Pugs and Sarlona

[LazyTigerLily]

But I think it's almost back to normal,Today I've already seen 2 MA and one LOB, many TODs.

Unfortunately those groups have all wanted people who have run the quest before and "know it." Unfortunately for people like me whose guilds don't raid and have never run either of these raids it gets very disheartening to see lfms like that. How am I ever gonna get to know it if I'm not allowed to learn it? (I am only talking about the two new raids, not ToD.)

[mudfud]

Unfortunately those groups have all wanted people who have run the quest before and "know it." Unfortunately for people like me whose guilds don't raid and have never run either of these raids it gets very disheartening to see lfms like that. How am I ever gonna get to know it if I'm not allowed to learn it? (I am only talking about the two new raids, not ToD.)

Bah your guild raids, just not as a guild. Let them know that you are new and maybe they will let you. It's what most of us had to do to start learning it if the guild wasn't doing it.

[LazyTigerLily]

Bah your guild raids, just not as a guild. Let them know that you are new and maybe they will let you. It's what most of us had to do to start learning it if the guild wasn't doing it.

It is not a guild raid, it is guild members who pug or have friends who invite them along. The point was that I will not be able to learn it in a guild raid. If all LFMs say know it why would anyone who doesn't even bother? Generally it means that the leader isn't willing to teach or be tolerant of those who don't know it.

[mudfud]

It is not a guild raid, it is guild members who pug or have friends who invite them along. The point was that I will not be able to learn it in a guild raid. If all LFMs say know it why would anyone who doesn't even bother? Generally it means that the leader isn't willing to teach or be tolerant of those who don't know it.

People who are too afraid to even try will never know. Sure the lfm says "know raid", but if you never ask and let them know your a first timer you will never know. My first time doing MA it said "no noobs, know raid" and I simply let leader know I comprehend how to follow instructions and he allowed me. My 2nd time doing MA said "no noobs, know raid". Hell I still didn't know the raid but knew what to expect now and let the leader know and was accepted. Because I tried and attempted to join that lfm I have more experience for it.

[djl]

It is not a guild raid, it is guild members who pug or have friends who invite them along. The point was that I will not be able to learn it in a guild raid. If all LFMs say know it why would anyone who doesn't even bother? Generally it means that the leader isn't willing to teach or be tolerant of those who don't know it.

So here's what you do:

Join and don't admit to not knowing what you're doing. Then you follow along with everybody else, doing whatever they do. That works pretty well for regular epics.

In the case of raids (because they usually have more complicated mechanics and you actually have to use some strategy to beat the end bosses), do what others have said and PM the leader, leting him/her know that you aren't experienced with the raid but are willing to do your best to learn it. Given that it usually takes anywhere from 15-30 minutes to fill a @#%!^ raid these days, chances are they'll accept you anyway.

[jaegarnel]

yes I understood what you meant. But for example my main http://my.ddo.com/character/sarlona/fistalis/ Has the very basics to run some raids and easier epics etc. (other than i haven't used any tomes this life). I still tend to avoid raids/epics simply because of the general attitude of people towards a fleshy archmage. (*** you should be a necro you suck etc etc.)
The OP wonders why the PUG scene sucks.. its because those who as I stated aren't using "raid/epic approved builds" don't bother to learn them. Fistalis in his first life was pretty much shunned by epic/raid groups.. now in his second life I don't/won't even bother to try to join them.

It's pretty much drilled into newer players heads that either you run a pre approved build or you don't run epic/raids. And many have just written off the epic/raid scene for now. When they feel like joining one they will take the time to build a character that meets the "standards" set by most of the raid/epic leads.

Now let me clarify something. I'm not stating that certain standards or requirements are not reasonable. Just that they don't fit everyones play style. Its more of an issue with the the way the Endgame is designed. Min/maxers want a challange and the devs respond. However this causes those like me (some may refer to as casuals, but simply put non power gamers) to avoid that entire scene. When these type of people hit 20 they have 2 options. TR or LR/GR to totally rebuild themselves to meet the criteria for endgame. Given the general attitude towards people who don't know raids/epics its an easy choice for most.

(good example.. that run they are setting up for new people requires 300 HP.. i'm sitting at 260 at lvl 18 granted I dont have my favor bonus yet and haven't used any tomes but I'm still shy of the minimum, so rather than bother with it I simply skip raids/epics and i'll TR again when I hit 20.)

