DoS Shield Feats

[JOTMON]

You are forgetting about the UMD ability of most paladins. Heal scrolls, UMD bypass on equipment, Masters touch scrolls to use Tower Shields, Atry scrolls for 1d6 points of elemental damage and another for +1 to AC....able to add silver or cold iron to any weapon. Etc.

Weak argument for Paladin benefit.
Fighter has same access to UMD as a paladin.
They just usually chose not to invest in CHA for UMD and invest more to str or con.
Fighters also have the feat room to take UMD+3 if they really wanted to.
Arty Scrolls have had their UMD levelboosted so most are in the UMD40 range.
Trying to UMD with no concentration while you are tanking is not overly usefull.

As skill points go Paladin and Fighter only get 2 per level + Int Bonus.
Assume 11 start for CE and a +2 tome puts both at 13 possibly 14 for 1-2 more points invested in a cross class skill. Maybe 1 more if human. so average of 4 skill points per level.
Class skills, Fighter - Intimidate/Jump ,Paladin - Intimidate
All other usable skills are cross class - Balance/Jump/UMD.

Not a lot of room for UMD investing without significant gear swapping and only really viable at cap.
Using UMD would only be usefull if splashing a couple rogue levels.

[Tsuarok]

You are forgetting about the UMD ability of most paladins. Heal scrolls, UMD bypass on equipment, Masters touch scrolls to use Tower Shields, Atry scrolls for 1d6 points of elemental damage and another for +1 to AC....able to add silver or cold iron to any weapon. Etc.

I wouldn't exactly say forgetting. UMD is not a class skill, and while the increase in cha that paladins should have over fighters does help, most will start with a 14 - 16 cha, giving +3-4 over your 8 cha fighter. If you have the AP (and as paladin, you don't) you can squeeze another +2 cha in for an additional +1 UMD. As Jotmon noted fighters have enough feats to grab SF: UMD, so that puts our paladin at a +0 to +2 UMD advantage over the fighter. Not too much really.

[sephiroth1084]

I wouldn't exactly say forgetting. UMD is not a class skill, and while the increase in cha that paladins should have over fighters does help, most will start with a 14 - 16 cha, giving +3-4 over your 8 cha fighter. If you have the AP (and as paladin, you don't) you can squeeze another +2 cha in for an additional +1 UMD. As Jotmon noted fighters have enough feats to grab SF: UMD, so that puts our paladin at a +0 to +2 UMD advantage over the fighter. Not too much really.

And a SD has a bit of incentive to be upping their Cha as well, for Intimidate, so the difference may not be even that big.

[CanuckWisdom]

In general response to the thread (coming from someone who plays paladin and fighter both, but loves pally more, so perhaps a bias), I don't know about adding feats to DoS (if so, shield bash would be best/most reasonable of the options discussed) or any other replacement benefit,

but I STRONGLY agree that Protection against evil and shield of faith DoS abilities are laughably useless. Its been stated, but, Paladins (and other classes your likely grouped with) can not only already cast these spells (which dont have much competition for those spell slots), but also get items (protection, which a tank will almost gauranteed have) that do the exact same thing without having to be cast/chance to be dispelled.

Its pretty rediculous. Replace those abilities with something that can be used, even a little.

Maybe combat expertise as the free feat. It seems like a powerful feat to give free, but at the same time, how many paladins can afford 13 int? And SD already seems more shield oriented, so why not give paladins something that can work for TWF or THF.


Another thought; if your going to compare classes as well as PrE's, to claim that the paladin gets +cha to saves is correct, but what about the extra strength/con that the fighter has because they didnt have to spend on charisma? How much +attack and +dmg is that? What about wisdom? Paladins need to either spend on wisdom or use an item to cover +6 wis, a slot you could argue a fighter can use elsewhere. These arguments, while true, I do acknowledge are getting into the difficult to weigh and compare area.