Any reasons left to go pure cleric?

[sirgog]

So you're saying, "X happens where target would die? DI them."

I prefer "X happens where target would die? Send them a quickened heal."

Divine intervention isn't even necessarily better than using your turn for a radiant burst instead. It is the second to last capstone behind ranger. Regardless of whether you can find use for it, after abbot changes, it is indisputably nowhere near as powerful as what any number of front-loaded splashes can offer.

That quickened Heal won't save them in a lot of situations. Nor does a quickened Heal have the effect of totally resetting the target's aggro. If a 450hp melee pulls Horoth's aggro, you will be sending them a lot of quickened Heals, Heal scrolls, and other less efficient spells to try to keep them alive until aggro can be switched back to someone that is better specced for tanking.

Most Clerics use the capstone before it is needed or not at all. The capstone should instead be used like Unyielding Sovereignty - held in reserve until it is really needed, then fired off at a critical moment in a fight.

At the least it prevents a death and SP-intensive rebuffing (100 SP saved in fights like eVON6 that aren't buff intensive, much more in fights like LOB where Deathward, FoM, Haste, GH and Elec Resist are all needed). Often it will save more than that.

[Sweyn]

The capstone won't be useful in Abbot anymore which was one of the only places that made it worth taking.

So because one of the most common exploits used with this capstone got fixed you're complaining it's worthless now? DI has many uses outside of its exploits that make it worth taking, and by extension, worth building a pure cleric.

[Sweyn]

if you think using the cleric capstone in the abbot (which in my mind is a exploit, and basically a reason not to do the ice puzzle as intended) is the only place you think it is useful, then that is a fail on your part.

+1

[Uska]

I agree.

Though I'll miss it in Abbot, had a great run with only 2 healers and the 1 capstoned cleric pulling us through with some trips into the water to avoid inferno and pick up soulstones.

53 deaths but completed so it's all good.

53 deaths what was that elite?

[Eternity25]

So because one of the most common exploits used with this capstone got fixed you're complaining it's worthless now? DI has many uses outside of its exploits that make it worth taking, and by extension, worth building a pure cleric.

I never said it was worthless. I said it wasn't as useful in as many quests. The uses in certain end game raids does make it useful for those situations. I have done the ice puzzle in Abbot without DI many times so that isn't an issue.

What I was asking is if there are any reasons left to go pure. I've seen some good reasons to go pure cleric mentioned which do make sense such as elite ToDs and LoBs and how it can save sp and prevent a party wipe.

My question wasn't a complaint. I was pointing out an evasion build might have better survival. Evasion clerics are useful for healing the fire platform in eVoN if by a slight chance the fire elementals break and taking less damage from the blades in eDQ2. The better saves and the evasion to lessen damage can be just as useful if not more useful than DI.

[AtomicMew]

That quickened Heal won't save them in a lot of situations. Nor does a quickened Heal have the effect of totally resetting the target's aggro. If a 450hp melee pulls Horoth's aggro, you will be sending them a lot of quickened Heals, Heal scrolls, and other less efficient spells to try to keep them alive until aggro can be switched back to someone that is better specced for tanking.

This is a really contrived example. Most clerics would keep DI on the tank rather than maybe get some use out of it by twitching on some random melee who may or may not be caught in time anyway. And if someone is pulling aggro, from what I've seen, it's just as effective to yell at them over voice to take their hate gear off.

Most Clerics use the capstone before it is needed or not at all. The capstone should instead be used like Unyielding Sovereignty - held in reserve until it is really needed, then fired off at a critical moment in a fight.

That's funny, because US is another cleric enhancement that I think isn't very good either. The cast time is way, way too slow to be used in any remotely emergency/critical kind of way.

At the least it prevents a death and SP-intensive rebuffing (100 SP saved in fights like eVON6 that aren't buff intensive, much more in fights like LOB where Deathward, FoM, Haste, GH and Elec Resist are all needed). Often it will save more than that.

Fair enough, but I really dislike the idea of planning for failure. I still don't agree that this is worth nearly as much as what a splash offers you (obviously).

