fun runs = fail runs?

[Consumer]

http://my.ddo.com/character/khyber/ruinhorn/

Not like there is anything to strip off...

My gear provides:

+2 str madstone
6 ogre power stregnth
+2 competence to hit
+2/2 fabricators set
+4 str +5% doublestrike fabricators proc
1 damage boost
6 seeker
5 SA Tharne's
+2 exceptional strength

30% threat
crushing wave guard
earth grab guard

Maxed out gear would get:

+2 str madstone
+7 str red dragon helm
+3 profane abishai
+10 seeker mari chain
+4 damage claw set
+3 exceptional strength
2 str FB set
+2/+2 FB set
+2/+2 Shintao Monk set
greater shocking blow
5 tharne's

20% threat
magma surge guard
disintegration guard
30% amp

A difference of:

7 STR
4 seeker
6 damage
- 1 boost
- 10% threat
30% amp

Minus procs and guards



As for weapons everyone aims for the EAG and the ESoS for DPS on a THF. I currently have the shard of the EAG and the Seal of the SoS. I should have had the EAG seal by now but am running on a streak of bad luck with it's drops. The ESoS shard is a pain in the arse to get so I don't have much hope of getting that one soon. As for TWF I have dual lit II's for future TRs which are only really rivalled by tier III alchemical weapons.

[Consumer]

Your perception of weaker leadership may not always be a correct assumption.

Leader handing me the star without asking because they think I know the raid better or leaders rage quitting when their tank wasn't good enough to tank in E chrono.

I would say I was correct in those situations.

[NytCrawlr]

Ruinhorn, being able to steal agro doesn't make you the most capable tank. Not even close. Your definition of "capable tank" is not just seriously flawed. It's flat wrong.

Doing beastly DPS and generating a ton of agro is NOT the most important factor in being a tank.

And, YES, you should remove half your gear or stop swinging or whatever you need to do to stop from pulling agro if the leader designated someone else as tank. That's called following the star and working as a team and it's what you do in a raid.

+1 all around and thank you for defending us SDers and DOSers from some of these damage crazed players that can't buy a clue.

[Rydin_Dirtay]

Leader handing me the star without asking because they think I know the raid better or leaders rage quitting when their tank wasn't good enough to tank in E chrono.

I would say I was correct in those situations.

From what you posted, it sounded as if you are the type who perceives poor leadership, and then decides to run the raid for the star -- without having the star.

Now that you have verified that you do not do that, I'm cool with it. The situations you describe are just bad pugs.

[Renvar]

My gear provides:

+2 str madstone
6 ogre power stregnth
+2 competence to hit
+2/2 fabricators set
+4 str +5% doublestrike fabricators proc
1 damage boost
6 seeker
5 SA Tharne's
+2 exceptional strength

30% threat
crushing wave guard
earth grab guard

Maxed out gear would get:

+2 str madstone
+7 str red dragon helm
+3 profane abishai
+10 seeker mari chain
+4 damage claw set
+3 exceptional strength
2 str FB set
+2/+2 FB set
+2/+2 Shintao Monk set
greater shocking blow
5 tharne's

20% threat
magma surge guard
disintegration guard
30% amp

A difference of:

7 STR
4 seeker
6 damage
- 1 boost
- 10% threat
30% amp

Minus procs and guards



As for weapons everyone aims for the EAG and the ESoS for DPS on a THF. I currently have the shard of the EAG and the Seal of the SoS. I should have had the EAG seal by now but am running on a streak of bad luck with it's drops. The ESoS shard is a pain in the arse to get so I don't have much hope of getting that one soon. As for TWF I have dual lit II's for future TRs which are only really rivalled by tier III alchemical weapons.

Yep. Standard DPS toon gearset. Definitely not a tank toon gearset. Nothing here but strength, to-hit, and damage boosts. The claw set is the only item you are showing that provides any tanking benefits. I'm sure your choice of race, pre, feats, and AP are are similiarly DPS focused. All of this is great for being a member of the Spank part of Tank and Spank.

In a group with no real tank, you would suffice on norm, but you are not optimal for that role. You are much better put to use in the group by beating on the backside of Horoth and Suulu and letting someone else be the focus of the boss attacks.

[Consumer]

Yep. Standard DPS toon gearset. Definitely not a tank toon gearset. Nothing here but strength, to-hit, and damage boosts. The claw set is the only item you are showing that provides any tanking benefits. I'm sure your choice of race, pre, feats, and AP are are similiarly DPS focused. All of this is great for being a member of the Spank part of Tank and Spank.

In a group with no real tank, you would suffice on norm, but you are not optimal for that role. You are much better put to use in the group by beating on the backside of Horoth and Suulu and letting someone else be the focus of the boss attacks.

I could sacrifice 4 AP for an extra damage boost but that would be the only extra damage I could squeeze out of the build.

In a group with no real tank, you would suffice on norm

This was the case and the reason I recommended I tank and it was a normal run.

[SoloPhalanx]

Yep, I should strip half naked and and use only half my class abilities to allow someone less capable than me to tank.

