Master Assassin: an int based build

[Hobgoblin]

how would you change this for a drow - 3rd life?

I have a drow str based assassin with around a 50ish dc -

I dont really have the time to do a tr - so looking at this build kinda hard.

I know that it would be non optimal as a drow, but i dont really feel like tring a 3rd time.

what would you suggest?

hob

[SableShadow]

I would say thats about right, since these are only guesstimates based on empirical observations. I am also not entirely sure the assassinate DC is a linear progression, because it certainly seems like success rate goes up by big jumps with only a point or 2 rise in DC vs certain mobs. But I will leave that to you number crunchers to research and figure out.

Maybe seeing the off-hand proc (mob has to save twice)?
50% chance to save on 2 hits means 25% of mob saving ...
40% chance to save on 2 hits means 16% of mob saving ...
30% chance to save on 2 hits means 9% of mob saving ...

[Mellkor]

Maybe seeing the off-hand proc (mob has to save twice)?
50% chance to save on 2 hits means 25% of mob saving ...
40% chance to save on 2 hits means 16% of mob saving ...
30% chance to save on 2 hits means 9% of mob saving ...

Could be. /shrug Its a factor I did not consider. Now I have to pay attention to how often they save vs the first attempt when assassinating single mobs

[Auran82]

Could be. /shrug Its a factor I did not consider. Now I have to pay attention to how often they save vs the first attempt when assassinating single mobs

I prefer the 'hit assassinate, keep moving toward another mob method' which lets me assasinate an extra mob quite often.

[RumbIe]

Any suggestions on stat layout for starting with a 32 pt build? I have 10 characters already, but this would be my first rogue. I should have some decent gear to toss towards them and all the requisite tomes (up to +3 for now).

My other option would be to TR a first life Bard I have sitting around doing nothing, but I'm not sure apart form the 34 pt build I would get anything from his past life and I should just wait to TR him until I feel like playing a bard again.

I like going H-Elf, but I usually go with monk splash for the healing amp. Though I see your desire to get +1 int opened. Is Artie the best option here?

Thanks

[SableShadow]

I prefer the 'hit assassinate, keep moving toward another mob method' which lets me assasinate an extra mob quite often.

From what I can tell, it isn't an "either / or" decision ... so we might as well go for the hat-trick any time we can.

[Fadebal]

EDIT: I started own thread as I went a bit off-topic. But anyways, I would like to thank OP for intresting build and especially encouragement to start playing again

After long break I found this thread and I like the concept of this build.
I'm planning to play this game again with my two ddo-newbie friends (tank and divine caster) thus this build might fit in nicely.
I don't have helf but I'm about to true reincarnate my semi-obsolete Monster-build. Most important, even thought I have played this game since european beta, I haven't leveled small fellows or even pure rogue.

So this version is far from optimal, but I'm planning to have some beers and play mostly for the fun with my friends
Related to previous statement: I would like to ask from professionals, how far this build can go? I haven't leveled anything to epic-leves (I quit before that).

Level 20 True Neutral Halfling Male
(20 Rogue)
Hit Points: 284
Spell Points: 0

BAB: 15/15/20/25/25
Fortitude: 11
Reflex: 22
Will: 10

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(34 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 13 16
Dexterity 15 17
Constitution 15 18
Intelligence 17 26
Wisdom 8 10
Charisma 8 10

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Strength used at level 3
+1 Tome of Dexterity used at level 3
+1 Tome of Constitution used at level 3
+1 Tome of Intelligence used at level 3
+1 Tome of Wisdom used at level 3
+1 Tome of Charisma used at level 3
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7
+3 Tome of Strength used at level 11
+3 Tome of Constitution used at level 11

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance 6 27
Bluff 3 33
Concentration 2 16
Diplomacy 3 24
Disable Device 7 32
Haggle -1 1
Heal -1 1
Hide 2 39
Intimidate -1 1
Jump 5 24
Listen -1 3
Move Silently 6 37
Open Lock 6 27
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 3 9
Search 7 32
Spot 3 24
Swim 1 4
Tumble 6 27
Use Magic Device 3 24

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Fighter
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting

Level 2 (Rogue)

Level 3 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness

Level 4 (Rogue)

Level 5 (Rogue)