(another good example.. i don't have a napkin which is a nice piece for a wiz.. i could spend the next month waiting for my raid timer so I can hit my 20th run and get one or i can TR and spend the next month leveling a new life.. when given that option again i'll choose to TR)

I've never even ran a single shroud due to the general negative reaction of those who do towards me. Not to mention the never ending shroud drama posts complaining about X newbie or Y persons build certainly don't make me want to run them. This is why I TR.. because end game just isn't a friendly scene in general. I'd rather be running around on my 2nd or 3rd life at lvl 6 than listening to people complain about my build choices or gear for the 10th time in x raid/epic run.

(of course this is all ignoring the fact that most of the end game is around gaining high level gear of which most of it is useless a majority of the time on a char who is constantly TRing but thats another subject)

Frankly if you let a few rejections discourage you from trying, it's not your build's fault, or other people's, it's yours.

My first char, who's a fleshy archmage too has gotten into nearly every raid and epic LFMs he's applied to.
When he's been rejected, it's because leaders felt they had too many arcanes already.
People won't know whether you're a pm or an am when you apply, and if you do your job well they won't care.

In most content, even endgame one, provided you're good at CC and stay a bit out of the way, you shouldn't need to get healed as a caster anyway, so whether you're a pm or am makes no difference.


Also, not running Shroud? Really? I've seen much worse builds than yours get accepted in that raid, the only reason people give a hard time to someone is if he doesn't say he's new and messes things up.
Since you seem to be TRing all the time, Shroud gear is among the top stuff that makes TRing easier, so your argument that most of the endgame gear won't help you most of the time doesn't fly for that.

It seems to me your problem is not your build or other people's "unfriendliness", it's a lack of self-confidence that prevents you from even trying.
Frankly most raids and epics are EASY, and I can usually take the first 5/11 to apply and complete for normal raids and house P and D epics on my cleric on Ghallanda.

[caberonia]

Frankly if you let a few rejections discourage you from trying, it's not your build's fault, or other people's, it's yours.

My first char, who's a fleshy archmage too has gotten into nearly every raid and epic LFMs he's applied to.
When he's been rejected, it's because leaders felt they had too many arcanes already.
People won't know whether you're a pm or an am when you apply, and if you do your job well they won't care.

In most content, even endgame one, provided you're good at CC and stay a bit out of the way, you shouldn't need to get healed as a caster anyway, so whether you're a pm or am makes no difference.


Also, not running Shroud? Really? I've seen much worse builds than yours get accepted in that raid, the only reason people give a hard time to someone is if he doesn't say he's new and messes things up.
Since you seem to be TRing all the time, Shroud gear is among the top stuff that makes TRing easier, so your argument that most of the endgame gear won't help you most of the time doesn't fly for that.

It seems to me your problem is not your build or other people's "unfriendliness", it's a lack of self-confidence that prevents you from even trying.
Frankly most raids and epics are EASY, and I can usually take the first 5/11 to apply and complete for normal raids and house P and D epics on my cleric on Ghallanda.

It certainly wasn't a few.. it was a month or so worth of trying to join them first life before I gave up and TRed (probably over 50+ ).

I know I could handle them, but why would I waste my time playing with people who made/make it apparent they don't want to party with me? Most of the LFMs up for them tend to say "know it" or some such thing anyway. So I'm not going to waste my time with that aspect of the game, and to be honest I would have cancelled my subscription and quit if Tring wasn't an option and all I had left was end game content/players to deal with.

Players who are arses to other players are people I don't want to deal with.. and whether you will admit it or not.. those same people are predominantly in endgame content runs. It has nothing to do with me.. although thanks for the personal attack.. its always nice when someone can post and prove my point for me.

[mudfud]

It certainly wasn't a few.. it was a month or so worth of trying to join them first life before I gave up and TRed (probably over 50+ ).

I know I could handle them, but why would I waste my time playing with people who made/make it apparent they don't want to party with me? Most of the LFMs up for them tend to say "know it" or some such thing anyway. So I'm not going to waste my time with that aspect of the game, and to be honest I would have cancelled my subscription and quit if Tring wasn't an option and all I had left was end game content/players to deal with.

Players who are arses to other players are people I don't want to deal with.. and whether you will admit it or not.. those same people are predominantly in endgame content runs. It has nothing to do with me.. although thanks for the personal attack.. its always nice when someone can post and prove my point for me.

