New Elite VoD Loot

[elraido]

I have read what you've said, but clearly you haven't read, or haven't understood, what I have been saying. Simply improving its crit profile (and really, improving its base damage isn't going to salvage this by itself), will not make this an excellent weapon. It won't even make it a very worthwhile weapon for anyone but the most undergeared paladins making their way to cap.

More importantly, though, my point was: WHY SHOULD THE HOLY AVENGER--THE ICON WEAPON OF PALADINS THAT PEOPLE HAVE BEEN ASKING FOR FOR YEARS--FINALLY COME OUT, ONLY TO BE A PLACEHOLDER WEAPON UNTIL CHARACTERS CAN GET THEIR HANDS ON ONE OF A HALF DOZEN OTHER, BETTER WEAPONS, SOME OF WHICH ARE EASIER TO ACQUIRE OR HAVE A MUCH LOWER ML?

Answer that. Why should the new addition to the elite difficulty of a raid in a clear attempt to get more people running the raid, and to finally satisfy the call for a Holy Avenger, be so weak as to be usable, maybe for only 2 levels (assuming you somehow manage to get the thing in your first half dozen, or dozen VoD runs before hitting level 20), and only against a handful of enemies? What's the point of the thing? Why include it in the game at all?

Because they made things so stupidly powerful that it shouldn't have come to the point where we are complaining about a weapon with that many attributes. I mean look at the 3.5 version that it is based on. That is the iconic weapon as you say. Look at what they have added to it and people are complaining that it is basically vendor trash. What does that say about the power creep that has been going on...and that people have been saying since shroud came out? I know that is another arguement. But at SOME POINT the it has to be reigned in here. Why not just add Holy, holy burst, holy blast, pure good, good burst, good blast, axiomatic, axiomatic burst, axiomatic blast, distruption, greater disruption, greater evil outsider bane, banishing, 4d6 x4 15-20 keen, silver, cold iron while they are at it. That way since it is the weapon of choice for paladins, the one they all want to strive for, they won't need to bother with any other items in the game.

Yes, that was all over the top, and that is the point. How over the top do we need them to go with this weapon? If they called it "gary's sword", would people be up in arms about it? They would say it is an ok weapon....could use a little work with the dice and crit range. But since they kind of envoked a holy avenger title with it, people are saying it is absolute garbage.

Besides, do we know of any hidden effects when it is paired with the matching shield? Personally, I think that would be the better way to go. Ups the damage dice, crit range and crit multiplier by one on each.

[Aaxeyu]

Because they made things so stupidly powerful that it shouldn't have come to the point where we are complaining about a weapon with that many attributes. I mean look at the 3.5 version that it is based on. That is the iconic weapon as you say. Look at what they have added to it and people are complaining that it is basically vendor trash. What does that say about the power creep that has been going on...and that people have been saying since shroud came out?

So what you are saying is that they should not add weapons that are better than the ones currently ingame?

[elraido]

So what you are saying is that they should not add weapons that are better than the ones currently ingame?

This is where we will get into catch 22 arugement about power creep and the game being stale.

[sephiroth1084]

Because they made things so stupidly powerful that it shouldn't have come to the point where we are complaining about a weapon with that many attributes. I mean look at the 3.5 version that it is based on. That is the iconic weapon as you say. Look at what they have added to it and people are complaining that it is basically vendor trash. What does that say about the power creep that has been going on...and that people have been saying since shroud came out? I know that is another arguement. But at SOME POINT the it has to be reigned in here.

This isn't the place to reign in power inflation. If you want to make that argument, go attack greensteel, epic, alchemical and Cannith crafted items. Go attack much more powerful named loot. This simply isn't the place to make a stand about loot inflation.

You know why? Because it's silly to do so over an item that falls way behind the power curve. I certainly didn't claim that this should be the best weapon for a paladin to ever use, but it should be good enough that it is the preferred weapon of paladins through endgame for at least a big chunk of monsters. Right now, it is a mediocre weapon against a very small number of creatures in the game. Go take a stand against stuff that is actually defining the upper reaches of the power curve.

