Need advice for staff user

[Angelus_dead]

Acrobats with sticks have very high survivability, excellent utility, can do decent dps, and are not reliant on 'buffz n' hjelz'

Acrobats with staffs have neither high survivability nor decent dps, and as a non-monk non-mana class are fairly dependent on buffs and somewhat on heals.

Regular non-staff Acrobats are similar, but with DPS closer to normal Rogues.

[Angelus_dead]

I'm hesitating between
- 13 rogue acrobat II - 6 fighter kensai I (and then 1 more rogue or 1 barbarian).
- 12 fighter kensai II - 6 rogue acrobat I (and then 2 more rogue ? 2 barbarian ? 2 more fighter ?)

Looks like you're overestimating the value of Kensei, especially Kensei 1. Taking 6 Fighter on a Rogue is pretty solidly a waste, when you could just have stayed Rogue and gotten more damage (and more cheaply).

The attractive splash for a quarterstaff person is Monk: AC, stacking attack speed, and self-healing while fighting.


PS. The DDO authors renamed Kensai into Kensei, which was a change from the original game.

[Diyon]

Comparing Acrobat to 2 wpn build seems strange to me.

You're considering multiclassing with fighter giving you all martial weapons and you're taking the 2 hander line so compare it to wielding a falchion {elf} or a Greataxe {dwarf}.

I have 3 acrobats {2 elves and a halfling} - between lvl 11 -14 - I really enjoy playing them and all 3 are staff builds.

They are squishie, don't do great damage but I do tend to max trap skills.

I don't have the best gear for them {I really hate repeating quests over and over again on the same character - This prob comes from having 40+ alts}.

So far I've made exactly one Greensteel Item on my Cleric {SP goggles of Haste} and can't even begin to consider making an item just for UMD having seen what that cost to make.

I've Never made an Assassin - much prefer Acrobat and Rogue Mech.

The reason you compare an acrobat to TWF is because SA highly favors TWF. Very rarely do you see serious rogue assassin builds using THF.

Acrobats with staffs have neither high survivability nor decent dps, and as a non-monk non-mana class are fairly dependent on buffs and somewhat on heals.

Regular non-staff Acrobats are similar, but with DPS closer to normal Rogues.

This. Basically what I was getting at with one of my previous comments. Acrobat with staff has virtually no benefit over Acrobat with other weapons. The 15% speed boost with staff does not make it compete damage wise with an Acrobat using TWF with wraps or khopeshes, or perhaps others (haven't seen exact numbers on the others), in just about every scenario, and the ones they do pull ahead in they just barely do so. They may still pull ahead of an acrobat using a THW other than staff (I'd bet they do, except maybe with an eSoS).

So again, a non staff acrobat gets everything a staff one does, except they do more damage, which is rather sad IMO. I'm a fan of staff acrobats and think this needs amending.

Looks like you're overestimating the value of Kensei, especially Kensei 1. Taking 6 Fighter on a Rogue is pretty solidly a waste, when you could just have stayed Rogue and gotten more damage (and more cheaply).

The attractive splash for a quarterstaff person is Monk: AC, stacking attack speed, and self-healing while fighting.


PS. The DDO authors renamed Kensai into Kensei, which was a change from the original game.

I'd argue that the 6 fighter is not a waste on an acrobat. You can get more feats (HP, tactics, weapon spec, etc), become tactics focused, do more damage versus monsters immune to SA, gain a higher unbuffed BAB, on top of the Kensai benefits.

What stacking attack speed? Wind stance? Doesn't stack with haste, and the other part is no longer an attack speed bonus. If you mean that they get a higher BAB with monk weapons? Fighter covers that just as well.

Also, it's still spelled Kensai in the ToD set.

[Slaap-Kous-za]

Just as a Point.
i have run with Atma in raids like VoD, HoX Ect.
and have watched his Monk Rogue Acrobat Tank the Boss with no Hassles.

I would never take the Acrobat line with TWF line.
Since it defeats the point of the acrobat since almost every bonus the acrobat line gives is geared towards Quarterstaves.
If you want to run a TWF go Assassin since its abilities help the TWFighter.

The 3 monk Splash Acrobat build as Atma says gives you a 15% Attack speed increase because of Flurry Of Blows.
Since a Quarterstaff is also a Ki Weapon Monk Splashes make sense.

