tactical feat? I know it isn't a feat per se. But, does the game treat it as one and does fighter past life increase the DC as it does for other tactical feats?

Here was Mellkor's answer in that thread:

I have finally had some time to work on my assassin rogue.

In epic elite quests, I noticed a real difference in EE quests after DC 55. I am currently at DC 59. I will be able to get to 61/62 for a short time (not practical). When I finish out my destiny I will be at 60 DC with just ship buffs and store pot. (yugo pots are impractical, IMO as well as house D pots, but could hit 63 DC with those).

I noticed that DC 59 is a lot better in EE quests than DC 55. dunno why such a small difference makes such an impact, nor can I quantify it, but it is noticeable.

I would guess that dc 55 I was around 40% successful on assasinatable mobs, while it is more like 60% at DC 59 in EE quests.

In all other quests DC 55 is almost always successful.

I have not updated my build in my sig yet, but I will after I cap him in a few weeks or so.

-JR

[Nodoze]

Can anyone recommend stats/feats/enhancements for a Halfling 32 point version variant of this build?

I saw a 2nd life option posted earlier but there was no feedback on whether the choices were good.

[Nahual]

Can anyone recommend stats/feats/enhancements for a Halfling 32 point version variant of this build?

I saw a 2nd life option posted earlier but there was no feedback on whether the choices were good.

I would go the same as this build just any extra go in str.

For AP just get halfling guile for more sneak damage.

Rest is basically the same.

[Mellkor]

Edited OP with U15 changes.

Some equipment changes and added in destinies and its effects.

I have had a chance to do a lot of playing around on EE quests with this guy the last month or so. I will say that there is a huge difference in assassinate DC 50 vs DC 60 in EE quests. I would GUESS that I went from 20% successful (50DC) to around 75% successful (60 DC) in EE quests on assasinateble mobs. Some like the drow weapon masters and dire bears on EE difficulty always fail despite getting a save roll. But on just about anything else it works most times.

Another big change was more emphasis on defense. 25% dodge + 25% incorporeal from shadow dancer destiny +20/50% concealment is THE way to go! Each of these gets a seperate check for each incomming blow, as a result you don't get hit much.

[karl_k0ch]

I would GUESS that I went from 20% successful (50DC) to around 75% successful (60 DC) in EE quests on assasinateble mobs.

This is not how a d20 system works.
Either it is a bump from around 20% to around 70%, or from around 25% to around 75%.

[Mellkor]

This is not how a d20 system works.
Either it is a bump from around 20% to around 70%, or from around 25% to around 75%.

I will let you math geniusses figure that out.

as for my guess, since it is just a guess and an estimate AND we are not on a d20 system anymore. It works :P

[karl_k0ch]

I will let you math geniusses figure that out.

as for my guess, since it is just a guess and an estimate AND we are not on a d20 system anymore. It works :P

So since you consider yourself not to be a math genius, you have a free pass for spreading misleading information?

I'm aware that this is just a guess; I just tried to put the numbers into a sensible perspective.

DCs are still based on a d20, just the AC system is using a different formula now. For DCs, an increase of +10 is always an increase of at most +50% success chance (I'm writing "at most" since the DC could be high enough to have always a success anyway.)

[Vengenance]

Edited OP with U15 changes.

Some equipment changes and added in destinies and its effects.

I have had a chance to do a lot of playing around on EE quests with this guy the last month or so. I will say that there is a huge difference in assassinate DC 50 vs DC 60 in EE quests. I would GUESS that I went from 20% successful (50DC) to around 75% successful (60 DC) in EE quests on assasinateble mobs. Some like the drow weapon masters and dire bears on EE difficulty always fail despite getting a save roll. But on just about anything else it works most times.

Another big change was more emphasis on defense. 25% dodge + 25% incorporeal from shadow dancer destiny +20/50% concealment is THE way to go! Each of these gets a seperate check for each incomming blow, as a result you don't get hit much.

