New Elite VoD Loot

[Zeruell]

That was one thing I was thinking about actually. How is this really different than enduring conviction....they basically traded out banishing for radiance and tacked on some other minor things (cold iron and sr and greater dispel). With the addition to GEOB to E.C., this actually almost seems like it will fall behind in DPS to it.

Wasn't Enduring Conviction getting Cold Iron as well? Maybe I dreamed that up in a fit of madness...
At the very least, the to-hit modifier does favor Enduring Conviction over this.

[LeLoric]

Wasn't Enduring Conviction getting Cold Iron as well? Maybe I dreamed that up in a fit of madness...
At the very least, the to-hit modifier does favor Enduring Conviction over this.

The thing says remove evil outsider bane add greater outsider bane no mention of cold iron.

So it appears that any new convictions to drop will have eob but not sure if anything else removed, maybe banishing?

No mention of cold iron.

[Sarisa]

(Tried to post this earlier, but apparently I found a forum bug that gave me a POST not implemented error)

My opinion on VoD is that it's control of the trash and resource management that really matters. CC or Kill the trash fast enough, then the healers won't have to burn much SP through the fights until the dangerous parts at the end. Without proper control, then it does turn into an SP-fest.

PUG VoD's lately (not semi-private guild and alliances groups) tend to have casters that don't want to buff, don't want to recon (if there is a WF tank), and don't want to CC. They think their job is DoT'ing Sully, and taking aggro, then running around the room like idiots. It's the healers that end up paying for that, even when you let that caster die.

The other problem are high DPS people who refuse to set aside their ego and let the tank properly gain aggro. This especially matters in the second phase when Sully Chains. Many of these people are heavily geared, and still don't understand simple aggro control.

Crazy talk. We ran epic Von6 last week with 3 players under 350 hp (one was 290) and they all survived and contributed well. These fictional minimum levels hurt the game, get over the fear of failure.

And how many pots did the healers have to use to keep those three people up? The HP minimum stated is to make the healers heals more efficient, so they can last through the entire fight without having to drink for your victory.

A 300 HP individual will barely survive 2 swipes from Velah, while higher HP people can survive 3-4. Low HP people can end up doubling a healer's SP usage, for little positive benefit.

[elraido]

(Tried to post this earlier, but apparently I found a forum bug that gave me a POST not implemented error)

My opinion on VoD is that it's control of the trash and resource management that really matters. CC or Kill the trash fast enough, then the healers won't have to burn much SP through the fights until the dangerous parts at the end. Without proper control, then it does turn into an SP-fest.

PUG VoD's lately (not semi-private guild and alliances groups) tend to have casters that don't want to buff, don't want to recon (if there is a WF tank), and don't want to CC. They think their job is DoT'ing Sully, and taking aggro, then running around the room like idiots. It's the healers that end up paying for that, even when you let that caster die.

The other problem are high DPS people who refuse to set aside their ego and let the tank properly gain aggro. This especially matters in the second phase when Sully Chains. Many of these people are heavily geared, and still don't understand simple aggro control.



And how many pots did the healers have to use to keep those three people up? The HP minimum stated is to make the healers heals more efficient, so they can last through the entire fight without having to drink for your victory.

A 300 HP individual will barely survive 2 swipes from Velah, while higher HP people can survive 3-4. Low HP people can end up doubling a healer's SP usage, for little positive benefit.

I don't know what type of parties you go with, but it is an easy mission to complete. Heck I have soloed it on my paladin. There shouldn't really be any pots used. The survive, those lower hp people just need to let the higher hp take aggro of the trash, then they can go in behind and attack.

[Kmnh]

(Tried to post this earlier, but apparently I found a forum bug that gave me a POST not implemented error)

My opinion on VoD is that it's control of the trash and resource management that really matters. CC or Kill the trash fast enough, then the healers won't have to burn much SP through the fights until the dangerous parts at the end. Without proper control, then it does turn into an SP-fest.