So, your argument is that the thing is more powerful than the PnP version? Guess what! This game has left behind the power curve from PnP a loooong time ago. That argument is simply no longer relevant. The PnP version should inform the DDO one, acting as a starting point, and I believe that the devs have used it as such, but it shouldn't be the mold by which this is produced.

Yes, that was all over the top, and that is the point. How over the top do we need them to go with this weapon? If they called it "gary's sword", would people be up in arms about it? They would say it is an ok weapon....could use a little work with the dice and crit range. But since they kind of envoked a holy avenger title with it, people are saying it is absolute garbage.

Actually, yes, people would have a problem with it regardless of its name. You know why? It is a new weapon dropping in a lvl 18 raid, only on elite, with an ML of 18, that is worse than weapons that drop in easier content with much lower MLs, and is clearly an attempt by the devs to renew some interest in the raid and to promote running it on something above normal or hard...and they've failed in that task here for most players.

Is it interesting? Kind of, but it doesn't fulfill any of its purposes very well.

Besides, do we know of any hidden effects when it is paired with the matching shield? Personally, I think that would be the better way to go. Ups the damage dice, crit range and crit multiplier by one on each.

And it would be a better item if that were the case, but still not something players would use for very long, although a 15-20/x3 one-hander would see quite a bit of play, but for entirely unrelated reasons to the weapon's purpose or flavor. It would simply be the Sword of Shadows of S&B paladins.

As for requiring the shield to make it into a decent weapon...I feel like that narrows the niche on the sword much too far. It goes from being an okay weapon vs. chaotic evil monsters (that require cold iron to bypass their DR) for S&B or TWF paladins, to only being useful for S&B paladins. Sure, S&B needs some love, but this doesn't feel like the right way to go about giving it to them. Honestly, I feel that there should be either two Divine Avengers that drop, one a 1-hander, the other a 2-hander, or there should be a ritual that allows a player to convert the 2 1-handers into a 2-hander or something. In PnP there were greatsword versions of the Holy Avenger, and it seems silly to make a paladin-centric weapon that cuts out a big portion of the paladin populace.

What reason is there for this not to be a worthwhile weapon for paladins to use beyond level 19? What reason is there for this not to be competitive with more powerful weapons, such that capped, geared paladins would actually want to use it still?

[Aaxeyu]

This is where we will get into catch 22 arugement about power creep and the game being stale.

No. Power creep is IMO preferable to a stale game. Based on the fact that every MMO follows that principle I would say that the vast majority agrees with me.

[elraido]

It would simply be the Sword of Shadows of S&B paladins.

You make that sound like it is a bad thing? So should it be MORE powerful than a SoS in the hands of a barb?

Also, yes there should be a two handed version of the weapon. The only thing about doing that:
1.) People who are S&B will want one as well for DPS purposes. So in effect the THF will have to roll against the S&B people for them as well....ahhhh who am I kidding, no group takes more than one paladin with them at a time.

2.) Needing two to make one will create a very short supply of them. I would think just throw it into the alter with the holy sword component of your choice and BAM...new one.

[sephiroth1084]

You make that sound like it is a bad thing? So should it be MORE powerful than a SoS in the hands of a barb?

No, but that's a class discussion. The ESoS is more powerful, relatively, in the hands of a capstone paladin than in the hands of a barbarian, not including the rather difficult to acquire special crystals that drop in Epic Devil Assault.

My point was that the ESoS is basically the best weapon to use in almost every situation, because its damage scales incredibly quickly with increasing base damage mods, which are rather abundant. I feel like this weapon should be the best thing a paladin can use in some situations (against evil opponents, chaotic opponents, and especially against chaotic evil opponents). Whereas something with that crit profile would likely be the best weapon in nearly every situation, just because of the profile. Look at the regular SoS on a barbarian...with enough damage (and we're talking somewhere around +70) it becomes better than a Lit II 2-hander against anything not requiring a DR breaker, and it's an ML 10, relatively easy to acquire weapon.

