fun runs = fail runs?

[Kmnh]

Your statement was not about hate, but about who has the highest dps is measured by who has aggro on Horoth or etc., when in reality that is about hate..

We are arguing semantics here.

"Hey, I should be the horoth tank, I keep pulling aggro from the bosses and I have enough HP to pull it off" is a fair statement, it doesn't matter if the reason is DPS or hate. "Losing sympathy" at someone because they said that is not fair.

[Calebro]

Isn't hate what matters when picking the horoth tank?

Only for the first few seconds. After Sully drops, the tank has all friggin day to establish aggro. So assuming the Horoth tank has enough HP to last, and the healers are competent, the Horoth tank's hate really doesn't matter much. With the head start he gets, a kobold swinging a wet noodle could easily hold aggro as long as the healer(s) can keep him standing the entire time.
Hate is only needed if he dies, at which point reestablishing aggro may prove to be a problem if his hate gen is low.

Survivability is much more important than hate gen on the Horoth tank,

[grayham]

We are arguing semantics here.

"Hey, I should be the horoth tank, I keep pulling aggro from the bosses and I have enough HP to pull it off" is a fair statement, it doesn't matter if the reason is DPS or hate. "Losing sympathy" at someone because they said that is not fair.

Yep, you have a point. I didn't have much sympathy to lose though!

I think it was just the self assessment which, in the context of this thread, seemed a little too confident. I know that Killcount doesn't always equal DPS (certainly not in ToD) I think my point was that myddo or even horoth aggro is not a valid measurement of DPS.

[Eladiun]

Any melee who cannot manage their own hate to not pull agro off a designated tank is a garbage player.

[stainer]

Any melee who cannot manage their own hate to not pull agro off a designated tank is a garbage player.

This is true.

[Kmnh]

Only for the first few seconds. After Sully drops, the tank has all friggin day to establish aggro. So assuming the Horoth tank has enough HP to last, and the healers are competent, the Horoth tank's hate really doesn't matter much. With the head start he gets, a kobold swinging a wet noodle could easily hold aggro as long as the healer(s) can keep him standing the entire time.
Hate is only needed if he dies, at which point reestablishing aggro may prove to be a problem if his hate gen is low.

Survivability is much more important than hate gen on the Horoth tank,

Yup, that's usually how I pick horoth tanks on my runs. Get the one with the best hp/healing amp combination , tell the high dps beefcakes to tone down a bit until suulo drops. The pug described on the OP is skipping / kiting suulo tho

[Renvar]

Look, being a good Horoth tank actually has very little to do with hate gen and HP on normal. Most all Pallys, Barbs, and Fighters can get the requisite 600hp+ you need. More is gravy. Same with DPS/Hate Gen. All being able to "steal" agro from the tank does is stroke your e-peen and risk screwing up the raid. I like how the OP states that he's going to be the tank even if he's not selected as tank by the leader. This is not a team player attitude. You can reduce your DPS to not take agro. It's not that difficult. But it requires setting aside your ego, which seems to be the hardest piece of gear for some players to un-equip.

Besides, ToD norm is not about max-DPS. It's about controlling damage.

To that point, the most important aspects of the tank are AC, DR and Healing Amp. But max-dps builds often ignore such features because it gets in the way of their max-strength, max-damage gear. I would much rather have an SD or DoS build tanking Horoth than a Barb any day. Not that you can't get it done with the Barb. You can. But the run will be much smoother and faster with the SD/DoS build. And the extra hate gen of those builds should be able to hold agro without much trouble unless the barbs/kensai are raging and boosting and wearing incite gear.

[Tobril]

Look, being a good Horoth tank actually has very little to do with hate gen and HP on normal. Most all Pallys, Barbs, and Fighters can get the requisite 600hp+ you need. More is gravy. Same with DPS/Hate Gen. All being able to "steal" agro from the tank does is stroke your e-peen and risk screwing up the raid. I like how the OP states that he's going to be the tank even if he's not selected as tank by the leader. This is not a team player attitude. You can reduce your DPS to not take agro. It's not that difficult. But it requires setting aside your ego, which seems to be the hardest piece of gear for some players to un-equip.

Besides, ToD norm is not about max-DPS. It's about controlling damage.

To that point, the most important aspects of the tank are AC, DR and Healing Amp. But max-dps builds often ignore such features because it gets in the way of their max-strength, max-damage gear. I would much rather have an SD or DoS build tanking Horoth than a Barb any day. Not that you can't get it done with the Barb. You can. But the run will be much smoother and faster with the SD/DoS build. And the extra hate gen of those builds should be able to hold agro without much trouble unless the barbs/kensai are raging and boosting and wearing incite gear.

+1, well said.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

But it requires setting aside your ego, which seems to be the hardest piece of gear for some players to un-equip.

I love this...lol.

[maddmatt70]

Look, being a good Horoth tank actually has very little to do with hate gen and HP on normal. Most all Pallys, Barbs, and Fighters can get the requisite 600hp+ you need. More is gravy. Same with DPS/Hate Gen. All being able to "steal" agro from the tank does is stroke your e-peen and risk screwing up the raid. I like how the OP states that he's going to be the tank even if he's not selected as tank by the leader. This is not a team player attitude. You can reduce your DPS to not take agro. It's not that difficult. But it requires setting aside your ego, which seems to be the hardest piece of gear for some players to un-equip.

Besides, ToD norm is not about max-DPS. It's about controlling damage.

