Give Monsters Cooldowns!

[Xenostrata]

There is some serious imbalance in the game, and a lot of it is due to the fact that many NPC effects are either completely ignorable or ridiculously difficult. Some classes will be immune to effects that plague others, due to class abilities or general mobility and game mechanics. So, I thought it might be time to add some balance to what the monsters can do.

• Stunning Blow/Severe Stunning Blow. If you ever have a low fortitude toon in ePartycrashers that gets within range of the boss by the bathroom, you'll quickly learn that once you have his agro you are dead unless someone else can grab it. That tiefling strong man spams Severe Stunning Blow about once every other seconds, and because it's duration far exceeds that it will generally cause you to be perma-stunned. Suggested Cooldown Time: 15 seconds, sames as for PCs.
• Earthgrab. Come u12, there will be no way to block earthgrab (FoM no longer protects against it and WF aren't granted immunity). Given that every other earth elemental attack is an earth grab, pretty much any low reflex save character that incurs the wrath of the elemental is screwed. Suggested Cooldown Time: 12 seconds. Not so long that the earthgrab isn't dangerous, but not so ridiculously overused either. Hidden benefit is that kiting earth elementals won't be so incredibly easy any more.
• Improved Trip/Trip. Like Stunning Blow, fighting monsters with the ability to trip on a character with a low save is incredibly annoying. Not only do trips not use Saves (or balance, which they really should), but pretty much anything with 4 legs will keep a character constantly on their back. Suggested Cooldown Time: 10 seconds for IT, 15 for Trip. Same as PC trips. And/or allow the Balance skill to be incorporated into the roll to avoid being tripped; being balanced means being able to avoid falling, not being able to get back up quickly.
• Overrun. This effect is so annoying that people end up using cheap tactics to avoid it. Any time a monster capable of Overrun moves where you are, you will have to make a huge number of consecutive saves to avoid being knocked over. Because this ability is passive, I'm not suggesting a cooldown on it. However, I would suggest that on a successful save you become immune to overrun from that monster for the next 15 seconds.
• Air Elemental Knockback. Also an incredibly annoying effect, especially since it has no save. The air elemental trip effect should be tied to the new Overrun, but the Knockback should be given a 20 second cooldown to avoid spamming all over the place.
• Burrow/Phase. Another excruciatingly annoying skill monsters have, especially for people with limited resources, since the npc will invariably vanish just as you cast your DoT, causing you to lose SP and whatever you have stacked. This is much worse on ghosts, but both of them should have a minimum cooldown of 10 seconds. At the moment, ghosts will generally spend more time out of phase than in phase.

Feel free to suggest your own, I'm sure I missed some.

[Zarquine]

• Earthgrab. Come u12, there will be no way to block earthgrab (FoM no longer protects against it and WF aren't granted immunity).

Can somebody please confirm this?

The Lamania release notes for U12 (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=206066) just say:

Earthgrab

• Earthgrab is no longer considered a paralysis effect. Creatures with immunity to paralysis are no longer immune, and spells or effects that cure paralaysis no longer cure Earthgrab.

And Freedom of Movement's description says:

This spell enables an ally to move and attack normally for the duration of the spell, even under the influence of magic or conditions that normally impedes movement, such as Entangled, Paralyzed, or Solid Fog.

I always thought Earth Grab is an entangling effect, not a paralyzing one...

For the rest of the OP I mostly agree. Being tripped several times in a row on a character with not many skill points is not funny. Same goes for Overrun.

And the constantly phasing ghosts are really frustrating.

[Delssar]

/signed

Im sick of constant animal trip spams

trip
getting up from trip
instant trip again

ALL MY HATE


and they need to fix scorps, When I play on my AA in the Vale I use a paralyzer. I can paralyze them and they burrow and move when they are paralyzed. Its REALLY annoying

[Xenostrata]

Just tested on Lammania. My Warforged FvS played around with some earth elementals. He got earthgrabbed, then I cast FoM, and then he got earthgrabbed some more.



So WF are no longer immune (which never really made much sense anyway) but FoM also doesn't prevent the effect.

Confirmed, unfortunately.