If that's what would have been best to do what was intended by the star owner, then yes.

If you're too good for puggers, don't join them.

[Ravoc-DDO]

Pride goes before a fall

[Renvar]

I could sacrifice 4 AP for an extra damage boost but that would be the only extra damage I could squeeze out of the build.



This was the case and the reason I recommended I tank and it was a normal run.

OK. You missed my point on the AP. I'm sure you have as much AP spent on damage enhancing as possible. That is why you are probably not the best choice for Tank. You are the best choice for DPS.

For some reason you seem to think Tank = DPS. or Tank = Agro. This is false. Tank = Avoid Damage/Easy Healing.

A good tank has:

DR in the mid 30's or better when they need it.
Saves all three between 30 and 40.
AC in the mid 80's or better when they need it.
HP in the 700+ range. Preferrably more on harder difficulties of ToD, LoB.
Evasion (if possible. Doesn't hurt to have, but not mandatory)
Healing Amp over 150%.
Threat Boost over 200%
Intim Skill at 60+
Balance Skill at 30+
GS Min II/LitII or better (eSoS, eChaos, eAntique, Alchem TierII+, all qualify)

How does your build stack up on this list? It's OK if it doesn't. You didn't build it to Tank. You built it to DPS. And that's probably what it does very well. And that's probably the role you should play in the party.

[Lillou]

Tried joining 3 ToD's today, the first took too long to fill and i had to do some work, the second lfm had been up for ages and healers weren't joining. While it was up I saw another run already with healers, I was doubtful of the players in my party as well. The other LFM has a few people I've played with before, however I know the WF 12/8 is a rubbish tank before spitting on people look at yourselfas I've stripped myself of gear and dropped boosts and autocleave and still taken agro off him (even with time to build agro). ToD normals easy so I join their group and we get going relatively quickly.

Instructions are given as to who was doing what and we get going. During the wait I've MyDDOed the party and although I'm not the set tank, I know I'm tanking no matter what I do. Anyway I say nothing as to not offend anyone.
it was my 20th on this life and the leader put up the raid to make me tank as I had never done it. I'm a pure dwarf fighter and not build to tank, but I have the heal ampl, the save and the xp to tank, so I should be able to tank a Horoth in about 80%.

Fight starts and the 12/8 and caster healing him die fighting the orthon after 30 secs. Two melee die fighting the "fake sulu" as the party leader called him. Maybe you didn't get any lag, but obviously other did... and to me when I go flying and stay in the air for a few seconds I consider that as lag...I take the opportunity to say that I recommend that I tank Horoth as I have the highest DPS. At this point I've held agro on both judge and jailer missing ~30% of my DPS and am asked if I think I can hold agro on Horoth. and it was said you were going to tank... thanks for me...


Part two the kiter dies along with half the party because of Mabar lag, I did not have any lag. I did not know it specifically targeted partiular members of the party to stop them providing vital roles. Buy a PC that's not a piece of ****.
same lag was there again... and worse... but maybe you were still busy DDOing people that you didn't see it...

Part 3 starts fine until I stop receiving heals while tanking Horoth (at 30%) he's back to 100% by the time I've got agro back. Would have had no problem killing Horoth and kiting or tanking sulu for the rest but the party leader suggests a reform instead. Yes and it's the leader's choice and it was a GOOD choice, the lag was bad, 5 people had died, it was a wipe, you are not the one spending the mana potions... People DDoor out and I say thanks for the party and I wont be running with you again. to your knowlege, you are the only who left the party... (well except for one of the healer who had to go) and thanks you did leave

/story time



I would have been happy to run it with them again if they had taken it more seriously. However they treated it like a guild fun run even though only a few of them seemed to know each other, most of the party was PUGers. The in jokes between the 3 or 4 of them were flying around throughout the quest while they ****ed the raid for everyone else. it was a friend ToD, and the reason it filled quickly is that once on LFM we were already 9. If you had time to DDO all of us, you had time to listen to me saying that I had never tanked, that it was my 20th on this life, that I never got a single melee ring and blablabla

I've got 8 completions since I've been back at cap and that was the first wipe and the only one that wasn't taken seriously. My point is to take raids seriously (can still joke around to a degree) unless your in a guild party or you're competent enough to combine fun and raids. the only reason we failed was LAG
The leader is a GREAT LEADER, and all the people were experienced palyers.
You had no fun ? who has fun failing a raid ?

We not good enough for you ? you spit on the tank, you spit on the healers, you spit on the leader... put up your own LFM and choose your members and stop crying on the forum because things didn't go as you wanted them to go.

By the way, we run that ToD right after with the same group of friends, I tanked and it all went fine... nobody died and we had fun...

[MeliCat]

By the way, we run that ToD right after with the same group of friends, I tanked and it all went fine... nobody died and we had fun...

Glad your second run went well

I really like your approach here and would be happy to join any of your or your friends runs if you wanted to have me (I give good heajl occasionally. )

[Uchuujin-San]

I give good heajl occasionally.

Mel you dirty, dirty girl!

[MeliCat]

Mel you dirty, dirty girl!

O.o

Pot. Kettle.

