New Elite VoD Loot

[Havok.cry]

It's in Suulomades's chest because the party wiped when the Paladin wielding it kept dispelling all of the debuffs and DoTs that were on Suulo.

No, its in his chest because the tiefling archers killed him and then said "hey boss look at this shiny, what a ******" Sully replied "LOL I bet I can get a bunch of people to die for this silly chunk of metal"

[waterboytkd]

Sephiroth, I have run some figures comparing all the stances and as I was trying to explain in an earlier thread, for 50% and 0 fort mobs, Earth Stance 3 and 4 provides the top dps, if wearing Jidz bracers or the Equilibrium garments. For 100% fort mobs, Air was the better stance. The increase in base wrap damage and the bonus crit magnitude on a 19 and 20 was convincingly greater than the dps gained from the extra 7-8 strikes (at Tier 3) from doublestrike. (Note. I assume all stances have haste negating the inherent speed bonus in Air).

Yeah, Earth 3/4 stance will give a +18% boost to the total unarmed damage dealt over a period of time (by unarmed damage, I mean the "crittable" portion of your damage). That number comes from the +10% to the main hand unarmed damage over a period of time and a +10% to the offhand unarmed damage, which only happens 80% of the time, so it ends up being 8% more unarmed damage over a period of time.

The Wind 4 stance gives a flat +10% bonus to damage due to 10% doublestrike. Sadly, offhand procs don't increase this damage like they do for Earth because doublestrike does not proc on offhand strikes. But, that 10% includes all damages dealt on a hit, such as elemental effects from wraps or ToD rings, and from gloves, such as epic Charged Gauntlets and epic Brawler's Gloves (note: eClaw set actually favors Earth in this instance because that +4 damage is augmented on crits). So, the only way Air is more damage than Earth is if 10% of all your non-crittable damage is > 8% of your unarmed damage. On certain, end-game viable monk builds, it might be possible...

Let's see: my current TR'd monk, when he gets to cap, is planned for the following gear: Tier 2 Air Alc Wraps (only thing not already obtained), 5 piece Abishai set, Holy Burst ToD ring, Acid Burst/Fire Burst/Cold Burst ToD ring, Shintao Set, Greater Bold Trinket, and Tharne's Goggles (as well as other, non-damage boosting gear). Also, he has power attack. He'll have a 26 str in Air and Earth stances.

His damage from an unarmed strike out of stance is: 2d10+21 +3.5(shocking)+.55(burst) +3.5(elemental)+.55(burst) +7(holy)+1.05(burst) +12(lightning strike) +5(eCharged Gauntlets*) +8(Tharne's SA) +.4 (Bold Trinket's seeker) +1.25(Bold Trinket's shocking blow, assuming no evasion but successful Ref save). Or, on average: 32(base) + 2.55(on crit extras) +40.25(non-crittable extras), for a total of 74.8.

*A lot of people claim eCharged Gauntlets is 3.5 damage per swing (20d6 on vorps, which is very close to 5% of the time), but the truth is it doesn't roll d6s, it rolls d3+3s. I have never seen it proc for less than low 90s for damage, never more than low 110s, and have never heard of it getting out of this range, either. The truth is it does not deal 20d6 on a vorp, it deals 20d3+60. Which is better (averages 100 per proc, or 5 damage per swing, instead of 3.5 damage per swing), as every little bit to help melees close the gap with casters is important.

So a 10% doublestrike just adds 10% of that total damage, so it's +7.48.

Those on crit extras would increase to 4.15 in Earth3/4 (a difference of 1.65), and 18% of the base is 5.76, so Earth nets a +7.41 damage per strike.

Wind 4 beats Earth 3/4 on that particular build by .07 damage per swing...which is really pretty negligible. However, if the enemy has ANY fortification, Wind starts winning by a much wider margin. And if there's no one keeping haste on the group, then Wind gets way ahead.

AND, lastly, this does not take strikes into account. When you consider those, Wind 4 adds an extra 10% from those to your damage as well, while Earth 3/4 does not add anything from strikes. This becomes quite relevant when you use something like Touch of Death. Also, wind stance gives a chance for additional procs for things like Quivering Palm, Stunning Fist, Imp. Sunder, and even Void 4, which is relevant as the more it goes off, the more chances you have to roll a vorpal with it.