If you want to try a Flavor Build do the 17 Rogue/3 Monk Thief Acro. You only need maybe 2 or 3 Quarterstaves in order to be useful endgame. Mine are GS radiance II , Rahls Might, Smiter.

My Assassin on the otherhand have 7 Sets of weapons. 3 slots vs 14 slots.
With my 13 Rogue/7 Monk Build on Elmarrin I have 550 HP and on my Halfling Thief Acro Have 440 HP.
What I want to know is how are these builds gimped for survivability. and also both have 40 - 60 AC

[AMDarkwolf]

I do have to admit that much of my 'support' for acrobats with sticks comes with having monk levels tossed in, but as has been said above, the added monk levels don't add 'more' than 6 fighter would(with added feats, extra bab, etc)

and yes, if someone wanted to go assassin i'd always highly recommend twf over any form of thf simply due to the sa on offhands.

But just saying, a good acrobat should never be considered 'flavor' if only because it 'does less dmg than a barb' or some other dip**** reason. This isn't a 6 con drow AA with iron defender, or a 7/7/6 sorc/clr/barb mix or some other clear 'I R ROLEPLAY' build. Its a REAL build and if u put any love into building/gearing it, it WILL preform.

As with ANY build, if u just half ass it and don't bother putting any effort into it, it WILL suck. The people above who claim they do **** dps and are squishy obviously only dipped into acrobat as a 'different' thing and never put any real care into what they were doing.

[Diyon]

Just as a Point.
i have run with Atma in raids like VoD, HoX Ect.
and have watched his Monk Rogue Acrobat Tank the Boss with no Hassles.

Won't dispute this, but they tend to do better in those raids because you either don't have to worry about people pulling aggro off you, or they give you more time to establish aggro because there's so much trash.

I would never take the Acrobat line with TWF line.
Since it defeats the point of the acrobat since almost every bonus the acrobat line gives is geared towards Quarterstaves.
If you want to run a TWF go Assassin since its abilities help the TWFighter.

I wouldn't either but what you say here isn't quite true. These are the ONLY things acrobats get related to staff:
1. 15% attack speed that stacks.
2. DEX mod to SA damage.
Both those things only serve to increase damage. Except in very very few scenarios, TWF on an acrobat will do more damage. So in other words the only staff benefits are basically more damage, which TWF does better.
This is rather sad, I wish something would be done about this.

The 3 monk Splash Acrobat build as Atma says gives you a 15% Attack speed increase because of Flurry Of Blows.
Since a Quarterstaff is also a Ki Weapon Monk Splashes make sense.

If it is a 15% bonus from flurry of blows, then its because they get counted as higher BAB, something like fighter or barb lvls does the exact same thing.
That being said, monk splashes are still awesome for acrobats. (I have a 6 fighter/1 monk splash on mine)

If you want to try a Flavor Build do the 17 Rogue/3 Monk Thief Acro. You only need maybe 2 or 3 Quarterstaves in order to be useful endgame. Mine are GS radiance II , Rahls Might, Smiter.

Ultimately, you'll want an Epic Souleater. Personally, with the poor crit range, I'd rather get a Lit II staff than a radiance one.

My Assassin on the otherhand have 7 Sets of weapons. 3 slots vs 14 slots.
With my 13 Rogue/7 Monk Build on Elmarrin I have 550 HP and on my Halfling Thief Acro Have 440 HP.
What I want to know is how are these builds gimped for survivability. and also both have 40 - 60 AC

I would never claim that these builds would be gimped for survivability, but as I said, they will not have anything that a TWF acrobat does better. Once again, I'm NOT saying use TWF and abandon staffs! I think staffs should pull ahead for some reasons on acrobat, but the fact is that they don't. I'll still use staffs because I like it and want to support that aspect and hopefully get this issue changed.

[FranOhmsford]

I do have to admit that much of my 'support' for acrobats with sticks comes with having monk levels tossed in, but as has been said above, the added monk levels don't add 'more' than 6 fighter would(with added feats, extra bab, etc)

and yes, if someone wanted to go assassin i'd always highly recommend twf over any form of thf simply due to the sa on offhands.