I think your build may have just "jumped the shark" in terms of viability. You've seemed to have done with Intelligence what Rogan has done with Strenth although even has hasn't gone to the same extremes. To obtain a 60 DC you've used two precious Epic Feats and 4 enhancement points and a twist for 3 DC all for one aspect of an Assassin. A mid 50 DCs will rock on E-Hard and still be usefull in EE and you'll be able to use your feats and twists for other things (Improved Sneak Attack, Improved Toughness, etc). I really liked your original build because while it maxxed intelligences it still provided good dps at end game. I think you're giving up to much dps for a no fail assassinate dc.

[jejeba86]

So since you consider yourself not to be a math genius, you have a free pass for spreading misleading information?

I'm aware that this is just a guess; I just tried to put the numbers into a sensible perspective.

DCs are still based on a d20, just the AC system is using a different formula now. For DCs, an increase of +10 is always an increase of at most +50% success chance (I'm writing "at most" since the DC could be high enough to have always a success anyway.)

The guy gets a 5% error in a wild guess based on observation with no tracking, and you consider it "spreading misleading information"?

Please, don't.

[Tid12]

I think your build may have just "jumped the shark" in terms of viability. You've seemed to have done with Intelligence what Rogan has done with Strenth although even has hasn't gone to the same extremes. To obtain a 60 DC you've used two precious Epic Feats and 4 enhancement points and a twist for 3 DC all for one aspect of an Assassin. A mid 50 DCs will rock on E-Hard and still be usefull in EE and you'll be able to use your feats and twists for other things (Improved Sneak Attack, Improved Toughness, etc). I really liked your original build because while it maxxed intelligences it still provided good dps at end game. I think you're giving up to much dps for a no fail assassinate dc.

I gotta agree here. You went too far imho.

2x Great Int ? Lose 1 and get Improved Sneak attack.
Twisted 1x Int ? Lose it and twist Sense Weakness. Much more DPS.
Dodge ? Lose it for Precision for free 25% Fort bypass.

Only these changes will give you MUCH MORE dps while losing 1 Assasinate DC and 3% dodge.

[Mellkor]

If you dont do EE quests much, I would agree, however in EE quests this build works best, IMO. The (relatively) small increase in DPS does not trump the higher assasinate DC in EE quests where I have noticed a big difference with each point over 55. 55 DC is just fine for Epic Hard and lower, but I build to be the best assasin!

That said, In any event, one can customize this build as you see fit and have fun! This is just a suggested guideline. This build as posted still cranks out the DPS while having a high assasinate DC and able to do all the trap stuff without fail. Only now I have added a lot of defense, which I feel is required in EE quests, other than that I have kept to my original concept as much as possible. I have not finished playing with all the destines yet, so I may change my mind (I have even tried some of the ones you mention). For now I really like the set up I have posted.

As for losing 3% dodge.... NO WAY! 25% or the ability to get to 25% with shadow dancer is just to valuable to give up. Without the dodge feat and twists I can not get to the 25% cap. It is simply way to valuable to me to compromise on that one. 25% dodge + 25% incorp + 20/50% concealment is to awsome to give up as far as I am concerned.

-JR

[Mellkor]

So since you consider yourself not to be a math genius, you have a free pass for spreading misleading information?

I'm aware that this is just a guess; I just tried to put the numbers into a sensible perspective.

DCs are still based on a d20, just the AC system is using a different formula now. For DCs, an increase of +10 is always an increase of at most +50% success chance (I'm writing "at most" since the DC could be high enough to have always a success anyway.)

And even IF we were talking D20 "system", in my original guess, I mentioned 20% and 75%.

These correspond to a roll of a 4 and 15, respectively, on a D20. So technically it fits into a "D20 system".

[Tid12]

If you dont do EE quests much, I would agree, however in EE quests this build works best, IMO. The (relatively) small increase in DPS does not trump the higher assasinate DC in EE quests where I have noticed a big difference with each point over 55. 55 DC is just fine for Epic Hard and lower, but I build to be the best assasin!

