Tanking Paladin - Dex or Con?

[MercuryPaladin]

So, new to DDO, very much NOT new to pen and paper D&D. I know 3/5 intimately, but DDO has a whole buttload of **** - especially the Enhancements - that I don't have memorized.

I've got a 32 point build, and am going to be classing with several squishy friends. A wizard, a rogue, and a bard. This means I am the tank, and need to be a great one at that. I've taken Toughness, and will probably focus on the Shield feat line, and other such durability feats. My Enhancements will be focused on things like class and racial toughness, enhanced healing, and higher Charisma, to make myself a self-healing tank.

My determined stats, in Str/Dex/Con/Int/Wis/Cha order, are 14/10/12/10/14/16, with all advancement points into Charisma. I have 2 points left, and was wondering...

12 Dex and 12 Con, or 10 Dex and 14 Con?

DDO has many more ways to gain Max HP than P&P, so the 20 HP at level 20 won't be as drastic as in pen and paper. And saves? I'm a Cha-focused Paladin, my saves rock, so the Reflex vs. Fortitude is pretty moot. Defender of Siberys let's me raise my Max Dex Bonus from armor alot, but I don't know how high the Dex Up items in this will go, or if I'll want to wear Dex Gloves instead of Strangth Gauntlets, or if I'll be maxing Defender of Siberys as it has crazy pre-reqs in other Enhancements.

Would the 2 Dex or the 2 Con be more useful for frontline heavy tanking?

My skills, incidentally, are Intimidate, Balance, and UMD. I was also wondering if your shield gives you AC while not actively blocking, like it's SUPPOSED to, or if I have to simply choose between blocking and attacking. Which I shouldn't have to, in D&D >.<

[elraido]

Depends what type of armor you are going for and what type of shield you are using. If you use a tower shield, the best your dex mod can be is +4 (using Leviks). If you use a regular heavy shield (or epic swashbuckler), then it will be limited by your armor. With a dex score like that....you are going to be in heavy/medium armor. The best one you will find is the Epic Cavaliers plate.

When you block you get an additional bonus to the shields armor bonus. I know Leviks bonus is around 9 with a dex mod of +4. So a total ac bonus of 13 if your dex mod is +4. If activly blocking with it, then it will add another 5, give or take. 99% of the time you don't really want to be blocking though. You can't really just intim hold creatures anymore and just turtle up. With hate now being part of the equation, you need to still contribute DPS to hold that aggro.

Personally, on my main, I started with an 8 dex. I can get it up to a 21-22 self buffed (8+3 dex tome+7 item +2 yugo pot +2 ship). On yours, I would say start with the 10 and put the rest into con.

[Varashad]

First off, change your stats to something like this.

Strength: 16
Dexterity: 8
Constitution: 16
Intelligence: 10
Wisdom: 8
Charisma: 16

This will give you more hp and more damage, both of which are key to tanks. Dexterity isn't terribly important, but if you really want it go with 8 intelligence and take 10 dexterity. Wisdom is a dump stat, as is intelligence. The only reason I suggest 10 is because you would have 3 skill points to max UMD and take ranks in Balance as well.

However, fighters do the tanking job far better than paladins. Paladins excel at end game burst damage versus demons and devils. They just lack the hp to tank properly. And anyways, at lower levels, tanks are not needed. In fact, aside from about ten quests, tanks are not needed period. And in those ten quests, like seven of them can be tanked by anyone with 500+ hp.

So, anyways, to answer your question, constitution is key. Go for the hp always as armor class is worthless end game unless you can get it to 90+, which is not easy.

To the above poster; Epic Cavalry Plate, while bad ass, is not the best. Epic Denieth Chain is better, and in many situations you're better off with healing amp dragon touched giving you +60% healing amp.

[Nysrock]

First off, change your stats to something like this.

Strength: 16
Dexterity: 8
Constitution: 16
Intelligence: 10
Wisdom: 8
Charisma: 16

This will give you more hp and more damage, both of which are key to tanks. Dexterity isn't terribly important, but if you really want it go with 8 intelligence and take 10 dexterity. Wisdom is a dump stat, as is intelligence. The only reason I suggest 10 is because you would have 3 skill points to max UMD and take ranks in Balance as well.

However, fighters do the tanking job far better than paladins. Paladins excel at end game burst damage versus demons and devils. They just lack the hp to tank properly. And anyways, at lower levels, tanks are not needed. In fact, aside from about ten quests, tanks are not needed period. And in those ten quests, like seven of them can be tanked by anyone with 500+ hp.