If you're a light monk, you have a different gear setup (maybe something with epic Jidz, maybe eRaven's Sight + eGloves of the Claw + eGem of Many Facets), or don't use a lot of strikes (not sure what kind of monk that is, but hey), then Earth 3/4 definately seems like the better stance to be in until you go up against a mob with Fortification. A 50% Fort on a raid boss decreases the bonus you get from Earth by 50%, making Wind 4 seem much more appealing. However, if you rely more on elemental damages getting added for your dps, and you use a lot strikes (especially ToD or anything with a save negates effect), then I think Wind 4 should be your go-to stance.

[Sarezar]

Seeing how many people cannot see the obvious that is standing right in front of their eyes just because they don't like someone on the forums is mind boggling...

Shade's general opinions aside, the overpoweredness of monks in U12 is so blatantly obvious that you don't even need to do math, calculations or builds. It's just screaming OP.

And yes, I have a monk and she will go earth stance and air stance in U12 for trash/dps mode and tank/hate mode and she will be uber. That doesn't mean I can't see 3 feet in front of me.

[waterboytkd]

the overpoweredness of monks in U12 is so blatantly obvious that you don't even need to do math, calculations or builds. It's just screaming OP.

If every bad guy dealt 12000000000 damage per hit, would a 600,000 hp monk be OP? No. However, if you could get a 600K hp monk in DDO with the current system, that would be OP. I only make this ridiculous argument to show that the idea of "overpowered" is relative to the system involved.

That said, HAVE YOU EVER PLAYED A FREAKING CASTER? Or, better yet, HAVE YOU EVER PLAYED WITH A FREAKING CASTER? Yes, that's supposed to be shouting. Why? Because people keep spouting out how monks are OP when you have FREAKING CASTERS IN THIS GAME!

Monks, even with this boost to Earth stance to, you know, actually make it viable, are no where near OP. No where. Near. OP. For that to happen, they would have to be able to deal their damage without closing to melee, be able to do that damage to multiple mobs at once, and would have to have perfect self-healing. None of those are true. And then, what's the change to monks that's so OP? One of their stances gets a boost to make it viable to tank with. Not optimal, but viable (Pally's and Fighters still get more for tanking than monks do, including intimidate as a class skill). And suddenly, the sky is falling, and monks are going to take over DDO.

Nevermind that, even with this change, you'll never see a monk solo ToD. You'll never see a monk solo epics. You'll never see a monk break 1000 hp without gimping it's build to all hell. Monks are not OP, not with this change, not with casters the way they are.

So rather than scream and kick that monks are OP, why not be happy that the devs are showing love to a melee class, and then ask for that same love to get shown to the rest of the melees, so that there can be balance at end-game between the classes again.

[Hurak]

/snip Good write up

I probably should have prefaced my comment by referring to my hybrid (12M/6R/2F) TR build where T4 strikes aren't available.

As I understand it, 10% double strike does not equate to a 10% increase in dps, closer to 5.5-6% as it can only be calculated off main hand strikes.

[waterboytkd]

I probably should have prefaced my comment by referring to my hybrid (12M/6R/2F) TR build where T4 strikes aren't available.

As I understand it, 10% double strike does not equate to a 10% increase in dps, closer to 5.5-6% as it can only be calculated off main hand strikes.

Ah, yes. If you can only get to tier 3 of the stances, then Earth is best for dps, hands down (assuming haste).

As for calculating doublestrike, monks actually got it pretty easy. Just calculate mainhand damage, then multiply by 1.8 for your offhand proc and 1.1 for your doublestrike proc, or just 1.9 for both. Monks can do this because their offhands are identical to their mainhands. Truly unfortunate for other melees that this is not the case. So, yeah, it's not +10% of your total dps, it's +10% of your mainhand dps, and since your mainhand dps on a monk apprises about 55.55% of your total dps, 10% doublestrike would be a 5.555% increase to your total dps.

