I see people praise their wizard/monk 18/2 builds...

[Disturbed_Whisper]

what makes them better than pure wizard, and at what levels would I take the first monk level at.

I like the arcane casters here, but just can't seem to get into it, since I favor melee more, so how would this build help me get into the mage class?

and why wizard over sorc?

[sebastianosmith]

Mostly it's for Evasion and two extra feats. While monks splashes can melee, they are never going to be good at it.

Wizard over Sorc? - Pale Master.

The monk levels are usually taken at 2 and somewhere around 10. It all depends on when you want the evasion and extra feats. Combat Expertise - a martial feat - meshes well with those who stand in the back and nuke things.

[Jendrak]

Ok first off, if your just "getting into the Mage classes" I would suggest a few things first.

1) decide what appeals to you more massive damage (sorc) or crowd control/insta kills (wizzy).
2) I would suggest sticking with a pure build for a first attempt to get a feel for what the base class strengths and weaknesses are. This will allow you to better decide what fits your playstlye more (pure vs. multiclass)
3) check out some builds here on the forums and see if you can find a template that suits your goal.

Now, if you really wanna do the wizzy/monk I would suggest getting both your monk levels before you get ready to run vale (14-16) cause this is when it really starts to shine. You could also do them before gianthold (12-13) but this is a little early IMO since there isn't any traps you cant avoid, aside from crucible, and AoE dmg isn't as prevelant either.

[Delt]

Having not looked into at all, I'm not sure I understand the benefit of a 2 monk splash. Unless you are looking for some feats to boost melee ability... I mean, as it relates to casting, I don't see how any 2 feats would surpass the final 2 wiz levels.

2 rogue I get, as you are expanding your versatility, meshing with the INT stat and picking up evasion all at the expense of a little casting power.

But monk I don't get. Again though, I've never really looked into it.

Combat Expertise - a martial feat - meshes well with those who stand in the back and nuke things.

I don't get this either...why would CE "mesh well"? Why would a nuker need AC? And correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't CE completely gimp your SP cost when active.

I dunno, maybe they changed something and I'm not informed yet -- I haven't played much the last year.

[sebastianosmith]

But monk I don't get. Again though, I've never really looked into it.

If your character can stay centered it will get a slight AC bump, and Evasion, and Combat Expertise, and one of a +2 fort, reflex or will save. It's not epic but every bit helps.

[slimkj]

The way I saw it (and quite liked it as a f.avour build) when I played with one on Lam, was that you give up traps etc. for more hardiness. I was tinkering with a WF 18/2 PM, Taking one of the Toughness as a martial arts feat to allow room for Insighful Reflexes, and another Toughness with the other martial arts feat just for moar HP.

It wasted a bit of SP on multiple casts to get things to stick from time to time, of course, but it also felt pretty indestructable. Definitely something I plan to add to the stable for fun once all the other casters are done.

[sebastianosmith]

I don't get this either...why would CE "mesh well"? Why would a nuker need AC? And correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't CE completely gimp your SP cost when active.

Yes, your SP cost is going to double but that's better than getting made into a pin cusion or totally beaten to death with a single blow. It's more of an "Oh SH!T" sort of move that can save your life.

[Hobgoblin]

If your character can stay centered it will get a slight AC bump, and Evasion, and Combat Expertise, and one of a +2 fort, reflex or will save. It's not epic but every bit helps.

evasion yes. evasion good!

ac..... not so much!

as delt says the sp cost makes it very hard to nuke etc

the other advantage that monk splash has over rogue splash is that you dont have to take a monk level first and you can take toughness as a monk feat.

hob

[Djeserit]

I prefer my Gish WF 18wiz/2mnk PM over all other caster builds I've tried (and I've tried quite a few).

The build is very versatile, can solo material that would stop many a caster or melee. It's very efficient on the mana side.

It can fill all the normal caster rolls (up to epic).

The DPS isn't uber, but combined with firewalls, necro bolts, DOTs and other magic, it's very efficient.
Edit: melee isn't just about DPS, you are healing yourself with every hit, doing stat damage, debuffing, etc. I often partner with a rogue, so it's about holding aggro too.

Some of my friends prefer a deeper splash with fighter to pump the dps, but personally I think you give up too much.

Evasion has been mentioned, but I would also point out stealth. Stealth tactics are great on these types.

The crowd control is not good enough for epic, so you do sacrifice something.

I used to be an altaholic. I deleted all my casters save one. This is the one I kept.