Level 6 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Precision

Level 7 (Rogue)

Level 8 (Rogue)

Level 9 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting

Level 10 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Opportunist

Level 11 (Rogue)

Level 12 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Insightful Reflexes

Level 13 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Improved Evasion

Level 14 (Rogue)

Level 15 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting

Level 16 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Slippery Mind

Level 17 (Rogue)

Level 18 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness

Level 19 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Skill Mastery

Level 20 (Roogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost II
Enhancement: Rogue Deadly Shadow
Enhancement: Halfling Cunning I
Enhancement: Halfling Cunning II
Enhancement: Halfling Cunning III
Enhancement: Halfling Guile I
Enhancement: Halfling Guile II
Enhancement: Halfling Guile III
Enhancement: Halfling Hero's Companion I
Enhancement: Halfling Hero's Companion II
Enhancement: Halfling Hero's Companion III
Enhancement: Halfling Hero's Companion IV
Enhancement: Halfling Luck (Reflex) I
Enhancement: Halfling Luck (Will) I
Enhancement: Halfling Luck (Will) II
Enhancement: Halfling Luck (Will) III
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking I
Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking II
Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking III
Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking IV
Enhancement: Rogue Assassin I
Enhancement: Rogue Assassin II
Enhancement: Rogue Assassin III
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy III
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy IV
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training III
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training IV
Enhancement: Improved Hide I
Enhancement: Improved Hide II
Enhancement: Improved Move Silently I
Enhancement: Improved Move Silently II

Some points and additional questions (some of them are Enhancement related, so easily adjustable):
1) In our team, tank should hopefully take aggro with hate, intimi and Hero's Companion IV. Should I take more Subtle Backstabbing?
2) After level 12 I'm going to use min2 khopeshes. Is my to-hit too low without khopesh profiency+oversized weap. and/or when it is going to be (epic content etc.)?
3) Faster sneaking? Useful or should I learn to time sneak button? Our tank will be Stalwart defender, so my lowered running speed might make me zerk less :P
4) Is Slippery mind useful? Will save looks poor (rogue flaw), but halfling could give some boosts? I'm thinking about Monastery dancing etc., but our cleric should have good will save to stay alive and raise if needed.
5) Looks squishy for my taste. I have Minos and tier3 HP item. Should I fit additional toughness?
6) Modified dodge feat looks appealing, but is it better than extra toughness?
7) I didn't take power attack, because my to-hit is very poor and I'm planning to test new precision feat.
8) I didn't take haste boosts or extra action boosts, because I'm afraid that our team won't kill things fast anyways. Is this wrong approach?
9) Our tank is "just" 32pt dwarf and cleric 32pt human. Is our team setup viable with current dungeon scaling system?
10) I might take imp. crit if I find better weapons than min2. But what feat I should replace?
11) Anything else?

Any help is highly appreciated.
Thanks.

[Mellkor]

Updated the lev 25 gearset again in the OP. The jorgundals collar turned out to be a disappointment, it is simply too easy to always have haste from a castor or to haste yourself for it to be useful, IMO. So I got rid of it and switched things up, and added somethings that are more useful in U17 EE content. I have been using this set up for a bit now, and I don't think it will change until the next update, at least. It is one of those set ups where there is almost NO overlap of abilities (only overlap is true seeing on both the goggles and trinket set bonus) and if you take one thing away, something is noticeably diminished somewhere else and/or causes a cascading domino effect of failure trying to make up for the loss of that slot to something else. I played with it a lot LOL.

I also updated the skill numbers to reflect the lev 25 gear set up. Some nice gains there as well.

[hi_sa1nt]

EE Steady Handed Armbands yellow slot(+2 insite DEX) colorless slot(+7 DEX)

Wont this just overlap with

EE Treads of Falling Shadow (striding 30%, +8 DEX, +3 DEX insight)

Or is it just in case you can't get one over the other?

[Auran82]

I have been getting stuff for my rogue gradually (and I probably wont see EE stuff, lol, mainly EH) and one item I have found to be quite nice is the PDK Gloves, lets me hit myself with heal scrolls for over 300 each. Was pretty sad banking his Abashi stuff, stuck with the Boots of Corrosion for the moment with +2 Int and +14prr slotted (have striding on his quiver)

My gear will most likely look a fair amount different, lol, still have a Min II HP Greensteel helm (cleansed) that I don't want to waste, lol.