In my opinion, all melees should get full str to the offhand. Essentially, I think if you're wielding identical weapons, your stats for both hands should be identical. It would be a small change, but as I've said before, any help melees can get right now is needed in order to try and bridge the gap between them and casters.

[sephiroth1084]

If every bad guy dealt 12000000000 damage per hit, would a 600,000 hp monk be OP? No. However, if you could get a 600K hp monk in DDO with the current system, that would be OP. I only make this ridiculous argument to show that the idea of "overpowered" is relative to the system involved.

That said, HAVE YOU EVER PLAYED A FREAKING CASTER? Or, better yet, HAVE YOU EVER PLAYED WITH A FREAKING CASTER? Yes, that's supposed to be shouting. Why? Because people keep spouting out how monks are OP when you have FREAKING CASTERS IN THIS GAME!

Monks, even with this boost to Earth stance to, you know, actually make it viable, are no where near OP. No where. Near. OP. For that to happen, they would have to be able to deal their damage without closing to melee, be able to do that damage to multiple mobs at once, and would have to have perfect self-healing. None of those are true. And then, what's the change to monks that's so OP? One of their stances gets a boost to make it viable to tank with. Not optimal, but viable (Pally's and Fighters still get more for tanking than monks do, including intimidate as a class skill). And suddenly, the sky is falling, and monks are going to take over DDO.

Nevermind that, even with this change, you'll never see a monk solo ToD. You'll never see a monk solo epics. You'll never see a monk break 1000 hp without gimping it's build to all hell. Monks are not OP, not with this change, not with casters the way they are.

So rather than scream and kick that monks are OP, why not be happy that the devs are showing love to a melee class, and then ask for that same love to get shown to the rest of the melees, so that there can be balance at end-game between the classes again.

Pretty sure the argument is monks relative to other melee classes. Not making a judgment here, but there is a distinct dividing line between casters and melees, and at least in some instances, judging the power of something needs to be done without crossing that line.

[waterboytkd]

Pretty sure the argument is monks relative to other melee classes. Not making a judgment here, but there is a distinct dividing line between casters and melees, and at least in some instances, judging the power of something needs to be done without crossing that line.

I'm not sure what those instances would be, though. Because, if casters were apples and melees were oranges, then yeah, comparing one to the other would be moot. But that's just not the case. Not anymore. Casters are now dps spots in the raid party, like most melees, and casters can take the tank spot, too, if they want, though that tends to cost them pots. There are no roles that a melee can fulfill that a caster can't (only the LoB is tough in that he puts an ASF on the tank that even restricts divine casting; but that just means your caster tank needs to also have another caster watching him like a healer). But the opposite is not true: there are roles a caster can fulfill that a melee can't. That's why I compare any and all changes to melees against casters: melees are competing with casters in all fields at which melees can compete. It's probably also why they are giving a strong tanking mode to monks: tanking is the one field where casters WILL be less efficient than a melee.

Also, soloing should be considered, at least a little. Casters can solo epics. Melees can't. There are some epics where a melee can take a hireling, go in, and get a few kills before he needs to reset the instance, but melees simply can't scroll farm efficiently like a caster can. Which, if scrolls were bound, wouldn't matter all that much. But, because scrolls are not bound, and are thus the lifeblood of the DDO economy (maybe changing soon, we'll see), the capabilities of casters do in fact put players who play only melees at a disadvantage. Not only are they less versatile and powerful, but they also tend to be poorer!

BUT, the major point to take away from this: melees and casters are not apples and oranges. It's more likes apples and apples and oranges (casters being both apples and oranges). Saying melees must be compared against other melees for power purposes is only going to serve in keeping the divide between casters and melees huge.

[sephiroth1084]

I'm not sure what those instances would be, though. Because, if casters were apples and melees were oranges, then yeah, comparing one to the other would be moot. But that's just not the case. Not anymore. Casters are now dps spots in the raid party, like most melees, and casters can take the tank spot, too, if they want, though that tends to cost them pots. There are no roles that a melee can fulfill that a caster can't (only the LoB is tough in that he puts an ASF on the tank that even restricts divine casting; but that just means your caster tank needs to also have another caster watching him like a healer). But the opposite is not true: there are roles a caster can fulfill that a melee can't. That's why I compare any and all changes to melees against casters: melees are competing with casters in all fields at which melees can compete. It's probably also why they are giving a strong tanking mode to monks: tanking is the one field where casters WILL be less efficient than a melee.