[MeliCat]

Drat. My clerics are all totally stuffed up now since reflex has never been their strong point. Hmmmm. Balance too is a dex skill I realised the other day (and not strength as I was in the habit of thinking). I predict a lot more attention to reflex saves, slotting dex and more carefully moving around a quest/raid/epic rather than just healing through. Hmmm. Going to change a lot of people's playstyles. I'll actually be careful around air eles again instead of the joke they became in recent times.

While painful this is going to make for smarter play so I think it's a good thing - also too for us the players using the same tricks back on the mobs. Tactics back in style. I like.

[Xenostrata]

Drat. My clerics are all totally stuffed up now since reflex has never been their strong point. Hmmmm. Balance too is a dex skill I realised the other day (and not strength as I was in the habit of thinking). I predict a lot more attention to reflex saves, slotting dex and more carefully moving around a quest/raid/epic rather than just healing through. Hmmm. Going to change a lot of people's playstyles. I'll actually be careful around air eles again instead of the joke they became in recent times.

While painful this is going to make for smarter play so I think it's a good thing - also too for us the players using the same tricks back on the mobs. Tactics back in style. I like.

Ridiculously easy to pass = bad
Completely OP = also bad

Give the knockback a save, change trips to balance, and put them all on cooldowns. /done.

[Chai]

[*]Stunning Blow/Severe Stunning Blow. If you ever have a low fortitude toon in ePartycrashers that gets within range of the boss by the bathroom, you'll quickly learn that once you have his agro you are dead unless someone else can grab it. That tiefling strong man spams Severe Stunning Blow about once every other seconds, and because it's duration far exceeds that it will generally cause you to be perma-stunned. Suggested Cooldown Time: 15 seconds, sames as for PCs.

I agree with this one. If theres going to be a cooldown on it, the mobs and PCs should have the same feat / same limitation.

[*]Earthgrab. Come u12, there will be no way to block earthgrab (FoM no longer protects against it and WF aren't granted immunity). Given that every other earth elemental attack is an earth grab, pretty much any low reflex save character that incurs the wrath of the elemental is screwed. Suggested Cooldown Time: 12 seconds. Not so long that the earthgrab isn't dangerous, but not so ridiculously overused either. Hidden benefit is that kiting earth elementals won't be so incredibly easy any more.

Earth elementals use it for a long time. Even when they dont land the grab the elemental is basically standing there taking hits and doing no damage to the party throughout the duration. 12 seconds would give it like 2 punches between doing another grab.

[*]Improved Trip/Trip. Like Stunning Blow, fighting monsters with the ability to trip on a character with a low save is incredibly annoying. Not only do trips not use Saves (or balance, which they really should), but pretty much anything with 4 legs will keep a character constantly on their back. Suggested Cooldown Time: 10 seconds for IT, 15 for Trip. Same as PC trips. And/or allow the Balance skill to be incorporated into the roll to avoid being tripped; being balanced means being able to avoid falling, not being able to get back up quickly.

Balance does NOT mean preventing being knocked down. If a 400+ pound quadraped with powerful jaws has your leg under control, and it decides to drag you down, you are going down town judy brown. I dont care if you are a world class gymnast / martial artist / parkour expert. The size of some of these dogs and felines that have this feat in the game compared to our toons suggest they likely would weigh several times that.

I do think that trip and improved trip feat should work the same for mobs as it does for players.

[*]Overrun. This effect is so annoying that people end up using cheap tactics to avoid it. Any time a monster capable of Overrun moves where you are, you will have to make a huge number of consecutive saves to avoid being knocked over. Because this ability is passive, I'm not suggesting a cooldown on it. However, I would suggest that on a successful save you become immune to overrun from that monster for the next 15 seconds.

I never understood overrun being passive. I always felt it should be an active ability and used every X amount of seconds in an arc or cone effect.

[*]Air Elemental Knockback. Also an incredibly annoying effect, especially since it has no save. The air elemental trip effect should be tied to the new Overrun, but the Knockback should be given a 20 second cooldown to avoid spamming all over the place.

I dont mind the knockback. Air elementals used to knock anyone who didnt roll a 20 on their check down to the ground, then toss them all over the zone. Nowdays they are much easier. Knockback isnt half as annoying, heh.