Also, yes there should be a two handed version of the weapon. The only thing about doing that:
1.) People who are S&B will want one as well for DPS purposes. So in effect the THF will have to roll against the S&B people for them as well....ahhhh who am I kidding, no group takes more than one paladin with them at a time. Just like the TWF characters who want two versions of a weapon. I'm fine with that.

2.) Needing two to make one will create a very short supply of them. I would think just throw it into the alter with the holy sword component of your choice and BAM...new one.

Sure. That sounds fine to me. I don't care what the mechanic is, so long as it is available.

[Shade]

What's good about those wraps?

Acid Burst + Acid Blast = fairly low damage from a weak crit weapon. The 2d6 damage from Holy would be higher.
Tharaak Corrosion = a copy of Peals of Thunder, which worked out to under 1 damage per hit.
Nightmare Mind Blast: Against level-appropriate monsters comes to about 1.13 damage per hit.
Nightmare Phantasmal Killer: A level-appropriate monster passes the saving throw 99.75% of the time, so you'll expect one kill per 4000 hits of non-immune creatures.

Wrong on pretty much all counts.
Acid burst + blast = pretty **** good considering monks +crit multi for the now vastly overpowered mountain stance also works on increasing burst dmg... Unlike berserker bonuses. A quick calc shows they work out about equal dps to holy with earth stance, but surpass it if you apply the earth finisher.
Tharaak corrosion = The pearls of thunder was **** because getting it to stack was quite difficult. Monks attack much faster, and as such will have better chances at stackign this.
Nightmare force dmg: SICK dmg vs certain things with weak will saves, which is a lot more then you think. Even some targets in the hardest quest in the game (eLoB) will fail this save 95% of the time.
Nightmare PK:
Plain wrong. The DC on this is EXTREMELY high. They VASTLY upgraded this in U11.. This effect is insane now. It can and will kill 15,000+ hp epic mobs FAST.

These wraps are mega monk love, like almost everything in U9/U10/U11/U12.. Hell every update lately.

Considering how poor the greatclub and longsword are, monks got extremely lucky.

[voodoogroves]

These wraps are mega monk love, like almost everything in U9/U10/U11/U12.. Hell every update lately.

Is your point that they are getting so much that there is little reason to play anything else because they are awesome, or just that you feel like it is unfair in comparison to other classes and they still aren't dominating the game?

[Shade]

Is your point that they are getting so much that there is little reason to play anything else because they are awesome, or just that you feel like it is unfair in comparison to other classes and they still aren't dominating the game?

Far as balance goes:
I feel they were an extremely powerful class 5 updates ago, not overpowered in many areas compared to other melee classes, but quite powerful overall and fairly balanced.
U12: Stepped it over the edge, they are far more powerful then any other melee class in nearly every facet of the game and it's unbalanced. And yea there is little reason to play much any other melee class for nearly every purpose as monks are now:
-Highest DPS in the game (Alchemicals put them ahead of barbarians which is completely illogical)
-Highest AC
-Strongest and most stuns of any class - by far
-Strongest tactics in general, getting double procs on all tactics
-Fastest passive run speed
-Top notch saves and evasion (second only to paladin in saves)
-Top notch tanks - Second only to sword and board stalwarts/siberys.. due to mountain stance upgrade, better tanks then barbarians now which I think is utterly redicules, and they need not make huge DPS sacrifices like ftr/pal must to do so.
-Most versatile melee class. Having access to a huge variety of small buffs, self healing, no limitations from rage.

There just so powerful now that if you compare say a monk vs say a ranger, kensai fighter, kotc paladin, the monk wins in EVERY single way. Vs a bbn, the only dis-advantage they have is in AOE dps, otherwise beat in every other facet.

Aside from Stalwarts/Siberys being better tanks, Monks have every facet of melee combat dominated as of U12.

On the itemization side:
They get CLASS SPECIFIC attention EVERY update.
What other class gets 100% specific loot for their class so often? None.