[Feithlin]

Why splashing?
Both Rogue 2 or Monk 2 are taken principaly for Evasion which, in conjunction with Insightful reflexes (bases Ref save on Int instead of Dex) can add a lot of survivability.
This comes at the expense of some spell points (2 less wiz levels), 1 DC (loose the wiz capstone) and 2 spell penetration (2 less wiz levels).
Evasion is certainly a good thing, but it's your call to evaluate if it's better or not than what you loose. It will also depend what you'll run at cap. If you plan to do epics, the loss of DC and spell pen may hurt. Splashing with 1 or more Wiz PL allows to compensate these losses though.

Rogue or Monk?
Since both provide Evasion, let's look at the other benefits.
* Rogue splash provides trap skills (you will basically beat any non mecanics on trap skills, easily enough for the traps of the game), full UMD (this opens the possibility to use divine scrolls like Resurrection or Heal, good if you're not WF or PM or want to self heal outside of your form).
* Monk splash provides 2 feats, including Toughness, which allows to offset the loss of a wizard feat, since you'll take Toughness as a monk bonus feat instead of one of your general feats. The 2nd feat is usually a 2nd Toughness afaik, for 20 more HP. If your weapons are monk weapons (staff, kamas, but not scepters), you can also go into Earth stance for an additional +2 Con. A nice plus is the ability to melee a bit, but it's hardly more than a plus without the TWF line (even if you were taking TWF as your 2nd monk feat, this will stay very limited, and I don't advice to use your remaining feats to boost your melee: spell casting is just plain better).

Hope it'll help.

[FuzzyDuck81]

Pretty much stated above.. pure wiz is about being the best possible at casting, the 2 level splash is for someone who doesnt mind losing out on raw casting power in favour of greater survivability & versatility.

For epic (and very high level on elite) crowd control & instakills, i'd choose a pure wizzy, but for anything less than that having that extra versatility from the splash will often be more valuable.

[Galeria]

For leveling, being a pale monkster is really fun. You don't have to stand idly by shifting from one foot to the other waiting for a shrine to come up when out of sp...

Palemaster enhancements give you unarmed damage bonuses, divine power clickies can raise your BAB and the +6 wisdom on con opp items helps your AC through the mid levels (if you are on a TR character.)

While the DPS isn't uber, it's enough. My pale monk is often the last one standing in a party because unless you forget to self heal, you are very hard to kill. I'm playing my fire-specced pale monk instead of my cleric in Mabar because it's a lot more fun.

For epics, you probably want to LR out the monk levels and max things that boost your DC's... or TR and play it again.

I tend to take my first monk level at 1 so that I can melee through the lower levels, then the second monk level sometime after getting Wall of Fire.

[Darknark]

Having not looked into at all, I'm not sure I understand the benefit of a 2 monk splash. Unless you are looking for some feats to boost melee ability... I mean, as it relates to casting, I don't see how any 2 feats would surpass the final 2 wiz levels.

2 rogue I get, as you are expanding your versatility, meshing with the INT stat and picking up evasion all at the expense of a little casting power.




.

Two toughness feats (44hp) [or something else........] and mountain stance (20hp), tortoise enhance (5hp), evasion. Potential for melee ability.
instead of
1 DC, 1 Feat (from wizzy list), 2 spell pen.

Oh and you get forced to be lawful.


I can't see a caster ever wanting AC.... if you get enough AC to stop 95% of the hits, you essentially make your torc 95% less useful.

and iirc, CE is beyond useless for a caster (making spells cost more to cast, and giving you AC that is either useless or [if you have enough] reduces sp regen)

[gloopygloop]

If your character can stay centered it will get a slight AC bump, and Evasion, and Combat Expertise, and one of a +2 fort, reflex or will save. It's not epic but every bit helps.

When you have "enough" Reflex save, Evasion is amazing.
When you have "enough" AC, then AC is also amazing.

It is much easier to get "enough" Reflex save on a Wizard that has access to Insightful Reflexes and various spells/items that increase Reflex saves than it is to get "enough" AC on a Wizard (even when that Wizard has Monk levels to signficantly boost AC).

That is even more true in Epic quests/raids when "enough" AC appears to be somewhere between 80 and 110.

[sebastianosmith]

When you have "enough" Reflex save, Evasion is amazing.
When you have "enough" AC, then AC is also amazing.