Also, soloing should be considered, at least a little. Casters can solo epics. Melees can't. There are some epics where a melee can take a hireling, go in, and get a few kills before he needs to reset the instance, but melees simply can't scroll farm efficiently like a caster can. Which, if scrolls were bound, wouldn't matter all that much. But, because scrolls are not bound, and are thus the lifeblood of the DDO economy (maybe changing soon, we'll see), the capabilities of casters do in fact put players who play only melees at a disadvantage. Not only are they less versatile and powerful, but they also tend to be poorer!

BUT, the major point to take away from this: melees and casters are not apples and oranges. It's more likes apples and apples and oranges (casters being both apples and oranges). Saying melees must be compared against other melees for power purposes is only going to serve in keeping the divide between casters and melees huge.

My point is that the monk changes are almost completely irrelevant if comparing monks to casters, but are incredibly so if comparing monks to other melees. Yeah, the divide between casters and melees needs to be dealt with, but that really has nothing at all to do with judging whether monks are OP.

Look at it this way: if monks can attain the same or higher DPS as a barbarian, among the highest AC in the game, comparable threat to the big threat tanks of DoS and SD, the damage mitigation of a S&B build with Shield Mastery, Stun DCs that are comparable to those of Kenseis and barbarians, while also bringing unique support buffs, personal defense abilities that aren't replicable by anyone else, quasi-self-healing, the fastest movement speed in the game, some semi-useful CC and insta-kill abilities, AND Evasion and good saves...why play any other melee class?

There are still areas that melees excel that casters don't, and the devs have to continue working to find that ideal middle ground, but the power of casters has nothing to do with most of the buffs monks have gotten in the last few updates or how they stand relative to barbarians, fighters, paladins, rogues and rangers.

[LeLoric]

My point is that the monk changes are almost completely irrelevant if comparing monks to casters, but are incredibly so if comparing monks to other melees. Yeah, the divide between casters and melees needs to be dealt with, but that really has nothing at all to do with judging whether monks are OP.

Look at it this way: if monks can attain the same or higher DPS as a barbarian, among the highest AC in the game, comparable threat to the big threat tanks of DoS and SD, the damage mitigation of a S&B build with Shield Mastery, Stun DCs that are comparable to those of Kenseis and barbarians, while also bringing unique support buffs, personal defense abilities that aren't replicable by anyone else, quasi-self-healing, the fastest movement speed in the game, some semi-useful CC and insta-kill abilities, AND Evasion and good saves...why play any other melee class?

There are still areas that melees excel that casters don't, and the devs have to continue working to find that ideal middle ground, but the power of casters has nothing to do with most of the buffs monks have gotten in the last few updates or how they stand relative to barbarians, fighters, paladins, rogues and rangers.

Pretty spot on here. Contrary to many's belief monks were in pretty good shape prior to u12. The addition of alchem wraps (and prior to that cannith crafted wraps) had already pushed them up to near the top for dps.

I agree the stances probably deserved some tweaking but monks as a whole are getting a substantial buff as they have pretty much since inception. Probably the biggest reason we don't see a higher influx of them at end game power gamer type content is due to the large amount of bugs associated with the class.

[Jahmin]

IF this were ALL true

Look at it this way: if monks can attain the same or higher DPS as a barbarian, among the highest AC in the game, comparable threat to the big threat tanks of DoS and SD, the damage mitigation of a S&B build with Shield Mastery, Stun DCs that are comparable to those of Kenseis and barbarians, while also bringing unique support buffs, personal defense abilities that aren't replicable by anyone else, quasi-self-healing, the fastest movement speed in the game, some semi-useful CC and insta-kill abilities, AND Evasion and good saves...why play any other melee class?

Shade would actually be right. Fortunately for everyone this is NOT and he is wrong on this issue.