Ok so paladin finally got something specific in u12 too.
But has ranger got anything specific since ToD? Nope. Fighter? Nope. Barbarian? Nope. Rogue? Nope. Monk? EVERY UPDATE.

Yes I get that there unique style makes them prefer specific weaponry, while other classes can use a larger variety effectively..
I don't get why they have to have the most powerful weapon added 3 updates in a row while every other class has had to wait YEARS to get anything specific to them added, and very boring power upgrades that are years apart.

Well actually I do get it. They cost dollars, thus they get far more attention then classes that dont cost dollars.

Pay to win.

Sad thing is even as the best melee class, they are vastly inferior to all the primary caster classes (wis,sor,clr,fvs)..

Tho favored souls are the best all around casters for obvious reasons too (they CAN cost dollars, while others are free)

[Forgeborn]

Acid burst + blast = pretty **** good considering monks +crit multi for the now vastly overpowered mountain stance also works on increasing burst dmg... Unlike berserker bonuses. A quick calc shows they work out about equal dps to holy with earth stance, but surpass it if you apply the earth finisher.

Lovely, monks get +1 crit modifier from the tier 3 or tier 4 earth stance, putting them at a dashing 19-20 *3, even if you assume that they somehow magically get the *4 effect constantly, which won't be the case, it will still be pretty trashy

over 20 attacks, with the assumption you hit on a 1, and always verify the critical threats, you would be dealing roughly an extra 7.325 acid damage per hit.

Tharaak corrosion = The pearls of thunder was **** because getting it to stack was quite difficult. Monks attack much faster, and as such will have better chances at stackign this.
Nightmare force dmg: SICK dmg vs certain things with weak will saves, which is a lot more then you think. Even some targets in the hardest quest in the game (eLoB) will fail this save 95% of the time.

It's still ****, for one, it's acid, meaning all devils pretty much ignore it, which is still a lot of the current endgame, peals of thunder had the advantage of being sonic damage, which hits pretty much everything. Sure, a monk can get it to stack more reliably, but that doesn't mean it's good, or even remotely useful.

Nightmare PK:
Plain wrong. The DC on this is EXTREMELY high. They VASTLY upgraded this in U11.. This effect is insane now. It can and will kill 15,000+ hp epic mobs FAST.

These wraps are mega monk love, like almost everything in U9/U10/U11/U12.. Hell every update lately.

Assuming it's the same as the Terror greatsword effect, it's handy here and there, but it's not great.

'Monk love'... Love how you can even say that, seeing as Wraps in all flavors are pretty much borked to uselessness, sure, they're FINALLY starting to fix the cannith crafted ones, but they'll have a long way to go before it's all fixed and working properly.

Sure, almost every update releases something that a monk can use, but the same goes for pretty much every class, the first 'real' weapon upgrade over randomly generated wraps (the ones that work most of the time!) are the U11 wraps, which were broken on release, as usual. U12 will take earth stance and add a massive amount of incite to it, meaning that when we want the added DPS the most, meaning for raid bosses, we won't be able to use it due to aggro management issues, unless we somehowget assigned as main tank.

Considering how poor the greatclub and longsword are, monks got extremely lucky.

Pretty much all raid bosses are resistance to Acid and will ignore most of the wrap's effects, same as with the greatclubs effect. The wraps are moderately handy against Thrash, same as the greatclub, these wraps will be carried by a monks for situational use at best.

Sure, the sword is only useful in specific situations, since it's intended to be a demon beater, which is precisely one raid in the game that revolves around those.

On the itemization side:
They get CLASS SPECIFIC attention EVERY update.
What other class gets 100% specific loot for their class so often? None.

Ohh, since when is it 'class specific'? last i checked your barbarian can also equip handwraps, he's not barred from using them is he? Like he is from using Runearms.

all in all: monks didn't get 'extremely lucky' in the last few updates, not in the least.