[*]Burrow/Phase. Another excruciatingly annoying skill monsters have, especially for people with limited resources, since the npc will invariably vanish just as you cast your DoT, causing you to lose SP and whatever you have stacked. This is much worse on ghosts, but both of them should have a minimum cooldown of 10 seconds. At the moment, ghosts will generally spend more time out of phase than in phase.

Phase is an at will ability for some mobs. Use persistent AOE rather than single target DOT. In the P&P game readied actions were pretty much the only way to deal with mobs that can incorporeal or phase at will. In a RTA game, its kind of the same where the player is ready to burst into action the moment the phased mob appears.

Feel free to suggest your own, I'm sure I missed some.

Make mobs make concentration checks to cast when beat on.

[Requiro]

/signed in some small parts:

Stun, Trip – I agree that Monster need colddown for that abilities. But (IMO) more logical is different colddown for different monster. For biger/4 legs monster this ability is more natural, then for 2 legs, small people like us.

Air Elemental Knockback – Yes for improvements. No for colddowns. Lower their DC save, and problem solved.

Concentration Checks – Yes. That will give us 5% chance to disrupt they casting (probably all monster will have so high Concentration skill that they will fail only when roll 1)

/not signed for:

Earthgrab – Earth Elemental don’t need any colddown. For 6 men party one Earth Elemental is short-life-Earth-Elemental. But group of 4-5 Elementals will become difficult enemy. Giving them Colddown, will reduce to minimum fun and challenge. Maybe for not spaming, 2-3 sec colddown should be max.

Overrun – Also don’t need any improvements. You can avoid it and you can save from it. Just turn off your autoattack and watch your enemy What will be fun that active blocking that give you much higher change to save from it.

Burrow/Phase – Another ability that need maximum 2-3 sec colddown or not at all. Just for not spaming. And when they show up, give us a little time to react. Like Chai said: if you have problems, use proper spells for them (like AOE DoT)

IMO: What I want is improvements to Monster AI, not static colddown to their abilities. They are not hard to kill already.

[Jay203]

Stunt, Trip – I agree that Monster need colddown for that abilities. But (IMO) more logical is different colddown for different monster. For biger/4 legs monster this ability is more natural, then for 2 legs, small people like us.

i LoL'ed xD

Burrow/Phase – Another ability that need maximum 2-3 sec colddown or not at all. Just for not spaming. And when they show up, give us a little time to react. Like Chai said: if you have problems, use proper spells for them (like AOE DoT)

what if you're a non-caster?
burrow and phasing are one of the most annoying thing in this game
give them a cooldown like FvS's Leap of Faith xD

[Requiro]

i LoL'ed xD

Me too

what if you're a non-caster?
burrow and phasing are one of the most annoying thing in this game
give them a cooldown like FvS's Leap of Faith xD

With proper weapon 3 second is more then enough to kill that monsters. If not... well you finish it when they show up again

[Sarisa]

Burrowing/Phasing does not work as it should. They often times stay active for no more than a second before becoming in-substantial again. Even with the best weapons available, you are not going to finish off a 3k HP epic Scorpion in that amount of time. You're not going to take out that 20k-30k HP rare phase spider in that amount of time. That spider fight in particular can drag on for minutes because 90% of the time it's phased out.

They do often phase or burrow when CC'ed. Webbed, stunned, paralyzed, doesn't matter. A lot of times they continue to dive or phase out.

Anything that is based off of pure stat checks as opposed to skill checks or saves is going to be overpowered or underpowered. There is no way to effectively balance it. The variance between stats is just too great, especially STR. With even a little gearing, a Barb can get 20-30 STR more than almost any other equivalent melee, which still is way more than a more supportive character could get.

Balancing elite Air Elementals so that only raging Bards or the best equipped Kensais can beat them just makes Air Eles "auto-win" against Clerics, Bards, FvS's, Arti's, Sorcs, etc. That is what the balance is right now. If it were save based, or balance based it would be a lot more fair to players.

[baii]

Turbine is pushing you to build more caster so they sell more pots.