PUG VoD's lately (not semi-private guild and alliances groups) tend to have casters that don't want to buff, don't want to recon (if there is a WF tank), and don't want to CC. They think their job is DoT'ing Sully, and taking aggro, then running around the room like idiots. It's the healers that end up paying for that, even when you let that caster die.

The other problem are high DPS people who refuse to set aside their ego and let the tank properly gain aggro. This especially matters in the second phase when Sully Chains. Many of these people are heavily geared, and still don't understand simple aggro control.



And how many pots did the healers have to use to keep those three people up? The HP minimum stated is to make the healers heals more efficient, so they can last through the entire fight without having to drink for your victory.

A 300 HP individual will barely survive 2 swipes from Velah, while higher HP people can survive 3-4. Low HP people can end up doubling a healer's SP usage, for little positive benefit.

I think you need to start letting stupid people die.

It feels good, really. The first time I've let a dumb sorcerer die on a raid, a cackled maniacally for a full minute before tossing him a raise. The time-out helped the tank estabilish aggro

[sephiroth1084]

This. This is also one reason why I would be very hesitant to add anything to it beyond making the base damage 2d8 OR the crit profile x3 OR 18-20 range.. Being able to craft on it, while it would be nice, would simply make it way over powered. Ever since the addition of greensteel (items were becoming over powered at that time) and then epic SoS, everyone compairs an item to it. If it doesn't come near an epic SoS, the item is gimp and shouldn't even exist. That is the same issue with what is going on with this item. It is a very decent item. Is it great...no. With some minor tweeking, it can be an item that every paladin should strive for.

Before tossing out outrageous claims, why not run some numbers through Barrage?

I for one don't feel this should be more DPS than a barbarian wielding an ESoS, as that would be preposterous, but it should definitely be considerably better than greensteel and at least end up comparable to the top tier epic weapons a paladin would be using. I'd be happy if it were situationally better than a paladin wielding an ESoS. Why? Because the weapon should get used! You want to complain about item inflation? Do it somewhere that such an argument is relevant. You're not going to get item deflation reversed here, so new stuff necessarily has to fit into that continuum somewhere, and guess what? This is currently a rather mediocre item.

I think it would be stupid for the devs to finally release the equivalent of a Holy Avenger, only to have it get used by a small fraction of the paladin playerbase for 2 levels before getting tossed in the bank to collect dust.

What they lack in DPS they can more than make up in survivability. It is a trade off...not all classes should be able to out DPS a frenzied barb with an epic SoS.

That's not how the endgame in DDO works. Yes, paladins come with a lot of survivability, which is a major plus, but they also need DPS, and guess what? There are plenty of weapons that offer better DPS for a paladin than this does. Among them: Lit II scimitar or khopesh, Enduring Conviction, Cannith crafted Holy Burst of Greater Bane scimitar or Khopesh, several epic weapons and the new alchemical weapons.

It needs to be worth using over those in at least some situations and this iteration of the thing just does not do that. Now, I feel that it should have some value to it besides DPS, but it should have enough DPS to be worth using over its competition. This should be among the best weapons a pure paladin can wield, otherwise it's an almost complete waste of space in the game, especially as an ML 18 item.

Just increasing the base damage is not going to salvage this. Improving the crit profile in some way will go a long way, but it won't help it pull out ahead of most of those other weapons.

Also, while VoD elite isn't the hardest thing in the game, it is not easy. Should this drop in elite ToD instead? Maybe, but that raid already has more reason to run it than VoD does. And that's why I proposed adding some craftability to the item to unlock other powers by using items and ingredients from content that is hard enough to warrant making this the best weapon a paladin can wield.

Is running Epic Lord of Blades for the ingredients to fully upgrade this somehow easier than grinding EVoN 1 and 6 for the parts to an Epic Sword of Shadows? Absolutely not! That would warrant this being dramatically increased in power wouldn't it? Think of it in the same context as Vault of Night base items getting upgraded to epic. This would just be a raid item that upgrades to epic caliber along different route. The epic red dragon armor upgrades in a unique way as well--it has no scroll or seal and requires an unrelated item from a different pack.