So, anyways, to answer your question, constitution is key. Go for the hp always as armor class is worthless end game unless you can get it to 90+, which is not easy.

^This^

More Str and Con will beat Dex on your tank build any day.

[elraido]

To the above poster; Epic Cavalry Plate, while bad ass, is not the best. Epic Denieth Chain is better, and in many situations you're better off with healing amp dragon touched giving you +60% healing amp.

I didn't even notice that the wisdom was that high. On paladins, that is a dump stat. Drop it to 8. All you will need is a +6 item later on to cast your level 4 spells. I did that when I first played as well, thinking it was going to be more like PnP. Then again, you did need a 14 non modified score to cast.

Epic Cavalry Plate is 16 ac and 3 dex bonus. Epic Deneith Chain is 15 ac and 1 dex. Tanks need AC...the plate provides the best....being tied with epic red dragon. Not only that but it also provides more hp, same dr value, same blue slot, hp generation struck while in melee, and a resistance. The only thing the D chain provides is an empty colorless slot....while giving less ac.

Healing amp is also not an issue if he is going with an ac build...and once again, the dragontouched armor only gives 15 ac and 1 dex.

And fighters don't always tank better than paladins....not only that, but paladins are also fine on HP. I can hit 800 just fine on my paladin and I didn't even come close to trying to maximize it.

Also, AC isn't that hard to go for if you put a little time in to it. It is no harder than a barb trying to go for full ****** dps numbers.

[unbongwah]

First off, I agree that fighter tanks are easier to put together than pally tanks for first-timers; partly because of all the extra feats they get, partly because they don't have to worry so much about WIS or CHA so they can focus on their other stats.

I also agree that on a pally you should dump-stat WIS; too many other stats demand pts put into them and are more important. You just need a suitable +WIS item to cast spells.

Third, I'd say don't worry too much about AC, because it takes a lot of gear to have good AC past about lvl 12 or so; instead, focus more on dmg mitigation via the shield feats, threat boosts to hold aggro, and a goodly number of HPs.

Finally, you might want to do a pally / ftr tank like this dwarf rogue 2 / ftr 12 / pally 6 I posted recently; it sacrifices the DPS & AC of a pure ftr or pally for greater versatility & survivability.

[DragonTroy]

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...ht=dark+knight

it does go over some things a new player may not understand, but this is an incredible build that i would suggest

[Diyon]

I didn't even notice that the wisdom was that high. On paladins, that is a dump stat. Drop it to 8. All you will need is a +6 item later on to cast your level 4 spells. I did that when I first played as well, thinking it was going to be more like PnP. Then again, you did need a 14 non modified score to cast.

Actually in 3.5e pnp, the casting stat didn't have to be non modified. You could meet whatever you needed via items or spells if you so wished, even for taking feats (note, if you did use something like that for taking a feat, if you stat ever dropped back down that feat and anything dependent on it became non-functioning).

[elraido]

http://my.ddo.com/character/sarlona/burne/

How many of those items are hard to get or "true" epic items that effect ac? A little bit of grinding is needed for the ToD set (like EVERY other class out there), the chattering ring (now there will be 2-3 items out there with +3 dodge on them, so this isn't the only one). That is it. Take out the Epic cloak of night, put in the leviks bracers or chaos guards.

It isn't that hard to get a decent ac in this game...and that isn't even his max self buffed ac being shown. I can get it up to around 85.

[MercuryPaladin]

I.... am extremely disinclined to dump WIS.

I don't dump stats. It's silly. You don't need to be the most uber god character possible to enjoy the game, right? And why take up my Amulet slot with yet another +6 Item. Is that all you ever do? +6 stat items in every single slot? Where is the fun in that?

It's nice to know that I could just do that and get all my spells but really, I don't like the idea that if I fail to find a specific item or remove it, I'll lose my ability to cast spells.

Are you guys seriously saying a tiny bit of extra attack and HP is worth all my spells?

Also, I don't really care what fighters get I want to play a Paladin, and I really never liked the practice of stat dumping. So is this really necessary? Or will I be able to get by the game just fine with the stat allotment of 14/10/14/10/14/16? If it will do the job I'd rather not see those ugly 8s.

[Zirun]

I.... am extremely disinclined to dump WIS.

