Master Assassin: an int based build

[CThruTheEgo]

This whole discussion made me curious about stacking of Elusive Target feat. I wonder if it's multiplicative or additive. Knowing Turbine though, I'd say multiplicative, making it a rather overhyped feat for a character with various miss chance sources.

I don't see any reason why it would stack differently than other sources. When you account for other sources of miss chance, elusive target does provide less than 5%. It usually ends up adding between 1-3% depending on your other miss chances, but I don't see any other ED feat of value really. There are some other options, but they are just as lackluster imo. So I would simply value another 1-3% miss chance over the other options.

[Mellkor]

Wow! U25 brings the fun back for this build.

Aggro bug(s): Fixed!!
Mobs lose aggro if you run away and hide around a corner....etc. so much fun to play again! solo sneak-n-assassinate play is back!
Fast run speed! can keep up with non sprinting barbs!
Faster sneak speed!!! sneak as fast as normal running!
Double and triple assassinate is back!
80+ assassinate DC is EASILY possible although I am finding 75 is still good most of the time, much easier to have and maintain a high assassinate DC without making major sacrifices.
maintainable 40 dodge in light armour!!
poisons are OKish now also...very nice debuffs!
Assassins trick...use it as often as you can....
Measure the Foe....very nice. Definitely maintain this! You have to drop into sneak for a only a moment every 10 seconds to maintain it. Takes getting used to, but well worth the +5 Assassinate DC, +10 to dodge and dodge cap, +20 to melee power, and +5 to hit this ability brings to the table!

Some nice new changes to the enhancement tree.

Healing amp still sucks though (I sacrificed this for very high assassinate DC).


EDIT: Some folks have told me some of these changes happened before U25. I haven't played much for the last 6 months so I am sure I missed some things. In any event, the U25 changes inspired me to try em out, So I see U25 as a good before-and-after point for rogues.

[Mellkor]

So, just for fun I dumped Harper tree and spent those points into Acrobat just to see what i could get Dodge and Dodge cap up to.

With points spent into Harper I was: 37 or 40 dodge cap depending on armour. (76 assassinate DC)

With points dumped from Harper and spent into Acrobat maxing out all the dodge stuff I was: 47 dodge cap regardless of armour worn. (72 assassinate DC).

The biggest loss was DPS. no int to hit and damage really kills DPS. Seems to be 1/2 to 2/3 of what it normally was when in Harper Tree.


I can see maybe a dex based assassin with a 70ish assassinate DC with maybe 50% dodge might be possible. I'll try it out one of these days and see. Although 75-80 DC seems to be whats needed for a reliable near no fail DC in a lot of EE content these days. It would be interesting to try out defenses at 50 dodge + 50% incorp + 50% displacement.

[unbongwah]

What do you think of, say, 41 APs in Assassin, 24 APs in Acrobat (Kip Up, Fast Movement, Haste Boost, Shadow Dodge, Imp Defensive Roll), 12 APs into Harper (KtA+Strategic Combat), 3 APs into human (Dmg Boost, heal amp)? Gives up some Melee Power and INT for +20% run speed and some defensive buffs from Acrobat.

[Mellkor]

What do you think of, say, 41 APs in Assassin, 24 APs in Acrobat (Kip Up, Fast Movement, Haste Boost, Shadow Dodge, Imp Defensive Roll), 12 APs into Harper (KtA+Strategic Combat), 3 APs into human (Dmg Boost, heal amp)? Gives up some Melee Power and INT for +20% run speed and some defensive buffs from Acrobat.

Not bad. Let me know how it works out!

[unbongwah]

Are you kidding? You're my guinea pig!

[CThruTheEgo]

What do you think of, say, 41 APs in Assassin, 24 APs in Acrobat (Kip Up, Fast Movement, Haste Boost, Shadow Dodge, Imp Defensive Roll), 12 APs into Harper (KtA+Strategic Combat), 3 APs into human (Dmg Boost, heal amp)? Gives up some Melee Power and INT for +20% run speed and some defensive buffs from Acrobat.

If you want all of assassin's tier 5s and the capstone, it's 43 AP.