[Mellkor]

Wont this just overlap with



Or is it just in case you can't get one over the other?

No overlap. It is one or the other in most cases, as described.

I have it set up so that when worn as a set (bracers + boots), one set is optimized for trapping (EE Bracers of Twisting Shade + EE Treads of Falling Shadow) and the other for everyday use (EE Steady Handed Armbands + EE Sure-footed Boots). Both sets always give you dex +7, insite dex +2, exceptional seeker +5, striding 30%, and resistance +7. The everyday set adds mobility, +4 bonus to attack, and balance +20. The trapping set instead adds +20 search, +20 DD, and an extra +2 to dex, (and a redundant blurry).


This is a great set up, as +20 to spot is in the goggles. Spot is really the only always on trap skill you need (and even that is arguable), so this set-up allows for some nice improvements when not trapping (which is most of the time). And for those times when you are trapping a lot, you can still wear the trapping set all the time without gimping yourself too much.

[RumbIe]

So I have built one and made a few adaptations for a 32 point build. I'm level 12 now and finally have assassinate and I am enjoying playing the character. My style up until now has been hack and slash almost like I was a fighter and I have been able to do so quite well with minimal deaths and high kill counts. I'm excited for a new style in sneaking and killing.

Right now I have +3 Keel rapier of lacerating and a +3 boreal shortsword of lacerating (I think. definitely +3 of lacerating but I can't remember the prefix.Maybe it's holy or maybe I have both.)

In any case most build always have an end gear line-up which is nice to have goals and even having a lvl 20 gear line-up is good hear too, but I'm wondering what I should be looking for around level 12, 15 and 18 for gear to get me there. Some, like GS, is self explanatory, but what armor are people wearing? Any special clothing or jewelery that is nice? What are people using for weapons as they level? Named and attributes to look for would be nice.

I mean assassinate is a fortitude save so something that reduce CON would be nice, however once you swing to reduce CON you are out of sneak mode and can't assassinate anyways right? (Please be patient this is my first rogue so my playstyle is not quite honed). What weapons should I be looking for and when are they useful. Just focus on highest dps so if my assassinate attempt fails I can hack the mob down faster?

Sorry for the nab questions, but thanks in advance for the help.

[hi_sa1nt]

So I have built one and made a few adaptations for a 32 point build. I'm level 12 now and finally have assassinate and I am enjoying playing the character. My style up until now has been hack and slash almost like I was a fighter and I have been able to do so quite well with minimal deaths and high kill counts. I'm excited for a new style in sneaking and killing.

Right now I have +3 Keel rapier of lacerating and a +3 boreal shortsword of lacerating (I think. definitely +3 of lacerating but I can't remember the prefix.Maybe it's holy or maybe I have both.)

In any case most build always have an end gear line-up which is nice to have goals and even having a lvl 20 gear line-up is good hear too, but I'm wondering what I should be looking for around level 12, 15 and 18 for gear to get me there. Some, like GS, is self explanatory, but what armor are people wearing? Any special clothing or jewelery that is nice? What are people using for weapons as they level? Named and attributes to look for would be nice.

I mean assassinate is a fortitude save so something that reduce CON would be nice, however once you swing to reduce CON you are out of sneak mode and can't assassinate anyways right? (Please be patient this is my first rogue so my playstyle is not quite honed). What weapons should I be looking for and when are they useful. Just focus on highest dps so if my assassinate attempt fails I can hack the mob down faster?

Sorry for the nab questions, but thanks in advance for the help.

If you're in a group, you could always have a wiz energy drain right before you attack if you're worried about a successful will save on the mob's part.

And thanks Mellkor for the input on the two gear set ups. I have almost one complete, working on the second as well.

[SisAmethyst]

Thanks for posting this nice build!

however could it be that you switched some values, e.g. strength and dexterity in your description?

...
Stats: start / end game (+4 tome to all included)

STR 14 / 34
DEX 13 / 30
CON 15 / 32
INT 18 / 54 (18 base, +6 level ups, +8 item, +1 exceptional, +3 insight, +5 tome, +2 capstone, +2 ship, +1 Helf dilli enhancement, +1 human versatility, +5 destinies (including twists), +2 epic feats)
WIS 8 / 24
CHA 8 / 25

As I may have missed something but I don't find how you achieve to get the minimum DEX requirements for TWF, ITWF and GTWF at level, as even with the tomes applied at level 3, 7, 11 and 15 I don't manage to reach the requirements needed.