And that's why you need to be persistant. Sure it was 50+ times but there will always be that one.
Imagine my suprise when I saw an lfm for no summons in shroud today. Asked the lfm creator whats up with that. The response was pets cause part 2 to wipe. And also that pets make you not get the 2 extra chests in part 3. When I asked him/her to elaborate I was stuck with a "that's the way it is answer". It's people like that who everyone needs to show the proper way of doing things.
As it's been said before people are so deadset in there standard ways they are too afraid and close minded to try something new.

[nivarch]

I actually find the raiding scene of Sarlona to be pretty good. Dunno how it is on the other servers but I PUG a fair bit of raids, including epics (didn't go higher than normal LoB/MA tho) and I succeed more often than not.
I am not on the VIP list of anybody so I can't get into friends/channels runs (proof is I bet most people reading this won't know who I am)

Also I run at european hours maybe it explain things, maybe not, can't say since I don't play at US hours

[Dragonhyde]

What I noticed is it seems everyone wants to be in the "good"guild groups and seem to accept nothing else....personally when I decide to raid on one of my bards unless a friend has one getting started, I just start joining the posted raids until i get in one. I have had the same amount of success with the nonraid channel/guild groups as with ones set up by people in those. In raids i do not know I learn as much from failures as i do with success...when a raid fails you can see first hand why certain tactics work and others do not. But then as I have been told before i am just a bard with not enough hp...

[Thaxlsillyia]

I actually find the raiding scene of Sarlona to be pretty good. Dunno how it is on the other servers but I PUG a fair bit of raids, including epics (didn't go higher than normal LoB/MA tho) and I succeed more often than not.
I am not on the VIP list of anybody so I can't get into friends/channels runs (proof is I bet most people reading this won't know who I am)

Also I run at european hours maybe it explain things, maybe not, can't say since I don't play at US hours

^^ i remember you. human fvs. scantily clad if i remember right

most folks just complain abt new players being gimp and never really do anything abt it. to be honest i have only made 4-5 attempts to help anybody who is grossly under geared in 1 yr. the few times i had the opportunity of running with members of the ops guild i just heard them complain loudly and pick on a couple of folks and drop group at the end with a sharp remark. recall bias might have a role to play in it and sample size is definitely low and will not reach statistical power, but i have never seen anybody be so rude to another person in something as trivial as an online game.

what we need is more intiatives to help and teach like tobril's vod training runs and willingness to help rather than "putting somebody in their place" attitude.

[ColinQ]

The Event just ended 2 days ago. . .2 events in a row combined with new raids, the old stuff took a hit.

But I think it's almost back to normal,Today I've already seen 2 MA and one LOB, many TODs.

The past couple days and even during the event I pugged EDA, and have continued to see LFMs for house P and D epics, as well as Red Fens.

Incentive has a lot to do with what LFMs go up. I tend to lead, however since I don't need anything from evon6 and most epics, I'm pretty much just doing the 2 new raids and then EDA for the tasty goodies that drop.

Right now the problem with pugging LoB is two folds, relating back to my own experience

1) Unlike most other raids where you only need at most 1 competent healer/tank/caster to get through, LoB requires all members of the raid to be situational aware to avoid massive death counts. Even in our guild run we need a chat program to co-ordinate things (lag issue with in-game chat). It’s a lot more complex than “run behind rocks when someone yell inferno/see fire breathing out of dragon’s nose” or “run when you see ice shards pop up”. The only other raid that’s similar in this regard is Abbot, and it took a while before we see that in the pugging scene (I can still remember first time seeing Lidas posting his LFM for Abbot 2 hours in advance). The first time I’ve joined this raid with a melee (more of a guild run with last 2 spot pugged) I felt like I was carried through many death even after I’ve read the many guides to know what to expect.

2) Because the raid is new, our guild run is still stuck with the 1tank/3healer/1CC/1kiter/1bard(AC tank)+5dps format. having only 1 tank that is confident enough tank LoB means we can only run this once every 3 days (yes, we are trying to get more people to tank this, but people in our guild are still trying to adapt from the WF barb + caster recon = power through most raid mind set). healer pretty much just needs 2 random sprits and be done with the raids. Whereas DPS are constantly looking for the right spirits. We end up with situation where we are constantly looking for healers (surprise surprise), and healing LoB is a lot like healing VOD where the healer really NEED to know how to conserve SP via scroll healing till LoB hit the 5% hp mark which actually requires some still rather than set anchor on the highest HP tank + spam mass heal which people grow accustomed to. This can be a tough raid for healers (especially first timers) which add to the general shyness of healers pugging in general.