That said, In any event, one can customize this build as you see fit and have fun! This is just a suggested guideline. This build as posted still cranks out the DPS while having a high assasinate DC and able to do all the trap stuff without fail. Only now I have added a lot of defense, which I feel is required in EE quests, other than that I have kept to my original concept as much as possible. I have not finished playing with all the destines yet, so I may change my mind (I have even tried some of the ones you mention). For now I really like the set up I have posted.

As for losing 3% dodge.... NO WAY! 25% or the ability to get to 25% with shadow dancer is just to valuable to give up. Without the dodge feat and twists I can not get to the 25% cap. It is simply way to valuable to me to compromise on that one. 25% dodge + 25% incorp + 20/50% concealment is to awsome to give up as far as I am concerned.

-JR

I play only EE and I have an assassin rogue with 55 DC, it fails rarely if ever. It's totally false that you need more than 55 to make it work for EE so please, don't spread missinformation around. Also, you'd lose only 1 DC with the setup that I suggested, making you drop to 59, more than enough even for EE.

And the DPS increase is not small at all. 3d6 is 12 avg damage and Sense weakness is 1d8 + 1d12 for mobs below 75% health = 4 + 6 = 10 avg damage for a total of 22. If the mob is below 50% HP, it's another d20 = 32 avg damage more. I wouldn't say 32 avg dmg is "(relatively) small"

The U15 quets is a pain without DPS since you can't assassinate anything. Just as an example.

Anyway, mines are only suggestion. The build is yours, have fun with it.

[karl_k0ch]

And even IF we were talking D20 "system", in my original guess, I mentioned 20% and 75%.

These correspond to a roll of a 4 and 15, respectively, on a D20. So technically it fits into a "D20 system".

Technically, yes. But the actual numbers don't fit, and this is all my post was about. The numbers you are mentioning here concerns rolling against a static DC which is equal to to the corresponding save (e.g. Fortitude save). This was not the case in your example, as you were referring two different DCs, not two different rolls of a mob against your assassinate DC of, say, 55.

[Mellkor]

I play only EE and I have an assassin rogue with 55 DC, it fails rarely if ever. It's totally false that you need more than 55 to make it work for EE so please, don't spread missinformation around. Also, you'd lose only 1 DC with the setup that I suggested, making you drop to 59, more than enough even for EE.

And the DPS increase is not small at all. 3d6 is 12 avg damage and Sense weakness is 1d8 + 1d12 for mobs below 75% health = 4 + 6 = 10 avg damage for a total of 22. If the mob is below 50% HP, it's another d20 = 32 avg damage more. I wouldn't say 32 avg dmg is "(relatively) small"

The U15 quets is a pain without DPS since you can't assassinate anything. Just as an example.

Anyway, mines are only suggestion. The build is yours, have fun with it.

It is a small relative increase in DPS when you are already doing 250 or more total damage per hit (assuming sneak attack). As for 55 DC failing hardly ever, That has not been my experience. Are you going after high fort targets or just ignoring them for easy targets such as casters?

I do have fun with it! Thanks.

[hi_sa1nt]

Just a couple of questions:

What's your opinion on the Cloak of Night with the invis guard? What other item would you put the +7 const on?

What past lives do you recommend?

Love your build and I've been following this thread for quite awhile. I do give ya props for grinding for all your gear, it's a pain.

[Therigar]

I think your build may have just "jumped the shark" in terms of viability. You've seemed to have done with Intelligence what Rogan has done with Strenth although even has hasn't gone to the same extremes. To obtain a 60 DC you've used two precious Epic Feats and 4 enhancement points and a twist for 3 DC all for one aspect of an Assassin. A mid 50 DCs will rock on E-Hard and still be usefull in EE and you'll be able to use your feats and twists for other things (Improved Sneak Attack, Improved Toughness, etc). I really liked your original build because while it maxxed intelligences it still provided good dps at end game. I think you're giving up to much dps for a no fail assassinate dc.