But just saying, a good acrobat should never be considered 'flavor' if only because it 'does less dmg than a barb' or some other dip**** reason. This isn't a 6 con drow AA with iron defender, or a 7/7/6 sorc/clr/barb mix or some other clear 'I R ROLEPLAY' build. Its a REAL build and if u put any love into building/gearing it, it WILL preform.

As with ANY build, if u just half ass it and don't bother putting any effort into it, it WILL suck. The people above who claim they do **** dps and are squishy obviously only dipped into acrobat as a 'different' thing and never put any real care into what they were doing.

My exact words - "I have 3 acrobats {2 elves and a halfling} - between lvl 11 -14 - I really enjoy playing them and all 3 are staff builds.

They are squishie, don't do great damage but I do tend to max trap skills.

I don't have the best gear for them {I really hate repeating quests over and over again on the same character - This prob comes from having 40+ alts}."

I don't see how this becomes - "obviously only dipped into acrobat as a 'different' thing and never put any real care into what they were doing.[/QUOTE]

1. Of the 3 Rogue Pres an Acrobat has the hardest time maxing trap skills each lvl.
2. I have exactly one TR {A lvl 5 Paladin on his 1st TR} I levelled him very easily to find that at the highest lvls he was unplayable.
3. I've let it be known that I don't grind for gear if I can help it.
4. The reason those acrobats have not progressed beyond lvl 11-14 is that I'm trying to figure out exactly what to do with the next 6-9 lvls - 2 already have one fighter lvl and I'm considering the different splash possibilities.
I have a lvl 16 monk and having seen the massive difference between Handwraps and Q-Staff I'm a bit wary of taking a monk splash - It would be too easy to just drop Q-Staff altogether and go with wraps.
I also have a slight problem with alt-itis having just created two new lvl 4 characters - this having deleted a number of my lesser used characters.

I was not having a go at rogue acrobats, I was not considering them flavour builds.

I wish to make my acrobats as good as possible this life {One will be lvl 20 till Kobold becomes a Player race}.

Anything I can glean from this thread that will help me would be fantastic BUT I'm going to ask questions.

A staff is a 2 hander - Acrobat's gain benefits with the staff - It doesn't make sense to me to compare Staff dmg with 2 weapon fighting for this reason - As you say if I wished to play an Assassin the benefits of two weapon would be incontrovertible.

However I wish to create 3 top notch acrobats - A comparison to the damage one would do between say a +5 elemental of pure good Q-Staff and an equal Falchion {2 of them are Elves} would be more helpful to me.

Named weapons are of course better but have different abilities to each other so would not provide an equal comparison.

I am hoping of course that the Staff would come out equal to the Falchion but Unless the difference was huge I'd likely stick with the staff anyway if at all possible.

[Diyon]

Anything I can glean from this thread that will help me would be fantastic BUT I'm going to ask questions.

A staff is a 2 hander - Acrobat's gain benefits with the staff - It doesn't make sense to me to compare Staff dmg with 2 weapon fighting for this reason - As you say if I wished to play an Assassin the benefits of two weapon would be incontrovertible.

However I wish to create 3 top notch acrobats - A comparison to the damage one would do between say a +5 elemental of pure good Q-Staff and an equal Falchion {2 of them are Elves} would be more helpful to me.

Named weapons are of course better but have different abilities to each other so would not provide an equal comparison.

I am hoping of course that the Staff would come out equal to the Falchion but Unless the difference was huge I'd likely stick with the staff anyway if at all possible.

Okay, I completely encourage acrobats to use staff, but as I've explained a couple of times already, lets not fool ourselves that they shouldn't be compared to TWF. The only benefits acrobat gets with staffs is damage. If this was not the case, then we couldn't compare them to TWF. Since it is, fact of the matter is a TWF acrobat does more damage. What does staff acrobat get in return for using staff compared to TWF? Nothing, a TWF acrobat gets every single ability except the damage related ones that a staff user gets. I think this needs to be changed, but don't ignore the fact that this is the case as of now.

This is some calcs from another thread, using my acrobat setup on both setups. Remember, the only difference between the two is the damage output:

Alright, so redoing the calcs with glancing blows, stats and offhand corrections.