To that point, the most important aspects of the tank are AC, DR and Healing Amp. But max-dps builds often ignore such features because it gets in the way of their max-strength, max-damage gear. I would much rather have an SD or DoS build tanking Horoth than a Barb any day. Not that you can't get it done with the Barb. You can. But the run will be much smoother and faster with the SD/DoS build. And the extra hate gen of those builds should be able to hold agro without much trouble unless the barbs/kensai are raging and boosting and wearing incite gear.

The way I read the OP is he cared more about getting aggro then completing the raid. If he truely cared about completion he would have not swung at Horoth or just gone sword and board or whatever. The raid leader might have had other reasons for selecting someone to tank whether it is familiarity with the other person or that other person is easier to heal, but who is the OP to question that decision - somebody that cares more about his epeen then raid completions.

[Consumer]

I think you are right. You shouldn't group with those people again.

Free cliffs, I shall be forever grateful.

Yeah. That's where I lost the sympathy. How can you know this? Perhaps it's just my British sensibilities. Or perhaps it's being very sure of that myself on occasion but then getting spanked in the kill count by a ranger/monk/any class played well. Myddo'ing does not have a section for player skill.

No it's not that, I'm British as well, I'm just not ignorant of what different builds with different gear are capable of. All builds have a maximum DPS cap which they will not exceed no matter the player, they will never break that cap in a static fight. They can fluctuate below it with burst DPS but if that cap is still below my cap and I combine that with threat I have nothing to worry about.

Any melee who cannot manage their own hate to not pull agro off a designated tank is a garbage player.

Yep, I should strip half naked and and use only half my class abilities to allow someone less capable than me to tank.

The pug described on the OP is skipping / kiting suulo tho

No no, they tried to kill him first, then went to kite him, then gave up.

[maddmatt70]

Free cliffs, I shall be forever grateful.




No it's not that, I'm British as well, I'm just not ignorant of what different builds with different gear are capable of. All builds have a maximum DPS cap which they will not exceed no matter the player, they will never break that cap in a static fight. They can fluctuate below it with burst DPS but if that cap is still below my cap and I combine that with threat I have nothing to worry about.




Yep, I should strip half naked and and use only half my class abilities to allow someone less capable than me to tank.




No no, they tried to kill him first, then went to kite him, then gave up.

So you have great healing amp, damage reduction, ac, hit points? Why should you have aggro and tank Horoth? Are you a better tank then someone else?

[stainer]

No no, they tried to kill him first, then went to kite him, then gave up.

I wonder if they had you beating on Sulu how things might have been different?

[jydog100]

So you have great healing amp, damage reduction, ac, hit points? Why should you have aggro and tank Horoth? Are you a better tank then someone else?

no, he's got the super-uber-dupper tank-o-meter #202 in his gear set up and can instantly dial up every ones dps potential and see that his dps is bigger.

I need to get me one of them thingys A.S.A.P

[Calebro]

no, he's got the super-uber-dupper tank-o-meter #202 in his gear set up and can instantly dial up every ones dps potential and see that his dps is bigger.

I need to get me one of them thingys A.S.A.P

I'm not sure which part of this thread is my favorite. It's a toss up between the part where he myDDOs everyone and instantly knows exactly what kind of DPS and hate they have, and the part where he gets defensive when someone myDDOs him and then claims that myDDO doesn't show you everything.

I'm telling you, it's really a toss up at this point.

[Renvar]

Yep, I should strip half naked and and use only half my class abilities to allow someone less capable than me to tank.

Ruinhorn, being able to steal agro doesn't make you the most capable tank. Not even close. Your definition of "capable tank" is not just seriously flawed. It's flat wrong.

A capable tank has:

AC to avoid damage
DR to mitigate damage
Healing Amp to recover HP more quickly
A Levik's/Lorrik's/Madstone/Light&Darkness Shield for when needed.

Doing beastly DPS and generating a ton of agro is NOT the most important factor in being a tank. As mentioned before, players can (if they can get their massive egos in check) remove gear or GASP! stop swinging briefly to ensure agro is maintained. Maintaining agro is the aspect of Tank and Spank raid strategy that the players have the most control over. Therefore, it should rarely be a problem. Unless someone makes a mistake or something unlucky happens.

And, YES, you should remove half your gear or stop swinging or whatever you need to do to stop from pulling agro if the leader designated someone else as tank. That's called following the star and working as a team and it's what you do in a raid. And it's what gets you a completion. Rather than a post on the forums about how uber your DPS was in a failed raid run.

[Consumer]

I'm not sure which part of this thread is my favorite. It's a toss up between the part where he myDDOs everyone and instantly knows exactly what kind of DPS and hate they have, and the part where he gets defensive when someone myDDOs him and then claims that myDDO doesn't show you everything.

I'm telling you, it's really a toss up at this point.

No MyDDO is pretty great for showing you what the majority of gear someone wears is however it doesn't show you what they're in the middle of making. I know exactly where the flaws in my build are and will point them out for you if you like.

[Eladiun]

Yep, I should strip half naked and and use only half my class abilities to allow someone less capable than me to tank.

http://my.ddo.com/character/khyber/ruinhorn/

Not like there is anything to strip off...

[Calebro]

Did you just admit that your toon was less than perfect?
Who are you and how long ago did you hack Consumer's account?

[Rydin_Dirtay]

IMO I like PUGing everything but epic raids, I've pugged ~6 so far this life and have ended up leading several of them half way through the run due to weaker leadership.

Your perception of weaker leadership may not always be a correct assumption.