WHEN Monk’s suddenly have better than Barb DPS, better than Kensai tactics, better than Defender Hate along with useable AC & Saves all in a single package come get me. I will sell my shop and TR as a Monk. Sadly I will not be quitting my ‘day-job’ any time soon


Topic… got so distracted by the Shaded Monk Derail that I forgot why I was here… The loot seen thus far is junk; complete and utter garbage. Yes, it CAN be used, but explain the reason to farm an older raid on a more difficult setting for gear that is useable only long after its replacement has been already far easier acquired? Right, this ‘buff’ is too little, too late.

[sephiroth1084]

Pretty spot on here. Contrary to many's belief monks were in pretty good shape prior to u12. The addition of alchem wraps (and prior to that cannith crafted wraps) had already pushed them up to near the top for dps.

I agree the stances probably deserved some tweaking but monks as a whole are getting a substantial buff as they have pretty much since inception. Probably the biggest reason we don't see a higher influx of them at end game power gamer type content is due to the large amount of bugs associated with the class.

The stances needed some serious work, which they got, though perhaps a little too much. That will remain to be seen. Monks could probably stand to be dialed back a little bit, but I don't know how, in what way.

As for not seeing more of them, I think it likely has more to do with the clicky-intensive nature of the class and their MAD. I know that, until the spell pass, my monk posed a much bigger problem than my caster for mapping stuff to my gamepad. The spell pass put them at about even, and the nerf to the helpless condition has pushed the monk back up as I know longer feel like Earth strikes are the best option in many cases (in particular, I have no love for Fists of Iron or the Earth finisher when I can't guarantee that they are going to yield a crit).

And players don't like having to build characters that beg for so many stats. I think part of it is an aversion to feel like they have to incorporate tomes to get by. There's also the fact that monks are hard to build...you look at them and think you want Wis, Dex, Str and Con, sort of in that order, but then, should go you finesse? What stat to boost with levels? Can you get by dropping Dex or Wis for more Str? This is partly pulled from talking with people or looking at the monk questions and misconceptions on the forums, and partly from pure speculation.

I know that I've been considering TRing my monk for a while, but haven't a clue what I want to do with him. I like having an AC option, but I feel like I want more of a focus on tactics and DPS next life, but what stance(s) should I be looking to run around in? Do I want Void 4? Do I want access to all 4 stances at Master in order to swap roles around? How much Str/Wis/Dex is enough? They're rather difficult to work out, and I think that is the biggest reason for us not seeing many more of them running around.

[LeLoric]

IF this were ALL true

Shade would actually be right. Fortunately for everyone this is NOT and he is wrong on this issue.

WHEN Monk’s suddenly have better than Barb DPS, better than Kensai tactics, better than Defender Hate along with useable AC & Saves all in a single package come get me. I will sell my shop and TR as a Monk. Sadly I will not be quitting my ‘day-job’ any time soon


Topic… got so distracted by the Shaded Monk Derail that I forgot why I was here… The loot seen thus far is junk; complete and utter garbage. Yes, it CAN be used, but explain the reason to farm an older raid on a more difficult setting for gear that is useable only long after its replacement has been already far easier acquired? Right, this ‘buff’ is too little, too late.

Not sure if you are aware of how close you are to quitting your dayjob. Monks are at or near everything that was listed and have been for a while. Cries of monks are underpowered still exist even though reality is they are not and haven't been for quite some time.

[sephiroth1084]

IF this were ALL true

Shade would actually be right. Fortunately for everyone this is NOT and he is wrong on this issue.

WHEN Monk’s suddenly have better than Barb DPS, better than Kensai tactics, better than Defender Hate along with useable AC & Saves all in a single package come get me. I will sell my shop and TR as a Monk. Sadly I will not be quitting my ‘day-job’ any time soon

I was merely presenting the view that some people are taking to illustrate the point, although with just a glance, it seems rather obvious that monks are at least very close to being what I described, if not encompassing those points fully already. I'm not going to see whether they can be all of those things at once, but certainly monks can attain equal or better AC than S&B tanks while yielding better DPS in most cases, and can now generate enough hate to hold aggro, and can put up a lot of damage mitigation, all on one character. Don't think the same toon could switch up and get barbarian-level DPS, but you can certainly build a monk that sacrifices some of those defensive measures (and not even all of them) to gain that level of DPS.