Both of those problems resulted in a slow(er) proliferation of LoB in Pugging scene
In time, both of those problem can be alleviated when

1) People who join those last pug spot guild runs become more familiar with the specials and know how to dodge them and not die (those who don’t and die a lot tend to end up in someone’s blacklist so that’s a case of social Darwinism at work here).

2) DPS toons in guild run got the spirits they are after are more happy to heal the raid just for the cell/fragments.

LoB will probability approach TOD level pugging which isn’t all THAT bad.
But it would be a long time before we see a LoB training run I guess

[Marksreturn]

People who are too afraid to even try will never know. Sure the lfm says "know raid", but if you never ask and let them know your a first timer you will never know. My first time doing MA it said "no noobs, know raid" and I simply let leader know I comprehend how to follow instructions and he allowed me. My 2nd time doing MA said "no noobs, know raid". Hell I still didn't know the raid but knew what to expect now and let the leader know and was accepted. Because I tried and attempted to join that lfm I have more experience for it.

This. I don't mind accepting people who are honest about their lack of experience if they promise to pay attention and keep up. It's about attitude.

[jaegarnel]

It certainly wasn't a few.. it was a month or so worth of trying to join them first life before I gave up and TRed (probably over 50+ ).

I know I could handle them, but why would I waste my time playing with people who made/make it apparent they don't want to party with me? Most of the LFMs up for them tend to say "know it" or some such thing anyway. So I'm not going to waste my time with that aspect of the game, and to be honest I would have cancelled my subscription and quit if Tring wasn't an option and all I had left was end game content/players to deal with.

Players who are arses to other players are people I don't want to deal with.. and whether you will admit it or not.. those same people are predominantly in endgame content runs. It has nothing to do with me.. although thanks for the personal attack.. its always nice when someone can post and prove my point for me.

So let me get this straight...

You've never actually taken part in endgame content, which means you've never grouped with the people who run endgame content, and yet you still feel you have the right to judge them and assume they are "arses to other players"? How do you know if you've never met them?

And frankly, we must not be playing on the same server after all, or not at the same times, because only raids like ToD, MA, LoB, Abbot or epics have "know it" on the LFMs.

Shroud groups definitely don't, and neither do Reavers or most VoD or HoX. The only requirement for those, as any endgame player will tell you, is to be able to listen and follow directions (being willing to admit you don't know the raid helps too).

So yes, as I said, the problem is with you, and trying to blame it on everyone else on the server is a fail. There are elitists, know it alls and other annoying people on Sarlona, but they're a minority even among endgame players.


As for being rejected for one month straight, frankly I don't believe you, at least not for raids like Shroud, HoX or VoD. I've almost never seen people be rejected for those; simply because most competent players know they can take just about any group and still complete.
So either you somehow acquired a bad rep (which I doubt, there are plenty of players who don't pay attention to reps) or you had an extremely weird build your first life.

[caberonia]

So let me get this straight...

You've never actually taken part in endgame content, which means you've never grouped with the people who run endgame content, and yet you still feel you have the right to judge them and assume they are "arses to other players"? How do you know if you've never met them?

And frankly, we must not be playing on the same server after all, or not at the same times, because only raids like ToD, MA, LoB, Abbot or epics have "know it" on the LFMs.

Shroud groups definitely don't, and neither do Reavers or most VoD or HoX. The only requirement for those, as any endgame player will tell you, is to be able to listen and follow directions (being willing to admit you don't know the raid helps too).

So yes, as I said, the problem is with you, and trying to blame it on everyone else on the server is a fail. There are elitists, know it alls and other annoying people on Sarlona, but they're a minority even among endgame players.


As for being rejected for one month straight, frankly I don't believe you, at least not for raids like Shroud, HoX or VoD. I've almost never seen people be rejected for those; simply because most competent players know they can take just about any group and still complete.
So either you somehow acquired a bad rep (which I doubt, there are plenty of players who don't pay attention to reps) or you had an extremely weird build your first life.

Lets get something straight. When I try to join something and someone Doesn't respond at all, and/or respondes with something like are you a PM? no? then you need to rebuild. Everytime I try to join an endgame group, that shows me what type of people they are. Reavers is not endgame.. i've done it many times.