[gloopygloop]

Far as balance goes:
I feel they were an extremely powerful class 5 updates ago, not overpowered in many areas compared to other melee classes, but quite powerful overall and fairly balanced.
U12: Stepped it over the edge, they are far more powerful then any other melee class in nearly every facet of the game and it's unbalanced. And yea there is little reason to play much any other melee class for nearly every purpose as monks are now:
-Highest DPS in the game (Alchemicals put them ahead of barbarians which is completely illogical)
-Highest AC
-Strongest and most stuns of any class - by far
-Strongest tactics in general, getting double procs on all tactics
-Fastest passive run speed
-Top notch saves and evasion (second only to paladin in saves)
-Top notch tanks - Second only to sword and board stalwarts/siberys.. due to mountain stance upgrade, better tanks then barbarians now which I think is utterly redicules, and they need not make huge DPS sacrifices like ftr/pal must to do so.
-Most versatile melee class. Having access to a huge variety of small buffs, self healing, no limitations from rage.

There just so powerful now that if you compare say a monk vs say a ranger, kensai fighter, kotc paladin, the monk wins in EVERY single way. Vs a bbn, the only dis-advantage they have is in AOE dps, otherwise beat in every other facet.

Aside from Stalwarts/Siberys being better tanks, Monks have every facet of melee combat dominated as of U12.

On the itemization side:
They get CLASS SPECIFIC attention EVERY update.
What other class gets 100% specific loot for their class so often? None.

Ok so paladin finally got something specific in u12 too.
But has ranger got anything specific since ToD? Nope. Fighter? Nope. Barbarian? Nope. Rogue? Nope. Monk? EVERY UPDATE.

Yes I get that there unique style makes them prefer specific weaponry, while other classes can use a larger variety effectively..
I don't get why they have to have the most powerful weapon added 3 updates in a row while every other class has had to wait YEARS to get anything specific to them added, and very boring power upgrades that are years apart.

Well actually I do get it. They cost dollars, thus they get far more attention then classes that dont cost dollars.

Pay to win.

Sad thing is even as the best melee class, they are vastly inferior to all the primary caster classes (wis,sor,clr,fvs)..

Tho favored souls are the best all around casters for obvious reasons too (they CAN cost dollars, while others are free)

Since there is very little reason to play any other class and since you play enough that you could get through a TR in a fairly short amount of time, I have to ask...

Do you have a Monk character that you play yourself?

[Shade]

Since there is very little reason to play any other class and since you play enough that you could get through a TR in a fairly short amount of time, I have to ask...

Do you have a Monk character that you play yourself?

I don't pay to win, just as a rule. Thus I couldn't play a monk even if I wanted to, they are locked for me. I have been VIP many times in the past and could have, but they werent so vastly overpowered back then.

And the TR isn't so much a problem as it is accepting the whole pay to win junk, I just wont do it out of principal.

I'd rather they just start charging for all classes, then buff them all up to be as strong as monks.

EG:
-Give barbarians percentile damage reduction. Add ravager, make it powerful.
-Give Rangers deepwood sniper 3, upgrade the other tiers to make them the best ranged DPS as they should be. (ATM ftr or bbn arcane arcanse outclass them by leaps and bounds, or in u12 one of those weird zen archery monk splash builds)
-Give paladins kotc and undead hunter a lot more DPS and apply more genericly to cover a broader range of enemies.

[Shade]

Ohh, since when is it 'class specific'? last i checked your barbarian can also equip handwraps, he's not barred from using them is he? Like he is from using Runearms.

Semantics. I can't take unarmed strike feat, I cant use handwraps, simple as that. No unarmed barbarians allowed in DDO, thats the rules turbine set. Should I be allowed to take that feat and do reasonable unarmed dps, I probably would have an unarmed barbarian.

all in all: monks didn't get 'extremely lucky' in the last few updates, not in the least.

Luck had nothing to do with it. Dollars did.

'Monk love'... Love how you can even say that, seeing as Wraps in all flavors are pretty much borked to uselessness, sure, they're FINALLY starting to fix the cannith crafted ones, but they'll have a long way to go before it's all fixed and working properly.

Also tired of reading monks complain about this. All the imporant wrap bugs affecting your performance have been addressed.