It's not one character that is doing all of that, but it is one class that can achieve all of that across separate iterations.

[78mackson]

That said, HAVE YOU EVER PLAYED A FREAKING CASTER? Or, better yet, HAVE YOU EVER PLAYED WITH A FREAKING CASTER? Yes, that's supposed to be shouting. Why? Because people keep spouting out how monks are OP when you have FREAKING CASTERS IN THIS GAME!

Sarezar is the only one I know that has solo'd The Hound. I'm pretty sure he knows the class, and the mechanics of this game... edit. ..and the OP'ness of casters.

@OP/ ye, the grand illusion of Paladin being saved by the "one weapon" is now crushed. re-roll. atleast its a nice class to TR!

[elraido]

I think that you know better then to give the explanation of monks being "pay to win." as a excuse to Monk's now having a equal if not chance to surpass what you cherish. And we both know what we are talking about. Your a great player, you have done great things. But you have a hard head sometimes. I guess, I have played nothing but a monk from when I started and that is all i know, and some people may say im a weak player because of that. But think about it, you are not V.I.P. but do you own WF, or HO? Just consider it.
Because I loved the Monk class when people said it was nothing but a waste. I suppose in a way, I have you to thank for some of my hard work Shade. I remember the when I first started playing and I put up a VON 6 Epic guide. It was not the best quality, but, it had some thought put into it. But what stood out in my mind was that you said the reason why that the dps was so low in the group. Was because of the monk.
I don't think you knew that I was the monk in the group, but never the less...lets just say it lit a fire. And you cannot put it out, its impossible. But. I believe that you need to take a step back, and just reflect on not the state of what you cherish, but, instead how to constantly evolve that of which you cherish.
No matter what anyone says or how horrible or how behind or how stupid it is, you have to do it. Because in all builds and all things therein, if there is a will, there is a way.

Your monk is gimp....you ran right off the edge in eV06 rounding the corner to go to 1st base. I think you had a couple drinks that night.

[esheep]

[URL=http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/208/holyavenger.jpg/]

Make it 1d10 base damage, 18-20 x2 crit and give it metalline and a new effect called greater evil bane and people might want to use it... cold iron and axiomatic are a waste of pixels in screenshots.

[Angelus_dead]

Monks could probably stand to be dialed back a little bit, but I don't know how, in what way.

Step 1 to improving Monk balance:
Make handwraps and regular weapons benefit equally from TOD burst rings, greensteel, and TWF feats.

[sephiroth1084]

Step 1 to improving Monk balance:
Make handwraps and regular weapons benefit equally from TOD burst rings, greensteel, and TWF feats.

I'd be more in favor of that if there were some additional options for acquiring +2 exceptional stats and stuff like Healing Amp +20%. I suppose it's not such a big deal to lose those effects in most cases for the Bursts that would necessarily become prevalent on any melee character. Also (and this is a minor-ish point, particularly given the addition of Artificer's buffs) doing so would even more heavily devalue the paladin capstone and red augment slots as then anyone with a ToD ring would have good-aligned weapons. Do you want every character with an ESoS bypassing good+metal DR?

I think that that's a reasonable suggestion, but feel that it would require some additional shuffling.

Also, do you think monks are in a good enough place to lose their exclusive TWF benefits and still be in that good place?

[maddmatt70]

Pretty spot on here. Contrary to many's belief monks were in pretty good shape prior to u12. The addition of alchem wraps (and prior to that cannith crafted wraps) had already pushed them up to near the top for dps.

I agree the stances probably deserved some tweaking but monks as a whole are getting a substantial buff as they have pretty much since inception. Probably the biggest reason we don't see a higher influx of them at end game power gamer type content is due to the large amount of bugs associated with the class.

Oh the powergamer types that are ahead of the curve have already levelled monk builds up or respecced or what have you and I see players with monks playing those monks more at least compared to other melee. Monk types are also awesome in epic LOB, etc....