If an assassination succeeds so that there is no additional combat, how do you measure its value with respect to DPS?

I think this is an important question, sort of in the category of insta-kill spells. The real measure of value is in how fast the mobs die. DPS is one measure of that. But, I'll gladly give up 20 points of DPS if the speed at which mobs are dying decreases because of the effectiveness of the assassinations.

It is not unusual to kill two mobs at a time, instantly, with a successful assassination. Having 20 or even 50 points more DPS would not enable my rogue to kill the mobs any faster. To the contrary, almost by definition, if I have to rely on DPS then I must be killing the mobs slower.

Second point, 50 is not sufficient for epic hard. I have a 50 DC with my rogue and there are still ordinary mobs that routinely save. I have even had low fort mobs save at 50. To suggest that 50 is good for epic hard or that mid 50s will rock is somewhat misleading. What mid 50s gets you is all of the low fort mobs but it still leaves you needing that DPS against high fort mobs who will still make their save nearly as often than they fail it.

IMO, pushing for a 60 DC is worth every bit of the effort even if it means giving up some amount of DPS. Bottom line is that if the mob is dead (because assassinate succeeded) then you can have a DPS of zero and you still win. Since nobody is suggesting that dramatic of a change it seems that the investment is well worth it.

[Therigar]

STR 14 / 32
DEX 14 / 26
CON 14 / 32
INT 18 / 52 (18 base, +6 level ups, +6 item, +1 exceptional, +3 insight, +4 tome, +2 capstone, +2 ship, +1 Helf dilli enhancement, +1 human versatility, +6 destinies (including twists), +2 epic feats)
WIS 8 / 22
CHA 8 / 22

Alright, my only observation regarding all of this with respect to the allocation of build points:

There is absolutely no reason to have STR on this character. You will be using Epic Midnight Greetings for the +2 assassinate and it works with DEX or STR for both to hit and to damage numbers. So the build points in STR are totally unnecessary.

You are absolutely correct that not getting hit is a key and all of the work on dodge, concealment, etc is right thinking. Higher DEX helps that overall goal, higher STR does not.

Are there +7 INT items? A +7 INT item would let you drop human adaptability and take elven DEX instead. This lets you push DEX to 16 at L1 and 18 by L8. With a +4 tome, +7 item, +1 exceptional and +2 insight it becomes 32. This is equal to your STR number and equally effective for your to hit and to damage numbers. Take the ship buff and you are higher.

It also increases your AC by 3 and your reflex saves by 3 -- which is of minimal use to be sure but still more in keeping with the notion of getting hit less often.

It just seems to me that there is no reason to be investing in STR.

[TDSCBloody]

I agree with Therigar regarding DEX vs. STR.

Similar to Mellkor's build I made my assassin fully INT-focussed
(DC 59 atm - still not perfect, but I absolutely love it in EE!),
but went for DEX for to-hit and damage with 2 MNGs (both slotted with demon's ruin).

I definitely have a higher to-hit/damage bonus and better defense
than if I had to split my points between DEX and STR -
and I don't have to use an abishai set, there is better stuff for an assassin now.

If I situationally need a radiance weapon, I still can use it effectively
with the finesse feat the offhand MNG gives me.

The only weaker spot ofc are the occassional undead or constructs,
but with 22 STR and at least 60% fort bypassing the damage is not too shabby.

[Mellkor]

I still prefer str for those times you want to use non-dex bonus weapons. I use them often enough to justify str over dex as a secondary stat in my gameplay. As for reflex save, I am using my int bonus to reflex saves, so dex does almost nothing for this build except rasise the bonus to some skills such as open lock.

That said dex, as a secondary stat instead of str can be just as effective, if somewhat limited, so have fun with it!