I don't dump stats. It's silly. You don't need to be the most uber god character possible to enjoy the game, right? And why take up my Amulet slot with yet another +6 Item. Is that all you ever do? +6 stat items in every single slot? Where is the fun in that?

It's nice to know that I could just do that and get all my spells but really, I don't like the idea that if I fail to find a specific item or remove it, I'll lose my ability to cast spells.

Are you guys seriously saying a tiny bit of extra attack and HP is worth all my spells?

Also, I don't really care what fighters get I want to play a Paladin, and I really never liked the practice of stat dumping. So is this really necessary? Or will I be able to get by the game just fine with the stat allotment of 14/10/14/10/14/16? If it will do the job I'd rather not see those ugly 8s.

People on the forums will almost always tell you "the best" way to do things. The most powerful, the most efficient, the most cost-effective, the fastest, the highest number. Forum-goers are generally the best-informed people, and there's a reason they're the best-informed (hint: it's because they want to be the best [like no-one ever was]).

If you don't care about "the best", then do whatever you want. So long as you're not making a pure Wizard with 8 Intelligence or a Halfling Barbarian with 6 Strength, it's pretty hard to make something that won't, at the very least, get through the game. You might have some trouble with harder quests on higher difficulties, and you'll inevitably have to face the sneers of derision from your e-superiors, but you won't be dying every 2 seconds trying to defend Haverdasher on Casual.

So go ahead and have 14 Wisdom. Just realize that that's not really in "optimal"'s neighbourhood. If you're fine with the occasional person taking a game too seriously, then you won't have a problem. Just remember that this is a game, you are the one playing, and it's your character, and if other people don't like it, they can shove it up their decline button!

[Khellendros13]

I.... am extremely disinclined to dump WIS.

I don't dump stats. It's silly. You don't need to be the most uber god character possible to enjoy the game, right? And why take up my Amulet slot with yet another +6 Item. Is that all you ever do? +6 stat items in every single slot? Where is the fun in that?

It's nice to know that I could just do that and get all my spells but really, I don't like the idea that if I fail to find a specific item or remove it, I'll lose my ability to cast spells.

Are you guys seriously saying a tiny bit of extra attack and HP is worth all my spells?

Also, I don't really care what fighters get I want to play a Paladin, and I really never liked the practice of stat dumping. So is this really necessary? Or will I be able to get by the game just fine with the stat allotment of 14/10/14/10/14/16? If it will do the job I'd rather not see those ugly 8s.

This is not PnP. Wasting points in Wisdom if you are not shooting for ac with a Monk splash is only hurting your own fun really. It means you have to have less hp or str, and missing and dying are not fun.

You can cast Owl's Wisdom at the start of a quest with an item on then swap it out for whatever you like, until you have a +2 wis tome and something like Kyoshos Ring ( part of a nice DPS set for any melee which has +6 wis, +1 exceptional str).

Paladins are very tight on stats, feats and AP's. Don't make it harder.

[wax_on_wax_off]

When making characters I usually start with the places that I want 6 point investments, like you have done, strength, constitution, charisma are the real priorities. Then you have 14 points left and you've put 4 of those into charisma.

Honestly, as a tanking build that +1 modifier for 4 build points isn't going to give you a whole lot; I'd generally only recommend to go that extra bit if you are a TWF'ing build in which case you will benefit much more from qualifying for DMIII/IV (with tomes).

As a tanking build, you should definitely consider if you want to put points into dexterity and intelligence. Firstly, you should decide if you want to be an AC tank or a DR tank. AC tanks will shine more while leveling but in the end game either your AC won't matter (epics) or it will only matter if you get ridiculous levels of gear that is expensive and time consuming to get. AC paladin tanks can either be sword and board or monk splashed (which might fit in with your desire for wisdom). DR tanks give AC the finger and just try to maximise HP and DR through the use of shield mastery feats and a tower shield; these builds are slightly better in epics than sword and board AC tanks (who, even though they will have the same DR will usually have slightly lower hate generation and HP).

Presuming that the leveling process is more important to you than the end game then I can suggest that an AC tank will be more what you are looking for. Even still, you will want to pull out a big Two Handed weapon (preferably a falchion due to the way this weapon interacts with your class abilities) and go to town. Honestly, as far as optimal and efficient goes there is only about 5% of the game where sword'n'board tanking is actually valuable. When you are tanking you should still be able to do good damage with a bastard sword and the full two handed fighting feats (which apply to bastard swords when wielded with a shield).