It is much easier to get "enough" Reflex save on a Wizard that has access to Insightful Reflexes and various spells/items that increase Reflex saves than it is to get "enough" AC on a Wizard (even when that Wizard has Monk levels to signficantly boost AC).

That is even more true in Epic quests/raids when "enough" AC appears to be somewhere between 80 and 110.

I assume you are attempting to deride my statement, yet you offered no evidence to counter it. Your opinion is noted.

[Gadget2775]

I assume you are attempting to deride my statement, yet you offered no evidence to counter it. Your opinion is noted.

Getting enough AC to be usefull on a Tank takes a lot of gear. Getting the same AC on a caster is even more difficult. (Not impossible, by any means, but more difficult). Not going to list all the gear needed, check for evasion tank builds like this one; http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...hlight=emerald
stats needed, Dex, Con, Wis, Intand probably some Str for carry capacity



Reflex save...Wiz w/Insightfull reflex
Stats...Dex and Con (maybe a splash of Str to increase load capacity)
15: 40 Int, fairly standard these days
06: Wizzy levels
03: Monk levels
04: Resistance item
04: Greater Heroism
02: Water Stance
---------------------------
34 Reflex without outside help or special gear

[gloopygloop]

I assume you are attempting to deride my statement, yet you offered no evidence to counter it. Your opinion is noted.

I wasn't trying to deride your statement. Just trying to explain why people tend to value Evasion while not putting much value in AC.

When you are fighting regular enemies that have a To Hit of 80 or more, then any AC of less than 80 might as well be 0 because of the way that the d20 mechanic for To Hit works in DDO. In addition, DDO added an effect that makes you get hit fairly often on Elite and Epic even if your enemies can only "hit" you on a roll of 20. That makes AC even less meaningful at high levels and on higher difficulties.
http://ddowiki.com/page/Grazing_Hit

If you are facing enemies that have spells and abilities that target your Reflex save and those spells or abilities have a DC of 40, then any character that has a Reflex save under 20 might as well not have Evasion and any character that has a Reflex save of 39 or higher is only going to take damage on a 1.

It is much easier to get a Reflex save of 40+ than it is to get an AC of 80+.

Wizard 18/Monk 2

Wizard levels +6
Monk levels +2
Insightful Reflexes with a 40 Int +15
Greater Heroism +4
Good Luck +2
Resist +5
Total: 34 self buffed with no investment into reflex-specific boosting items

Xoriat reflex boost: replace the +5 Resist with +10
Holy Aura: +4
That takes you to 43 Reflex with one gear swap and one easily sustainable spell from a friendly Cleric or FvS.

Good luck getting to AC 80+ on a Wizard without absoultely rediculous gear even with the Monk splash.

[Gadget2775]

Monk levels +2

Minor detail, 2 levels of Monk should provide +3. :-)

[gloopygloop]

Minor detail, 2 levels of Monk should provide +3. :-)

Doh. I even checked to make sure and then I typed the wrong number even after I looked at the +3 on the chart.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Well, Evasion "is" the best feat in the game. Plus you get two more feats with Mnk2.

But... I prefer my Wiz20 build. DC's are very important and the capstone give you higher DCs.

I have made a few Wiz/Mnk2 builds. I liek Shadow Mage builds and Mnk has Hide/Ms as class skills. Plus if you take Mnk at lvl 1 you get some more skill points. (but that first lvl of being an Int based Mnk sure is difficult...lol )

I also see potential for melee Wizard builds using Mnk2.

Mnk2 does have it uses.

But....
My Wiz 20 has Insightful Ref and half damage from Ref savable stuff ain't bad at all.
My Wizard is hardly squishy, and with resists, prots and fireshield, many of the spells I would want Evasion for can be greatly reduced against a Wizard.

IMO, a Wizard needs Evasion less than any other char.

Wizards also get free spell feats. So they are not a feat starved class. I couldn't get everything I wanted on my Wiz20, but I'm pretty satisfied with her.

And I have been frustrated with the mnk2 builds... they just seem like weak casters for their lvl IMO.
I have two sitting at lvl 10 that I haven't played in a long time now.
Yet my Wiz20 is one of my favorite toons to play.

And the Shadow Mage thing...... my Wiz20 uses Wraithform to become the stealthiest of all of my chars...... 11ranks is fine, I don't need 23.

And if you have seen all of those end game LFMs.....for a single Wizard with 40+ DCs.... well... very hard to get those DCs. Harder on a Mnk2 build.

Anyway.... many reasons why I prefer the Wiz20.