First you say build doesn't matter but now your saying I must have had a strange build my first life? which is it?

Either people refuse to party with people based on their builds or they don't you can't have it both ways.

One does not need to join a raid to see the negative attitudes towards new players of people at end game.. join a simple Twilight ingredients run as a new player who knows nothing of the quest and its quickly apparent.

But its quite apparent you simply want to attack me personally, calling me a liar. It is rather amusing that you argue that people at end game are not arses.. yet in every post you proclaim you are someone who plays end game and then go on to make a personal attack of some sort. Proving my point.

Of course not all end game players are like that. But there is a large chunk of them who are. Again you refuse to admit that.. calling them a minority which simply isn't true in my experience, of which this discourse with you has only reinforced. Of course you may think its perfectly fine to ridicule and personally attack someone you don't know based on numbers in a game.. since you've shown no aversion to attacking me here on the forums without provocation.

One only has to look at the OP.

I have came to a quick, and concise conclusion regarding the epic/raid scene of Sarlona: It blows.


People with sub-par skills, gear, knowledge and builds. So people of Sarlona, I beg of you, take the time to research gear, builds and make the ddowiki your home page.

If you don't know, ask.

Join a raiding channel, send the PMs to appropriate people. Do what it takes, because in all honesty, vets are dropping like flies, and the newer players replacing them aren't performing.

-Kuff

And people wonder why? Because the scene in general is not welcoming to new players. People haven't ran it before so they don't have the knowledge. People haven't done large amount of raids/epics so they don't have the gear. People don't like creating cookie cutter builds so they don't have the preferred builds. The newer players who do join them who "aren't performing" are those who haven't dealt with the general attitude towards new players long enough to write off that portion of the game or to become a vet.

When given those 2 choices I personally skip that portion of the game. Now you can continue to blame it on me. But your ignoring the whole point and message of the original post. Which was to deride new players for not being good enough and/or not making an approved build.

Looking at your join date.. and you saying you've gotten into tons of raid pugs.. he's probably TALKING about you. Yet you spend time attacking me. LOL

My point was and remains. Given the general attitude toward new players. Many simply choose to TR rather than dealing with the negative attitude long enough to become as good as the OP expect them to be. Of course general experience may vary, and of course this isn't true for everyone. Are you disputing my point? or are you just intent on making personal attacks in an attempt to discredit anything I say?

Given the general negative attitude toward me my first life, I have personally decided to forgo most end game activities. I was simply using my personal experience as an example. It by no means is a catch all for everyone, but an illustration of the issue. I have far less tolerance for negative attitudes than many.

[mmgambit]

I have came to a quick, and concise conclusion regarding the epic/raid scene of Sarlona: It blows.


People with sub-par skills, gear, knowledge and builds. So people of Sarlona, I beg of you, take the time to research gear, builds and make the ddowiki your home page.

If you don't know, ask.

Join a raiding channel, send the PMs to appropriate people. Do what it takes, because in all honesty, vets are dropping like flies, and the newer players replacing them aren't performing.

-Kuff

BTW grats on 80 bro

[The_Great_Samulas]

Lets get something straight. When I try to join something and someone Doesn't respond at all, and/or respondes with something like are you a PM? no? then you need to rebuild. Everytime I try to join an endgame group, that shows me what type of people they are. Reavers is not endgame.. i've done it many times.

First you say build doesn't matter but now your saying I must have had a strange build my first life? which is it?

Either people refuse to party with people based on their builds or they don't you can't have it both ways.

One does not need to join a raid to see the negative attitudes towards new players of people at end game.. join a simple Twilight ingredients run as a new player who knows nothing of the quest and its quickly apparent.

But its quite apparent you simply want to attack me personally, calling me a liar. It is rather amusing that you argue that people at end game are not arses.. yet in every post you proclaim you are someone who plays end game and then go on to make a personal attack of some sort. Proving my point.

Of course not all end game players are like that. But there is a large chunk of them who are. Again you refuse to admit that.. calling them a minority which simply isn't true in my experience, of which this discourse with you has only reinforced. Of course you may think its perfectly fine to ridicule and personally attack someone you don't know based on numbers in a game.. since you've shown no aversion to attacking me here on the forums without provocation.

One only has to look at the OP.