[kazeikan]

O.o

Pot. Kettle.

Roldyn's a dirty girl?

[Tobril]

Roldyn's a dirty girl?

Now were are finally getting somewhere with this thread.

[Habreno]

Ah, drama.

Glad to see you're back on the playing field, Khyber. Was worried about you guys when an Argonite decided to run Shroud and not hit the altars.


As far as the things here, I'm kinda in the middle. I can see everything, but don't really have a side. Though the OP should have backed down a little bit. The tanks are chosen, and the only person who changes that is the PL.

[Uchuujin-San]

Roldyn's a dirty girl?

You're always welcome to find out...

/Roldy makes sexy eyebrows at Sham

[kazeikan]

I better not find something unexpected down there. I'm not good with ... surprises. Mel was the last straw

[Beer_Dude]

We do drunken raid runs every week. We do fail here and there but it's not very often. I can promise you that we have fun in the process too. Everything you said that wasn't cool happens on our runs. Goofing on each other, talking smack, making fun of someone who dies. In fact when someone does die not only do we make fun of them, we laugh at them and make them do a shot. We most certainly have fun while raiding and rarely do we fail, but when we do BFD. We laugh at ourselves and rerun it. Let's be honest how much time does it really take to rerun a raid?

So I'd say the very opposite. Fun runs=success and laughter at the same time. This is after all a game and if you need certain pixels (aka gear) on your account to feel worthy you might need to rethink things. Here's a thought. We already smoke this epic stuff with the gear we have now. So chasing a pixel just to kill it faster is just as much of a waste of time as failing a raid. In the long run you're already beating the raid anyway. In fact it's more of a waste of time if you didn't have fun doing it because you can beat it w/o said gear.

You said they were goofing off and having fun and they failed. BFD! Why? Because they ran it again and completed. End result, they had a good time got a completion and were one step closer to getting another pixel. Pixel or not they are already beating said raid so why not have fun doing so. Big deal if you wipe as long as it was fun. Why? Let's say you already had every peice of gear you needed on all your toons. What else are you going to do for entertainment? Go kill said boss even faster and not give a squat what drops because you have everything you need? Where's the fun in that?

This is exactly what happens on drunken raid nights. Most of us need zero gear from any of those raids but we still run it. Tis why newbies love running these things with us. They don't even have to roll on gear we just pass it off to them because we all heve 2-3 of them already stashed away from the last time we couldn't pawn it off because there was no newbie to give it to. We don't do it for gear or because the raid is fun, because most raids aren't after the first 10X running it. We do it because we make it fun, regardless of what we're running, there really isn't any content we can't finish if we set our minds to it, but it's more important to have fun because the gear will come sooner or later (I know epic raid gear qualifies as later for most of us as it seems to never drop).

Trust me some of the top players on Khyber who don't need anything from these quests still jump in the drunken raid runs from time to time. If it's not for the gear it's obviously to have fun and goof off.

[stainer]

We do drunken raid runs every week. We do fail here and there but it's not very often. I can promise you that we have fun in the process too. Everything you said that wasn't cool happens on our runs. Goofing on each other, talking smack, making fun of someone who dies. In fact when someone does die not only do we make fun of them, we laugh at them and make them do a shot. We most certainly have fun while raiding and rarely do we fail, but when we do BFD. We laugh at ourselves and rerun it. Let's be honest how much time does it really take to rerun a raid?

So I'd say the very opposite. Fun runs=success and laughter at the same time. This is after all a game and if you need certain pixels (aka gear) on your account to feel worthy you might need to rethink things. Here's a thought. We already smoke this epic stuff with the gear we have now. So chasing a pixel just to kill it faster is just as much of a waste of time as failing a raid. In the long run you're already beating the raid anyway. In fact it's more of a waste of time if you didn't have fun doing it because you can beat it w/o said gear.

You said they were goofing off and having fun and they failed. BFD! Why? Because they ran it again and completed. End result, they had a good time got a completion and were one step closer to getting another pixel. Pixel or not they are already beating said raid so why not have fun doing so. Big deal if you wipe as long as it was fun. Why? Let's say you already had every peice of gear you needed on all your toons. What else are you going to do for entertainment? Go kill said boss even faster and not give a squat what drops because you have everything you need? Where's the fun in that?

This is exactly what happens on drunken raid nights. Most of us need zero gear from any of those raids but we still run it. Tis why newbies love running these things with us. They don't even have to roll on gear we just pass it off to them because we all heve 2-3 of them already stashed away from the last time we couldn't pawn it off because there was no newbie to give it to. We don't do it for gear or because the raid is fun, because most raids aren't after the first 10X running it. We do it because we make it fun, regardless of what we're running, there really isn't any content we can't finish if we set our minds to it, but it's more important to have fun because the gear will come sooner or later (I know epic raid gear qualifies as later for most of us as it seems to never drop).

Trust me some of the top players on Khyber who don't need anything from these quests still jump in the drunken raid runs from time to time. If it's not for the gear it's obviously to have fun and goof off.

You forgot to add that we rarely have any barbarians on the runs.