IMO, there's too many points wasted in acrobat to go for the tier 4s on an int based assassin. There just isn't enough that appeals to them on the way there. Because of that, I don't think the sacrifices are worth the gains. Also, the more damage avoidance you have from other sources (i.e. incorp and concealment), the less value you get from each extra point of dodge. Improved defensive roll would be the real prize imo, but it's a huge sacrifice to get there.

[unbongwah]

I think the first 11-14 APs into Acrobat are worthwhile (presuming the threat reduction stacks w/Shiv): Fast Movement, Sly Flourish, Subtlety, Haste Boost, Tumbler. At that point, though, you need to spend a bunch of APs on filler to get Kip Up + Imp Defensive Roll; in particular, Shadow Dodge is less attractive if you're INT-based and presumably taking Insightful Reflexes so you don't really care about DEX, in which case you're just taking it for the MDB and Dodge bonuses.

[CThruTheEgo]

I think the first 11-14 APs into Acrobat are worthwhile (presuming the threat reduction stacks w/Shiv): Fast Movement, Sly Flourish, Subtlety, Haste Boost, Tumbler. At that point, though, you need to spend a bunch of APs on filler to get Kip Up + Imp Defensive Roll; in particular, Shadow Dodge is less attractive if you're INT-based and presumably taking Insightful Reflexes so you don't really care about DEX, in which case you're just taking it for the MDB and Dodge bonuses.

Threat reduction may be insignificant now for 3 reasons:

1) several other classes just got a boost to their threat
2) assassin dps is still far behind every other melee worth mentioning
3) now that shiv procs a bluff check, we have sneak attack damage on demand

Since U25 went live, the only threat reduction I've had was the first rank of shiv, and I only took that for the bluff proc. So far I have not had any agro problems with either trash or bosses. I'll find out in time if I need more threat reduction or not.

Also, we don't know if the threat reduction from sly flourish stacks with shiv. In fact, shiv doesn't even say it provides threat reduction. And since we have no way of testing what our threat reduction actually is, there is no way to tell what we are actually getting and from where.

So sly flourish and subtlety, I consider wasted AP. Plus the first 2 cores. Haste boost can be gotten from dreadnaught, which seems to be the new default assassin ED if you want to have decent dps (lame, I know, but that's where we're at). The only thing an int based assassin gets from shadow dodge is 3 dodge and 3 MDB, which are both good, but also expensive for 6 AP.

So before tier 4, the only useful enhancements worth spending AP on are fast movement, shadow dodge, and tumbler. That's 20 APs spent to unlock tier 4s, while only 9 of them are spent on anything actually useful, and 6 of those 9 are spent questionably (shadow dodge). That's a huge sacrifice.

[Mellkor]

Well.....


Looks like this build is about to crash and burn

It will still be a great build for many reasons....

BUT...

If the Dex to assassinate DC change goes live, Methinks going DEX based will be the way to go.....

STAY TUNED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Mellkor]

I am thinking, actually, with the new changes, a dex based, staff wielding, assassin might be worth a try...

I really like the new changes, don't get me wrong, (except for DEXto assassinate DC), it will be fun to retool. Its been kind of the same-ol same-ol for quite a while now.

Nice to embrace change every now and again.

[Saekee]

I think the differences will rest in KtA and weapons that can be used--one can wield any weapon with Harper and get Int to hit/damage but the Assassin tree for dex is limited to daggers and kukris (and qstaves). So maybe weapon finesse feat instead of insightful reflexes?

edit: saw Cthru's post. I was not following the acrobat tree--now I get it...

[kendo]

Well.....


Looks like this build is about to crash and burn

It will still be a great build for many reasons....

BUT...

If the Dex to assassinate DC change goes live, Methinks going DEX based will be the way to go.....

STAY TUNED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

searched the Lam notes and other announcements but not seeing anything about the devs reopening the idea of using Dex to assassinate. thought they decided against that.

but then my search abilities are sometimes lacking could you point me to where you saw this? because I really hope they aren't going to allow Dex to assassinate, for all the reasons expressed when they first floated that idea

[CThruTheEgo]

searched the Lam notes and other announcements but not seeing anything about the devs reopening the idea of using Dex to assassinate. thought they decided against that.

but then my search abilities are sometimes lacking could you point me to where you saw this? because I really hope they aren't going to allow Dex to assassinate, for all the reasons expressed when they first floated that idea

What, you couldn't find post #1487 in the assassin thread? Last night Sev posted the further changes they plan for all 3 rogue trees. They will go straight to live, no time for Lam testing. And yes, we are getting dex to assassinate.