[DeafeningWhisper]

I'm staying pure, I like the sp and the cap stone does allow a better chance at success when PuGing epics (you'de be surprised how many trap monkeys forget to get decent reflex saves because they have evasion). The only splash I might consider is 2 lvls of Monk, for evasion, better saves, extra wis and wis to AC, etc.

Dang it! now I want to splash Monk...

[MeliCat]

I don't like the poor reflex saves and the lack of DR like FvS. But they are very powerful healers. I wish that the capstone had a +2 wis so that they could truly compete as a DC casting class.

[sirgog]

...I still don't agree that this is worth nearly as much as what a splash offers you (obviously).

I think that's pretty reasonable to say. Splashing offers clerics a lot, but I just wanted to clarify that you are giving up a powerful, albeit very situational capstone.

Were I to roll a cleric at the moment, I'd splash, but I'd splash knowing that I'm paying a high price for splashing.

[Sarisa]

I don't like the poor reflex saves and the lack of DR like FvS. But they are very powerful healers. I wish that the capstone had a +2 wis so that they could truly compete as a DC casting class.

And sadly enough, FvS's would still have a +1 DC advantage due to Aura of Menace.

[The_Great_Samulas]

I play all sorts of toons, but I enjoy my pure cleric and pure wizard most of all. I have all sorts of divine casters, none of them heal-bots, so I understand the benefits of splashing. I would give my voice in support of the others here who see the capstone as situationally the most potent capstone in the game.

Unlike other capstones that give a passive benefit, the power of this capstone is totally reliant upon player skill and knowledge. Since it isn't a passive capstone, the player has to make it useful, and this is totally reliant upon that player's skill. I have saved over 10 raids from wipes by the use of this capstone (I stopped counting after that), and that's not counting the not wipe benefits I've gotten from it. Ever had someone range the dragon running up the ramp in epic Von6? Didn't wipe. The more passive benefit in quest situations is constant DI of yourself, allowing a playstyle of reckless abandon, which I find pretty fun.

All and all, I prefer my capped cleric compared to my splashes (I have 3 divine splash characters). In answer to your question. Yes, there is a reason to go pure. But, whether you have the skill and experience to realize the benefits, is totally dependent upon you.

[cdr]

So because one of the most common exploits used with this capstone got fixed you're complaining it's worthless now? DI has many uses outside of its exploits that make it worth taking, and by extension, worth building a pure cleric.

Do you run Abbott? Have you not seen the real exploits? Calling use of a game mechanic an exploit - you have no idea what you're talking about.

Know anyone who ever got banned for using DI in Abbott? That's what I thought.

[SirValentine]

I didn't go pure for the capstone, though - that was just icing on the cake.

This exactly is my feeling. If you're pure anyway, the capstone is worth taking. But the capstone by itself is not reason enough to stay pure. Can I get a +2 Wis in there? And maybe an offensive-casting-oriented PrE?

[MeliCat]

Do you run Abbott? Have you not seen the real exploits? Calling use of a game mechanic an exploit - you have no idea what you're talking about.

Know anyone who ever got banned for using DI in Abbott? That's what I thought.

But come on - admit that it's a totally cheesy tactic.

Also, I am so BORED of ice. I have to BEG to be allowed to do roids.

[Habreno]

And sadly enough, FvS's would still have a +1 DC advantage due to Aura of Menace.

Hmmm... Let's see:

Human FvS vs Human Cleric:

18 - 18 Base WIS
5 - 5 Levelups
3 - 4 Enhancements (2/3 WIS from Class, 1/1 Human Adaptability)
7 - 7 Item
3 -3 Exceptional
2 - 2 Yugoloth
3 - 3 Alchemical (House D) Potion
2 - 2 Guild Ship
4 - 4 Tome
4 - 4 Profane (Abishai Cookie Set Bonus)
51- 52 Total

As the Abishai set bonus is profane, you cannot argue that the Litany of the Dead will balance it, as the Litany wouldn't have an effect.