And guess what - every class suffers TONS of bugs. Monks just get a lot more attention since theyre bugs are "new".
Barbarians have had to suffer devastating bugs that severely limit the class for 6 years.. We just stopped asking for fixes a couple years in as they never cared to address them. Monks have no more or less bugs then any other class, the only difference is they at least ATTEMPT to fix them, even if they dont always get it right at least they try.

And bugs/bug fixing dont have anything to do with Class improvemetns and class specific loot being added either. Stop bringing it up in every topic with the word "monk" in it.

[mystafyi]

Well actually I do get it. They cost dollars, thus they get far more attention then classes that dont cost dollars.

Turbine always does this. lets take a quick look at p2p classes/races in ddo.
Horc - Melee draw since high dps
Warforged - arcane draw since easy selfheal/high con
Fvs - 2500favor or p2p (I really dont need to comment on the pluses of fvs)
Monk - as you posted above
Artificer - 150 favor or p2p -insanely OP at low/medium levels (wasnt it you shade, that posted arti's are the best single target healers now too??)
didnt list the helf since i dont know it well, but some claim that you can get the highest burst dps with them.

[Forgeborn]

Semantics. I can't take unarmed strike feat, I cant use handwraps, simple as that. No unarmed barbarians allowed in DDO, thats the rules turbine set. Should I be allowed to take that feat and do reasonable unarmed dps, I probably would have an unarmed barbarian.

Correct, you can't take unarmed strike, sorta how the monk can't take Rage, frenzy, or death frenzy. And you can use handwraps, it's really easy, just buy, or find, any set of handwraps, and then double click them from your inventory, see, you're using handwraps as a weapon now! so you can make that unarmed barbarian! Unarmed barbarian's are allowed as much as Barbarian's running around sword and boarding with a tower shield and a dagger, nothing is preventing you from doing that, it might not be effective, but nothing is preventing you from doing that.

In all seriousness; Yes, i see that handwraps are mostly intended to be used by monks, but there's so many bugs with them that I might as well unequip them and fight without weapons during some updates.

also: you don't do pay to win you say, but Greataxer Is a half-orc, and Metalaxer Is a Warforged, both which require you to either be a VIP or having bought them with turbine points. Kinda going against what you say there, aren't you?

ps. Also, monks can be played completely free if you want to do that, it just takes a small amount of dedication on running favor toons through elite harbor quests, or running a few TR's up.

Edit in: Every class suffers bugs, yes, I can't deny that, but you're claiming that monks are getting 'love' while they're getting fixes and tweaks to some stances. Every class has been fixed, tweaked, and messed with so many times, from overpowering them to making them near useless. Monks have seen both sides of the scales over the course of a handful of updates.

If you want to complain about classes getting love, al least also complain about other classes who are also getting enough love to smother them. Just look at the new version of the Shroud of the Abbot, the Phiarlan mirror cloak, or the robe/docent of shadow.

[gloopygloop]

I don't pay to win, just as a rule. Thus I couldn't play a monk even if I wanted to, they are locked for me. I have been VIP many times in the past and could have, but they werent so vastly overpowered back then.

And the TR isn't so much a problem as it is accepting the whole pay to win junk, I just wont do it out of principal.

And aren't you the one who keeps telling people not to rely on spreadsheets, but to actually make a build yourself and test it for real before making grand claims about that build?

I'm pretty sure you even have an entire thread where people have an opportunity to back up their DPS claims with real world testing. In that thread, Monks and Monk splashes turn out to be really good at fighting portals. They're actually outstanding at fighting portals. But when you look at the Sobrien challenge, you'll see that Byrron, the monk that beat the pants off of everyone else's portal time drops to number 14 behind one other Monk and a whole bunch of Kensai Fighters and Barbarians.