In the end, if you aren't generating the hate through doing damage then you aren't tanking well enough. This is where strength (and charisma for DM) is important as each modifier will be increased by up to 4x by your hate generation which will in turn allow your entire party to do that amount of additional damage without pulling aggro off you (4 damage *9 damaging raid members (assuming 2 healers)=36 damage/hit which is about 70-100 raid DPS). On top of this, many enemies on harder difficulties have quite high AC and if you are even only missing on a 2 then it can drastically affect your ability to hold aggro.

Anyway, sorry for getting side tracked. Back to initial stat allocation for a Sword'n'Board AC tank. Starting with 8 base dexterity won't let you fill out the MDB (max dex bonus) on better armours that you will definitely want to wear, realistically, 14 is a better choice if AC is your goal (which is really useful while leveling and in much of the end game). Starting with 8 or 10 intelligence will give you 2 or 3 skills at max ranks as a human, this is enough for intimidate, balance and UMD which are the crucial ones for a tank (UMD is just great for a paladin in general). However, starting with enough intelligence to get to 13 after a tome (10+3 tome, 11+2 tome, 12+1 tome) will let you qualify for Combat Expertise which is a crucial stance for an AC build and give you more options with skills (concentration is a good one so that you can self heal in most content without having to use extra spell points on quicken).

So, taking all that into account, on a 32 point, human paladin with the goal of Sword'n'Board AC tanking I would go something like this (assuming +2 tomes): 16 str, 14 dex, 14 con, 11 int, 9 wis, 14 cha.

I can't find the build that I would follow at the moment but it basically goes 18 paladin / 2 fighter to fit in all of the dragonmarks of sentinel for [/url=http://ddowiki.com/page/Epic_Chimera%27s_Fang]this[/url] weapon (primarily). Full THF'ing feats, Maximise Spell, Quicken Spell, Power Attack and Combat Expertise and I think you're done (not sure if I missed anything crucial).

Sorry to go over the top in my typing, I hope it helps.

[Varashad]

I.... am extremely disinclined to dump WIS.

I don't dump stats. It's silly. You don't need to be the most uber god character possible to enjoy the game, right? And why take up my Amulet slot with yet another +6 Item. Is that all you ever do? +6 stat items in every single slot? Where is the fun in that?

It's nice to know that I could just do that and get all my spells but really, I don't like the idea that if I fail to find a specific item or remove it, I'll lose my ability to cast spells.

Are you guys seriously saying a tiny bit of extra attack and HP is worth all my spells?

Also, I don't really care what fighters get I want to play a Paladin, and I really never liked the practice of stat dumping. So is this really necessary? Or will I be able to get by the game just fine with the stat allotment of 14/10/14/10/14/16? If it will do the job I'd rather not see those ugly 8s.

We're simply trying to give the best advice we can from a number crunching perspective. By all means, your build will suffice for lower levels. However, the lack of high strength and constitution does hurt the tank. I HIGHLY recommend you try to get both to at least sixteen, but you have every right to set your stats as you please.

So, is it necessary? Not for low level content and high level content on normal. But, if you want to be a true tank, then you absolutely need higher con and strength. It's just not negotiable. The boss monsters at higher levels are **** near indestructible without proper planning, and your build won't be able to hold it's aggression without doing maximum damage.

[Varashad]

I.... am extremely disinclined to dump WIS.

I don't dump stats. It's silly. You don't need to be the most uber god character possible to enjoy the game, right? And why take up my Amulet slot with yet another +6 Item. Is that all you ever do? +6 stat items in every single slot? Where is the fun in that?

It's nice to know that I could just do that and get all my spells but really, I don't like the idea that if I fail to find a specific item or remove it, I'll lose my ability to cast spells.

Are you guys seriously saying a tiny bit of extra attack and HP is worth all my spells?

Also, I don't really care what fighters get I want to play a Paladin, and I really never liked the practice of stat dumping. So is this really necessary? Or will I be able to get by the game just fine with the stat allotment of 14/10/14/10/14/16? If it will do the job I'd rather not see those ugly 8s.

We're simply trying to give the best advice we can from a number crunching perspective. By all means, your build will suffice for lower levels. However, the lack of high strength and constitution does hurt the tank. I HIGHLY recommend you try to get both to at least sixteen, but you have every right to set your stats as you please.

So, is it necessary? Not for low level content and high level content on normal. But, if you want to be a true tank, then you absolutely need higher con and strength. It's just not negotiable. The boss monsters at higher levels are **** near indestructible without proper planning, and your build won't be able to hold it's aggression without doing maximum damage.