[kendo]

What, you couldn't find post #1487 in the assassin thread? Last night Sev posted the further changes they plan for all 3 rogue trees. They will go straight to live, no time for Lam testing. And yes, we are getting dex to assassinate.

yeah, just found it

silly me, I was looking mainly in the Lam forums, thinking they might actually do some testing

well, there goes my rogue build. everything will now be Dex only, thanks Turbine.

guess I will go build a Barb or Pallie as they seem determined to make everything cookie cutter

[CThruTheEgo]

well, there goes my rogue build. everything will now be Dex only, thanks Turbine.

guess I will go build a Barb or Pallie as they seem determined to make everything cookie cutter

To be fair, int builds were already cookie cutter. There were minor variations but all used nearly the same basic build. It will be the same way with dex, a set core build with minor variations.

That's what I don't really understand. It's not like adding dex to assassinate is going to diversify assassin builds at all. It's just going to change the shape of the cookie cutter. So why bother adding dex?

[Mellkor]

^ agreed.

Most INT builds only had minor differences. So minor, IMO, that really it was the player behind the build that REALLY made one or the other "Better".


But yeah, DEX to assassinate will make it even more cookie cutter now. It will be the loss of the flavor and idea of the cunning assassin that saddens me more than anything else, I guess.

It will still be a fun class and fun playstyle for me, only better now. But DEX based.

Now..Halfling? or Shader Kai? Drow?...

Maybe some very minor equipment changes, but not really a bother.

Time to put the thinking cap on.....

[VinoeWhines]

I liked the INT based Assassin because it was synergistic with some Mechanic features I used.
I try to reach the 70's DC for Assassinate but used the INT to damage with Repeaters and with Improved Precise Shot was able to tear through multiple threats and hit two for one Shrouding Shots if timed right.
Now DEX will change that up, somewhat, Assassinate will still work but range damage will be weaker if going DEX based, Daunting Roar is nice CC as well, based on INT.

I'm still with the idea to TRing' to half elf, now that DEX is prevalent.

[Mellkor]

Well after playing around with a Dex based halfling and the standard INT based drow.....


They are about the same.

Int based Drow ends up with *slightly* lower defenses and lower dex based skill scores. And thats about it. Because I have to give up some dodge cap on the halfling to fit everything I want in, the dodge scores end up about 5 points difference between the two builds. I do end up with an extra feat on the halfling, tho, which is nice.

DPS is about the same. It is slightly higher on the DEX based halfling, but it is hardly noticeable. I am seeing 4kish crits on both builds.

For some reason my saves are significantly better on the dex based halfling. I haven't figured out why yet.

Over all, I think it is pretty much a wash. Either one works well. The dex build definently has a much greater potential defense wise, but in practice, it just doesnt work because you have to give up too much to gain a significant advantage defense wise over the INT build.

For the above reasons, I am now advocating Drow as the best race for this, because it is easy to switch from INT to DEX on that race, with more or less equal results either way.

I will update the OP soonish.

[CThruTheEgo]

For some reason my saves are significantly better on the dex based halfling. I haven't figured out why yet.

Halflings get a racial +1 to saves and 3 of their 5 cores each add +1 to all saves. I don't know how many of the cores you're taking, but that might be part of it.

The dex build definently has a much greater potential defense wise, but in practice, it just doesnt work because you have to give up too much to gain a significant advantage defense wise over the INT build.

What enhancements are you taking on the dex based halfling? In Hassan's Assassin in my sig, I've got a human dex based build and halfling dex based build posted, both of which come out ahead of my old int build in both offense and defense. I end up with 15-20 more dodge, a higher assassinate DC, better trash dps through no mercy and balanced attacks, haste boost instead of melee power boost, higher PRR and saves, and slightly lower boss dps due to a lower benefit from know the angles (or in the case of the halfling version, the halfling guile line). That, to me, seems like significant gains for a very small cost.