And people wonder why? Because the scene in general is not welcoming to new players. People haven't ran it before so they don't have the knowledge. People haven't done large amount of raids/epics so they don't have the gear. People don't like creating cookie cutter builds so they don't have the preferred builds. The newer players who do join them who "aren't performing" are those who haven't dealt with the general attitude towards new players long enough to write off that portion of the game or to become a vet.

When given those 2 choices I personally skip that portion of the game. Now you can continue to blame it on me. But your ignoring the whole point and message of the original post. Which was to deride new players for not being good enough and/or not making an approved build.

Looking at your join date.. and you saying you've gotten into tons of raid pugs.. he's probably TALKING about you. Yet you spend time attacking me. LOL

My point was and remains. Given the general attitude toward new players. Many simply choose to TR rather than dealing with the negative attitude long enough to become as good as the OP expect them to be. Of course general experience may vary, and of course this isn't true for everyone. Are you disputing my point? or are you just intent on making personal attacks in an attempt to discredit anything I say?

Given the general negative attitude toward me my first life, I have personally decided to forgo most end game activities. I was simply using my personal experience as an example. It by no means is a catch all for everyone, but an illustration of the issue. I have far less tolerance for negative attitudes than many.

I know where you are coming from. The attitude you are running to is real. It has been identified in outside evaluations of this game. There is a distinct undercurrent of "elitism" in this game. The way I would advise you is that many of these types of players tend to run together. Get in a guild of like minded people. Don't join groups of people you don't enjoy to run with. That being said. there are also endgame players that are patient and nicer. There are also people that have patience some days, and other days have reached their threshold. This game is open to all. Just like life, don't play with people that you don't enjoy the company of.

You DON'T have to be exceptionally geared to complete high end content in this game. That being said, there are certain things you should have in some content. You DO have to know the appropriate strategies to overcome content, that many elites will just power through with gear, builds, and skill. I have run thousands of raids in PUG situations, it takes patience, knowledge, and explaination to meet with success. What is often the problem is that raid leaders will use "power through" tactics because that is what they are used to or they don't know the proper strategies, and it just doesn't work with non-top tier toons.

Anyways, I know you are right. Elitism at endgame tends to turn off new players. They either stop playing or TR. There are people that are trying to turn this around though.

[Tobril]

So let me get this straight...

You've never actually taken part in endgame content, which means you've never grouped with the people who run endgame content, and yet you still feel you have the right to judge them and assume they are "arses to other players"? How do you know if you've never met them?

And frankly, we must not be playing on the same server after all, or not at the same times, because only raids like ToD, MA, LoB, Abbot or epics have "know it" on the LFMs.

Shroud groups definitely don't, and neither do Reavers or most VoD or HoX. The only requirement for those, as any endgame player will tell you, is to be able to listen and follow directions (being willing to admit you don't know the raid helps too).

So yes, as I said, the problem is with you, and trying to blame it on everyone else on the server is a fail. There are elitists, know it alls and other annoying people on Sarlona, but they're a minority even among endgame players.


As for being rejected for one month straight, frankly I don't believe you, at least not for raids like Shroud, HoX or VoD. I've almost never seen people be rejected for those; simply because most competent players know they can take just about any group and still complete.
So either you somehow acquired a bad rep (which I doubt, there are plenty of players who don't pay attention to reps) or you had an extremely weird build your first life.

It sounds like you are rather disconnected from the real “PUG experience”.

There are tons of “know it” and similar LFM’s for everything.

There are also PLENTY of raid “leaders” that just yell at people for being new.

The problem is real, and not by any means 100% the fault of new people.

[Miow]

On the other hand you see lfms with people who think they know what they are doing even though they refuse rogues and more casters because they are looking for dps on normal shroud,vod,hox...seriously makes me puke in mouth a little.

[Emag]

BTW grats on 80 bro

I love you. YOU MAKE ME HAPPY

Lets get something straight. When I try to join something and someone Doesn't respond at all, and/or respondes with something like are you a PM? no? then you need to rebuild. Everytime I try to join an endgame group, that shows me what type of people they are. Reavers is not endgame.. i've done it many times..

I don't really know who you are, nor do I care, but if you have a stupid build I'm not letting you into my group because I'd rather have someone useful. Some call that "elitism", others call that zerging. I like getting things done in the fastest, least resource intensive group possible and if your build doesn't meet my criteria then...oh well.



That should be a known thing, MAKE BUILDS THAT WORK. People so quickly get offended, but in the end most don't care and if they do, they in turn have stupid builds.