Buffs:
+2 ship buffs
Yugo potions
Rage
Haste
+3 tomes

Staff:
Starting stats: 18 12 16 13 8 8
STR: 52
DEX: 30
Damage bonus: 65 (31 str bonus + 14 PA + 2 Kensai + 4 weapon spec + 4 Half Orc + 4 gear +6 weapon)
SA: 7d6+30
Seeker: +10 (6+4 kensai)
Weapon: Epic Souleater
Average Damage per hit without glancing blows: 149.58 (calculated using Barrage; doublestrike included here)
Attack Speed (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=275144): 113.3 swings per minute (Haste spell plus acrobat bonuses)
DPS without glancing blows: 277.98155
Glancing Blow: 50% base damage; 13% chance for special weapon effects; Occurs on 75% of attacks, using a 95% success rate. ***Note***I did not add in the Kensai Weapon Mastery bonus to glancing blows as I could not find the numbers for it***
Average Damage on a glancing blow: 34.25 for base, 0.8645 for special weapon effects; total 35.1145
Glancing blows per minute: 84.975
DPS for glancing blows: 49.730910625
Monk strikes: 3 second cooldown, 1s global cooldown before you can use another strike. That can get an earth strike with two other strikes in cycle, so about 11 every 3 seconds. So Monk strike DPS: 3.6666666666666666666666666666667

Total DPS: 331.37912729166666666666666666667 (not using any action boosts)


-------

Khopesh:
Starting stats: 17 14 16 13 8 8
STR: 49
Damage bonus: 40 (20 str bonus + 7 PA + 1 Kensai + 2 weapon spec + 4 gear +6 weapon)
SA: 7d6+20
Seeker: +8 (6 + 2 kensai)
Weapon: Epic Chaosblades
Average Damage per hit without offhand procs: 136.32 (calculated using Barrage; doublestrike included here)
Attack Speed (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=275144): 102.2 swings per minute (Haste spell)
DPS without offhand procs: 232.1984
Offhand Procs: 80%
Average Offhand Damage per hit: 117.5
Offhand attacks per minute: 81.76
Offhand DPS: 160.11333333333333333333333333333

Total DPS: 392.31173333333333333333333333333 (not using any action boosts)

Khopesh wins, provided, I did use a particularly hard to obtain khopesh in the calcs and assumed the damage is effective. Staff is at 84.468319230744394423754171002778% dps of Khopesh

Now for another look, lets take those same setups, and pit them against a 80% fort target and say DR is taken care of. 80% -> 70% opportunist, and lets be generous and -> 55% improved sunder

Staff:
Starting stats: 18 12 16 13 8 8
STR: 52
DEX: 30
Damage bonus: 65 (31 str bonus + 14 PA + 2 Kensai + 4 weapon spec + 4 Half Orc + 4 gear +6 weapon)
SA: 7d6+30
Seeker: +10 (6+4 kensai)
Weapon: Epic Souleater
Average Damage per hit without glancing blows: 109.83 (calculated using Barrage; doublestrike included here)
Attack Speed (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=275144): 113.3 swings per minute (Haste spell plus acrobat bonuses)
DPS without glancing blows: 207.39565
Glancing Blow: 50% base damage; 13% chance for special weapon effects; Occurs on 75% of attacks, using a 95% success rate. ***Note***I did not add in the Kensai Weapon Mastery bonus to glancing blows as I could not find the numbers for it***
Average Damage on a glancing blow: 34.25 for base, 0.8645 for special weapon effects; total 35.1145
Glancing blows per minute: 84.975
DPS for glancing blows: 49.730910625
Monk strikes: 3 second cooldown, 1s global cooldown before you can use another strike. That can get an earth strike with two other strikes in cycle, so about 11 every 3 seconds. So Monk strike DPS: 3.6666666666666666666666666666667

Total DPS: 260.79322729166666666666666666667 (not using any action boosts)


-------

Khopesh:
Starting stats: 17 14 16 13 8 8
STR: 49
Damage bonus: 40 (20 str bonus + 7 PA + 1 Kensai + 2 weapon spec + 4 gear +6 weapon)
SA: 7d6+20
Seeker: +8 (6 + 2 kensai)
Weapon: Epic Chaosblades
Average Damage per hit without offhand procs: 97.16 (calculated using Barrage; doublestrike included here)
Attack Speed (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=275144): 102.2 swings per minute (Haste spell)
DPS without offhand procs: 165.49586666666666666666666666667
Offhand Procs: 80%
Average Offhand Damage per hit: 83.03
Offhand attacks per minute: 81.76
Offhand DPS: 113.14221333333333333333333333333

Total DPS: 278.63807999999999999999999999993 (not using any action boosts)


Gap closes some, staff is now at 93.595687743637433428577553601681% Khopesh


Now for a 100% fort monster that is flat out immune to sneak attack. So with our fort reducers, 75% fort.