Stunning Blow -Make a PM
Earthgrab - Make a wiz with insightful reflex
Improved Trip/Trip- Air savant
Overrun. - And again Air savant
Air Elemental Knockback.- Air savant !( i think air savant does immue)

[EnjoyTheJourney]

An emphatic "thumbs up" for this suggestion.

Dealing with chain mezzes is the diametric opposite of "having fun"; it's particularly disappointing because many games have found ways of challenging players without reducing them to spectator status for extended periods of time, and DDO online could do that as well.

[ghettoGenius]

These are some good ideas, especially that of stunning blow and concentration checks, but we also have to consider the impact additional programming logic will do to server performance here. Adding tons of extra save calculations for mobs is just as bad as adding them for players.

[dotHackSign]

What?! Next you'll want to take away their unlimited spell points

/signed but I doubt it will happen

[Xenostrata]

What?! Next you'll want to take away their unlimited spell points

/signed but I doubt it will happen

I heard a term for that recently. Something that meant violating the rules of the game in order to create challenge against that players. Can't remember the name, though (false challenge, maybe?).

[Destroyer_Omega]

Part of the problem with phasing-out creatures is that, in PnP Dungeons and Dragons, there are many ways to counter them, while in DDO they're forbidden. For example: remember the Ogre Magi that have a habit of phasing out when their health drops below a certain point? In PnP, that's supposed to be an Invisibility spell. So someone with See Invisible, and especially True Seeing, should be able to spot, attack, and kill them if they want to. Yet, it's not that way in DDO. Someone coding this behavior either forgot about possible counters to this ability, or did it on purpose, wanting players to patiently wait until the creature is willing to come back and get killed (so what if players can see invisible creatures? they are invisible to them anyway!). At least they aren't allowed to attack in that state, otherwise it would be 'patiently wait until the invisible and completely invulnerable creature finishes killing you...' (btw, this reminds me of the djinni ).

With creatures like Phasing Spiders and most kinds of ghosts it is a different matter. They go to the Ethereal plane where they are completely invulnerable to any attacks aimed at them from our 'normal' plane, even (most) magic attacks. So yes, being immune to our attacks is justified. However, even if they DO enter Ethereal plane, they are still detected by See Invisible and True Seeing! But can we see them in DDO? Phase Spiders are visible, but not ghosts...

I can think of some ways this could be brought more in line with PnP behavior, and less frustrating to counter. Those are only suggestions, and since they would require rewriting the current code for phasing, I don't see them getting live anytime soon (if this ever gets to live at all...).

Bugbear Assasins

Depending on what is the nature of their phasing-out:

• If it's supposed to be an Invisibility spell, then a See Invisible or True Seeing spell should reveal their location.
• If it's something alike to 'throw a smoke bomb and sneak away' then they should be handled like a normal sneaking enemy (and Spot/Listen should reveal their location).

Either way, it should be possible to attack and target them after noticing.

Ogre Magi

Location revealed by See Invisible and True Seeing, and it should be possible to attack and target them (they're supposed to be using Invisibility spell to vanish).

Phase Spiders

While phased-out, they are handled similarly to Incorporeal creatures (no damage on hit), but hitting brings up an 'Ethereal' message instead of 'Incorporeal', magic weapons have a 0% chance to work (not 50%), and Ghost Touch weapon property is ignored. They are unaffected by any spell being cast on them, and any area spell effect they enter (but spells and effects, magical or not, that have already been put on them don't cease to function).

Exceptions

Ethereal and similar item effects make the weapon able to affect a phased-out Phase Spider normally, without the Ethereal message. Force spells affect them normally (and while not dealing force damage, Blade Barrier should affect them too, because the blades are made out of magical force).

Wraiths, Spectres, Shades, etc.

While phased-out, See Invisible and True Seeing now makes them visible. Weapons that affect phased-out Phase Spiders should affect phased-out ghosts too.

Scorpions

Add the Earthquake spell - casting it in an area where a scorpion has buried will force it to make a Fortitude (or Will) save, failed save means it is forced out to the surface and dazed until hit (also add an item everybody can use with a few charges of this spell).

Except for that, I'm all for giving phase abilities some cooldown to make them not spammable, and less frustrating to fight for everyone.

[Memnir]

Either give the critters cooldowns or remove ours so we can return the favor.