Mineral2 (or equiv) Giant Entries:
#1 Alpine in ranger form (Half Orc Rng/Bbn/Ftr 12/6/2 TWF - Khopesh) 3:12
#2 Monkeyarcher (Half-Orc lvl20 Kensai Ftr - Falcion) 3:25

Any Weapon Giant Entries:
#1 Cetuss (Half-Orc lvl20 Ftr THF - Twitch ESoS) 2:07
#2 Children (Half-Orc FB Bbn/Ftr 18/2 THF - Autocleave ESoS) 2:16
#3 Laeris (Half-Orc lvl20 Ftr TWF - Dual Lit2 Khops) 2:19
#4 Aygo (Half-Elf Ftr/Rng/Bbn 12/6/2 - Bow manyshot + twf cold khop 2:23
#5 Hmpf (Half-Orc FB lvl20 Bbn THF - ESoS) 2:28
#7 Kjeldorn (Half-Orc lvl20 Ftr THF - Twitch ESoS) 2:31
#8 Zavarthak (Half-Orc lvl20 Ftr TWF - Dual Lit2 Khops) 2:31***
#9 Greataxer (Half-Orc FB Bbn/Ftr 18/2 THF - ESoS) 2:40
#10 Krythan (WF Kensai Ftr lvl20 THF - Twitch ESoS) 2:50
#11 Metalaxer (WF FB Barb lvl20 THF - ESoS) 2:50
#12 Grunzo (Dwarf 12/6/2 Ftr/Bbn/Rog TWF Lit2 DA) 2:53
#13 Rishnarck - (Warforged Mnk/Ftr/Rng 12/7/1 Vicous GGB Wraps) 2:57
#14 Byrron - (Human lvl20 Monk - GGB Wraps) 3:43
#15 Dualaxer (Dwarf FB lvl20 Barb TWF - Dual GGB) 3:55
#16 Teenie Tiny (Halfling lv20 Monk - GGB Wraps) 5:10
#17 Grunzar (Dwarf 18/2 DoS Pal/Rog - non-epic sos / Hellfail ga) 6:14 ***

That doesn't look like the no holds barred best DPS to me. Unless you're fighting an end game enemy that doesn't fight back. I imagine that Monks might very well have the best melee DPS against the giant crystals in Schemes of the Enemy as well. Isn't that exciting? It's a shame that their DPS drops off in comparison with other classes against most of the enemies that actually fight back.

[Sarezar]

I agree with Shade 100%. When I saw the Monk updates, I only said one thing: "Again???"

We've waited for years to see balanced PrEs for ALL classes. Still not finished. Yet monks get boost after boost after boost....

Frankly, I don't see why the ToD rings still need to only work on unarmed. Monks do not need help in boosting their DPS anymore. Any class should have access to that (and also the ability to have perma-good damage on all their attacks, making metalline/silver/cold iron/etc weapons easier to use for DR purposes.

If the idea of all my melee characters being monks wasn't so absurdly boring, I would have TRed them already. But this isn't Naruto Online you know...

[Zion_Halcyon]

So thats it for new VoD loot?

Just Omniscience and a 13 pages discussing the new Pali sword?

[Taimasan]

I think that you know better then to give the explanation of monks being "pay to win." as a excuse to Monk's now having a equal if not chance to surpass what you cherish. And we both know what we are talking about. Your a great player, you have done great things. But you have a hard head sometimes. I guess, I have played nothing but a monk from when I started and that is all i know, and some people may say im a weak player because of that. But think about it, you are not V.I.P. but do you own WF, or HO? Just consider it.
Because I loved the Monk class when people said it was nothing but a waste. I suppose in a way, I have you to thank for some of my hard work Shade. I remember the when I first started playing and I put up a VON 6 Epic guide. It was not the best quality, but, it had some thought put into it. But what stood out in my mind was that you said the reason why that the dps was so low in the group. Was because of the monk.
I don't think you knew that I was the monk in the group, but never the less...lets just say it lit a fire. And you cannot put it out, its impossible. But. I believe that you need to take a step back, and just reflect on not the state of what you cherish, but, instead how to constantly evolve that of which you cherish.
No matter what anyone says or how horrible or how behind or how stupid it is, you have to do it. Because in all builds and all things therein, if there is a will, there is a way.