Staff:
Starting stats: 18 12 16 13 8 8
STR: 52
DEX: 30
Damage bonus: 65 (31 str bonus + 14 PA + 2 Kensai + 4 weapon spec + 4 Half Orc + 4 gear +6 weapon)
SA: 7d6+30
Seeker: +10 (6+4 kensai)
Weapon: Epic Souleater
Average Damage per hit without glancing blows: 82.04 (calculated using Barrage; doublestrike included here)
Attack Speed (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=275144): 113.3 swings per minute (Haste spell plus acrobat bonuses)
DPS without glancing blows: 154.91886666666666666666666666667
Glancing Blow: 50% base damage; 13% chance for special weapon effects; Occurs on 75% of attacks, using a 95% success rate. ***Note***I did not add in the Kensai Weapon Mastery bonus to glancing blows as I could not find the numbers for it***
Average Damage on a glancing blow: 34.25 for base, 0.8645 for special weapon effects; total 35.1145
Glancing blows per minute: 84.975
DPS for glancing blows: 49.730910625
Monk strikes: 3 second cooldown, 1s global cooldown before you can use another strike. That can get an earth strike with two other strikes in cycle, so about 11 every 3 seconds. So Monk strike DPS: 3.6666666666666666666666666666667

Total DPS: 208.31644395833333333333333333333 (not using any action boosts)


-------

Khopesh:
Starting stats: 17 14 16 13 8 8
STR: 49
Damage bonus: 40 (20 str bonus + 7 PA + 1 Kensai + 2 weapon spec + 4 gear +6 weapon)
SA: 7d6+20
Seeker: +8 (6 + 2 kensai)
Weapon: Epic Chaosblades
Average Damage per hit without offhand procs: 72.54 (calculated using Barrage; doublestrike included here)
Attack Speed (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=275144): 102.2 swings per minute (Haste spell)
DPS without offhand procs: 123.5598
Offhand Procs: 80%
Average Offhand Damage per hit: 59.93
Offhand attacks per minute: 81.76
Offhand DPS: 81.664613333333333333333333333333

Total DPS: 205.22441333333333333333333333333 (not using any action boosts)


Staff at 101.50665828435226452265490700879% of Khopesh! Yay, staff wins one!


Still pretty sad numbers, but major improvements from my previous calcs with the errors. So that gap isn't too bad, but once again still sad that khopesh on an acrobat all other things equal will still generally do more damage.

Thanks to those who pointed out details that helped me get the numbers better this time.

[Viciouspika]

What have many of the posters have forgotten? Halfling dragonmarks. This increases the survivablity of your acrobat at a cost of some DPS. OP, I would go rog13/figther 6/wizard 1: Rogue 13 for acrobat II, and extra rogue feats of improved evasion and oppurtunitist, figther 6 for feats(4 total) disregarding what is needed for Kensai I(not impressed Kensai doesnt shine until about kensai II), and Wizard 1 for wizard feat of maximize.

You could drop Fighter down to 4 and raise rogue by 2 for an extra d6 in sneak attack, but I like the extra feat and +2 to base attack.

Feats I would take: Toughness, Power Attack, Cleave, Greater Cleave, Improved Crit(blunt), Least, and Lesser, and Greater Dragonmarks of Healing, Maximize, and three feats for flavor. TWF chain if you wish(personally not fond of chain), or Combat Expertise, and Improved Trip, and Iron Will(for rogue weak will saves).

Wizard Spells short but sweet Expeditious retreat and Night Shield for short bonus to saves. If taken early, you can use different spells like grease hehehe.

Skills max UMD, Search, Spot, Disable Device, and Bluff. Half ranks in balance, jump, open locks, and tumble or one rank but whats an acrobat that cant tumble. Gimped I tell you GIMPED. Have fun and enjoy the Acrobat life.