...

Artificer Dilettante (gives you +2 UMD with scrolls as well as boosting scroll casting level!!! Also access to +1 INT enhancement, and other stuff)
Toughness
Two weapon fighting e.g. at level 3, base dex 13 +1 tome = 14
Insightful reflexes
Precision
Improved crit: pierce (swap to improved crit slash at 20 for use with EMG, then swap to dodge after using/getting CitW weapons)
Improved two weapon fighting
Greater two weapon fighting
Epic Intelligence x2
...

or is the order of feats taken different, or miss I something else?

[Mellkor]

Thanks for posting this nice build!

however could it be that you switched some values, e.g. strength and dexterity in your description?



As I may have missed something but I don't find how you achieve to get the minimum DEX requirements for TWF, ITWF and GTWF at level, as even with the tomes applied at level 3, 7, 11 and 15 I don't manage to reach the requirements needed.



or is the order of feats taken different, or miss I something else?

Dunno about the TWF line. I was able to take them when I TR'd as described as far as I remember. I had already used the tomes the previous life, so maybe thats the difference. In any case just switch feats around as required, if you are having issues for whatever reason. It wont matter much at low levels.

The values are not switched in my description, they are as described on my guy most of the time. My int varies sometimes depending on how my destinies are set up at the time.

[train71]

I'm planning to TR into this build, or a close approximation thereof. However, for flavour reasons, and stockpiled gear reasons (I have a wagonload of shortswords in the ress bank), I am intending a drow shortsword user. I might change my mind to Helf if Drow doesn't seem viable, so asking for input I guess.

Stats would be either:
STR 12
DEX 14
CON 13
INT 20
WIS 8
CHA 10

or:
STR 14
DEX 14
CON 14
INT 18
WIS 8
CHA 12

I don't really have +4 tomes, so first set of stats would be to get the 17dex and max out int, with a +3 tome to con making an even number eventually, or save 6 stat points by dropping int to 18 and add useful pluses to STR, CON and CHA.

I've got a whole lot of levelling gear for rogue, but the 1st life as a rogue was long before EDs or current loot, so I have a few old epics but would need to collect the rest of the gear for endgame, but if the build is as fun as it sounds that shouldn't be a huge issue.

So, is the Drow viable for this, or would Helf just be better?

[Mellkor]

I'm planning to TR into this build, or a close approximation thereof. However, for flavour reasons, and stockpiled gear reasons (I have a wagonload of shortswords in the ress bank), I am intending a drow shortsword user. I might change my mind to Helf if Drow doesn't seem viable, so asking for input I guess.

Stats would be either:
STR 12
DEX 14
CON 13
INT 20
WIS 8
CHA 10

or:
STR 14
DEX 14
CON 14
INT 18
WIS 8
CHA 12

I don't really have +4 tomes, so first set of stats would be to get the 17dex and max out int, with a +3 tome to con making an even number eventually, or save 6 stat points by dropping int to 18 and add useful pluses to STR, CON and CHA.

I've got a whole lot of levelling gear for rogue, but the 1st life as a rogue was long before EDs or current loot, so I have a few old epics but would need to collect the rest of the gear for endgame, but if the build is as fun as it sounds that shouldn't be a huge issue.

So, is the Drow viable for this, or would Helf just be better?

Having played both, I really like HELF better, for 2 big reasons, 1: damage boost + haste boost at the same time!!!!!! and, proficiency in repeaters. Repeaters have proven to be really useful and far better than short bow at all levels.

That said, if you really want to do a drow, go for it. The one thing I liked in going drow over Helf is the inherent SR, but thats really a minor point. I hardly miss it with the helf after getting his will save to a decent level.

[SisAmethyst]

Dunno about the TWF line. I was able to take them when I TR'd as described as far as I remember. I had already used the tomes the previous life, so maybe thats the difference. In any case just switch feats around as required, if you are having issues for whatever reason. It wont matter much at low levels.