Adding 2 WIS to Cleric Capstone makes 51- 54. Which means equal DC's with the Aura. And if both are in the party, the Cleric will have a DC 2 higher than the Favored Soul.

Do the math, and honestly, they're equal.

[MeliCat]

Hmmm... Let's see:

Human FvS vs Human Cleric:

18 - 18 Base WIS
5 - 5 Levelups
3 - 4 Enhancements (2/3 WIS from Class, 1/1 Human Adaptability)
7 - 7 Item
3 -3 Exceptional
2 - 2 Yugoloth
3 - 3 Alchemical (House D) Potion
2 - 2 Guild Ship
4 - 4 Tome
4 - 4 Profane (Abishai Cookie Set Bonus)
51- 52 Total

As the Abishai set bonus is profane, you cannot argue that the Litany of the Dead will balance it, as the Litany wouldn't have an effect.

Adding 2 WIS to Cleric Capstone makes 51- 54. Which means equal DC's with the Aura. And if both are in the party, the Cleric will have a DC 2 higher than the Favored Soul.

Do the math, and honestly, they're equal.

Equal IF they got that in their capstone.

Monk splash then in ocean stance?

[Habreno]

Equal IF they got that in their capstone.

Monk splash then in ocean stance?

Hmmm... Let's see:

Human FvS vs Human Cleric:

18 - 18 Base WIS
5 - 5 Levelups
3 - 4 Enhancements (2/3 WIS from Class, 1/1 Human Adaptability)
7 - 7 Item
3 -3 Exceptional
2 - 2 Yugoloth
3 - 3 Alchemical (House D) Potion
2 - 2 Guild Ship
4 - 4 Tome
4 - 4 Profane (Abishai Cookie Set Bonus)
51- 52 Total

As the Abishai set bonus is profane, you cannot argue that the Litany of the Dead will balance it, as the Litany wouldn't have an effect.

Adding 2 WIS to Cleric Capstone makes 51- 54. Which means equal DC's with the Aura. And if both are in the party, the Cleric will have a DC 2 higher than the Favored Soul.

Do the math, and honestly, they're equal.

Reading comprehension FTW! (in red)

Also, if you did splash Monk, you'd have the same ending DC but with less spell penetration and less SP.

[MeliCat]

Reading comprehension FTW! (in red)

Also, if you did splash Monk, you'd have the same ending DC but with less spell penetration and less SP.

No need to be rude Habreno. Saying 51-54 confused me. What you meant by this is Fvs 51 and Cleric 54.

Two past lives wiz then I guess.

[Mellkor]

Hmmm... Let's see:

Human FvS vs Human Cleric:

18 - 18 Base WIS
5 - 5 Levelups
3 - 4 Enhancements (2/3 WIS from Class, 1/1 Human Adaptability)
7 - 7 Item
3 -3 Exceptional
2 - 2 Yugoloth
3 - 3 Alchemical (House D) Potion
2 - 2 Guild Ship
4 - 4 Tome
4 - 4 Profane (Abishai Cookie Set Bonus)
51- 52 Total

As the Abishai set bonus is profane, you cannot argue that the Litany of the Dead will balance it, as the Litany wouldn't have an effect.

Adding 2 WIS to Cleric Capstone makes 51- 54. Which means equal DC's with the Aura. And if both are in the party, the Cleric will have a DC 2 higher than the Favored Soul.

Do the math, and honestly, they're equal.

O please this is unsustainable and unrealistic. LOL.

[wax_on_wax_off]

53 deaths what was that elite?

Does anyone do anything other than elite? The difficulty doesn't have a big impact on the outcome of the raid as most of the deaths are unrelated but in this case the length of the fight from the HP buff that abbot has received certainly contributed to the stellar death count.

I think +2 wisdom on the cleric capstone would be very appropriate but might almost be overpowered. I'd certainly reconsider my lack of capstoned clerics if this change was made. Monk splashed would lose a lot of its allure though which might be bad for sales so I wouldn't expect to see this change.