Epic Cavalry Plate is 16 ac and 3 dex bonus. Epic Deneith Chain is 15 ac and 1 dex. Tanks need AC...the plate provides the best....being tied with epic red dragon. Not only that but it also provides more hp, same dr value, same blue slot, hp generation struck while in melee, and a resistance. The only thing the D chain provides is an empty colorless slot....while giving less ac.

Healing amp is also not an issue if he is going with an ac build...and once again, the dragontouched armor only gives 15 ac and 1 dex.

And fighters don't always tank better than paladins....not only that, but paladins are also fine on HP. I can hit 800 just fine on my paladin and I didn't even come close to trying to maximize it.

Also, AC isn't that hard to go for if you put a little time in to it. It is no harder than a barb trying to go for full ****** dps numbers.

Tanks do not need AC. Go and fight Epic Lord of Blades with an AC of 95. You will die. Go and fight elite Horoth with 95 AC. He will kill you. The ECP has Demonic Shield which procs far less often than Life Shield. +30 temporary hit points is ALWAYS better than +4 AC which doesn't help.

Healing amp is ALWAYS an issue. 60% healing amp means spells are 60% more effective. That cure moderate wounds spell that healed you for 100 will heal 160 hp with healing amp. It matters. It cannot be ignored. Tanks need healing amp over DR.

Your paladin is one of the few who does that. I have a feeling he is also fully geared out in epics, which is totally acceptable. However, a fighter, geared out the same way, will have 150 more hp than you. Maybe more.

Also, Barbarians and damage are easy to raise. Give him a +5 great axe, +6 strength and con items, and heavy fort, let him rage, frenzy and death frenzy, and he's good for damage. The rest is just gravy. For AC, lacking ONE item for your AC spells ruin and death for that AC tank.

[Diyon]

Healing amp is ALWAYS an issue. 60% healing amp means spells are 60% more effective. That cure moderate wounds spell that healed you for 100 will heal 160 hp with healing amp. It matters. It cannot be ignored. Tanks need healing amp over DR.

I get the feeling you got amp wrong here (please correct me if I did not). It looks like when you say "60%" you're meaning a 10%, 20%, and 30% item. This does not equal 160% (or 60% more healing) amp. It actually equals 171.6%, or 71.6% more healing. The amp is calculated by multiplication 1 (base) * 1.1 (10% amp) * 1.2 (20% amp) * 1.3 (30% amp) = 1.716, or 171.6%.

[Enoach]

DoS MDB modifier

Tier I +1 to MDB for Tower Shield
Tier II +1 Additional MDB for Tower Shield (total is +2), +1 MDB to Heavy Armor
Tier III +1 Additional MDB for Tower Shield (total is +3), +1 Additional for Heavy Armor (total is +2), +1 MDB to Medium Armor

With all Three Tiers
Tower Shields now have +3 More MDB
Heavy Armor now has +2 More MDB
Medium Armor now has +1 More MDB

Taking the Leviks Shield (base +4 MDB) and Epic Cavalry Plate (Medium +3 MDB)

Add in the DoS bonus

Leviks Shield has MDB of 7
Epic Cavalry Plate had MDB of 4 <- Add Greater Nimble to the Epic Slot and it goes to 6

Goal of any tank is to have enough DEX Bonus to Fill out the MDB

With the above you will need 22 DEX (base+tome+enchantments) to max this feature

Dwarves, Fighters and Half-Elves w/Fighter Dil. can increase the Max Dex Bonus further.

Reported in U12 is the change to the Mobility Feat that will also increase the MDB of Shield/Armor

============================================
My point is 8 Base + 2 Tome + 6 Enchant + 3 Exceptional + 2 Ship = 21

without a +3 Tome, Store Potions, House D Potions or an Epic +7 item you will always be leaving 1 point of potential AC. More if you invest in Enhancements/Feat to improve MDB.

Plan your Dex based on filling out the Armor you plan to use and what you reasonably believe you will have when you go tanking...

[karl_k0ch]

A lot of good advice here already, I'd like to emphasise one of the basic ones:

Paladins are very tight on stats, feats and AP's. Don't make it harder.

and add the following remarks:
Try to get at least 14 Con.
AC paladin tanks are hard to put together.
It's OK to dump Wis.
If you have some time, have a look at Junts' Guide.