The values are not switched in my description, they are as described on my guy most of the time. My int varies sometimes depending on how my destinies are set up at the time.

Thanks for the feedback.

Well that is why I guess I miss something as I too have tomes that apply from my previous life and should kick in at the appropriate level. Starting as a HElf with 13 Dex, one would take Toughness and Arti-Dilli at level 1 as described. Next milestone to choose a Feat would be at level 3 when the tome would apply as +1, so I can't take TWF at lvl 3, as it require min. 15 Dex. neither at the next level 6. Actually only with level 7 one could start to pick TWF, when the +2 tome kick in, which would be at level 8.

Maybe they did recently change the min req. for the TWF line? Or a ranger past-life that reduce the min-req. for the TWF line? Dunno, but I am a bit puzzled... just want to figure it out and save others the trouble as it is a pain if you suddenly at level 3 notice you can't and neither can't do a LR to correct it because your TR cache is full

[karl_k0ch]

Well that is why I guess I miss something as I too have tomes that apply from my previous life and should kick in at the appropriate level. Starting as a HElf with 13 Dex, one would take Toughness and Arti-Dilli at level 1 as described. Next milestone to choose a Feat would be at level 3 when the tome would apply as +1, so I can't take TWF at lvl 3, as it require min. 15 Dex. neither at the next level 6. Actually only with level 7 one could start to pick TWF, when the +2 tome kick in, which would be at level 8.

I don't think that there's an error on your end, SisAmethyst.

If you are on a TR, having read a, say, +4 dex tome, the tomes apply as follows:
At level 3, your +1 tome kicks in before you get to chose your feat. However, 14 Dex is not enough to pick up TWF.
At level 6, your Dex is still 14, still not enough for TWF.
At the beginning of level 7, the +2 tome kicks in. Now your Dex is 15, and you can take TWF as the next feat.
At level 9, you can get TWF as a feat.
At level 11, the +3 tome applies. Your Dex is now 16, which is not enough for ITWF.
At level 12, you cannot take ITWF.
At the beginning of level 15, the +4 tome applies. You can now take ITWF.
At level 18, you can take GTWF.

This means that you're delaying your TWF progression to 9/15/18, if you are on a TR with a +4 tome. If you have a +4 tome, but you are not on a TR, the TWF line moves to 9/18/21. That's not very leveling-friendly.

However, starting with 14 Dex allows you to pick up the feats at 3/12/15 (on a TR) and 6/12/15 (if you need to read the tomes as soon as they become available).

Ranger PLs do not reduce feat requirements, and the TWF prereqs were not changed, as far as I know. It looks like 13 Dex is a good choice if you are at cap and have access to a +4 tome. I would not recommend this for leveling.

Edit: In order to get +4, you need a +4 tome, not a +3 tome. Amended accordingly.

[SisAmethyst]

I don't think that there's an error on your end, SisAmethyst.

If you are on a TR, having read a, say, +3 dex tome, the tomes apply as follows:
At level 3, your +1 tome kicks in before you get to chose your feat. However, 14 Dex is not enough to pick up TWF.
At level 6, your Dex is still 14, still not enough for TWF.
At the beginning of level 7, the +2 tome kicks in. Now your Dex is 15, and you can take TWF as the next feat.
At level 9, you can get TWF as a feat.
At level 11, the +3 tome applies. Your Dex is now 16, which is not enough for ITWF.
At level 12, you cannot take ITWF.
At the beginning of level 15, the +4 tome applies. You can now take ITWF.
At level 18, you can take GTWF.

This means that you're delaying your TWF progression to 9/15/18, if you are on a TR with a +4 tome. If you have a +4 tome, but you are not on a TR, the TWF line moves to 9/18/21. That's not very leveling-friendly.

However, starting with 14 Dex allows you to pick up the feats at 3/12/15 (on a TR) and 6/12/15 (if you need to read the tomes as soon as they become available).

Ranger PLs do not reduce feat requirements, and the TWF prereqs were not changed, as far as I know. It looks like 13 Dex is a good choice if you are at cap and have access to a +4 tome. I would not recommend this for leveling.

Dang it, well thanks Karl, seems I have to go for a LR as soon as I can see my TR cached getting empty
Will not further derail this thread, but will give feedback on the build as soon as I am back on track...