[Schmoe]

I feel like it should be generally strong enough that a paladin would want this to be their main weapon in most cases. It's the only weapon in the game tailored to a specific class, and I feel like it would be a complete waste of effort and opportunity for awesomeness if it ended up being weaker than, say, a Shroud weapon. Weaker than a Cannith raid weapon...I think that would be reasonable, as those are pretty strong and rather difficult to fully upgrade...unless this became upgradeable using the same materials. That actually would be my preference, for it to be on par with the weapons that come out of LoB and MA fully upgraded, but using materials from those raids, or that are just as difficult to acquire (difficult, not long...that is, just as difficult to get as stuff from Epic LoB).


Greater Evil Bane sounds pretty good. I think that if they went that route, it should actually become:

<snip>

That all sounds great, but you forgot the cherry on top!

[elraido]

[QUOTE=sephiroth1084;4148544]There are plenty of weapons that offer better DPS for a paladin than this does. Among them: Lit II scimitar or khopesh, Enduring Conviction, Cannith crafted Holy Burst of Greater Bane scimitar or Khopesh, several epic weapons and the new alchemical weapons.
/QUOTE]

I had a nice response all typed out and I lost it. DOH!

But in general it was:

Lets look at the weapons you picked out there and how hard they are to get for a newer player:

Shroud item---Need about 20+ runs to construct a Lit II
Enduring Conviction---While not highly sought after, people do roll on it when it is up for grabs. That and this raid still fails a decent amount with pugs. Figure in about 20 runs you could get one
Cannith Crafted---This requires a STUPID amount of items and time to get to that level. The grind required for it is extreamly high.
Epic Weapons---Need to be level 20 to use and level 20 to run to get the ingrediants. Not only that, but you need the item, a seal, a shard and a scroll. If it is a rare scroll like an epic Sos....a newer player won't have enough to trade for one. The grind required to make some of these items is also very high....especially on how sought after the item is
Alchamial weapons---You need to beat LoB on epic to get all the ingrediants you want for this. Not an easy task...even for fully geared vets of the game. Very challenging.

This weapon drops from a higher level raid that can be soloed by a variety of builds. It isn't that hard. Not only that, but for it to be truely effective, it needs to be in the hands of a paladin. When you run most missions, there are only one or two in it. That means if someone pulls it, odds are it will be passed to said paladin. Odds are, you will get one in less than 20 runs....unless the make it like a chattering ring drop rate...but I don't see them doing that either.

It should be an easier "higher end" sword for some newer players to get. Yes, the base damage isn't good, but the other effects can help make up for that. It doesn't seem like they wanted it to be a DPS king of a weapon...it seems like they wanted it to be a sort of all around weapon that can debuff and do extra damage via holy/light effects. In the hands of a pure paladin, it will do 17d6 points of damage on a crit. On a kotc, it will do more. That isn't horrible. And like I said, it needs a base damage modifier if they want more people to use it besides newer paladins.

[Thrudh]

What they lack in DPS they can more than make up in survivability. It is a trade off...not all classes should be able to out DPS a frenzied barb with an epic SoS.

Except with silver flame pots, barbs have just as much survivability. Sad.

[elraido]

Except with silver flame pots, barbs have just as much survivability. Sad.

Way to blow that theory out of the water...thanks!!!!!

[mystafyi]

Shroud item---Need about 20+ runs to construct a Lit II

As of U12 the time required to get enough mats will drastically be reduced. Just by running it on normal will give you an extra mat from end reward. hard and elite will also have more chests in part 5.

edited to fix quotes

[elraido]

Shroud item---Need about 20+ runs to construct a Lit II

As of U12 the time required to get enough mats will drastically be reduced. Just by running it on normal will give you an extra mat from end reward. hard and elite will also have more chests in part 5.[/QUOTE]

It will give extra materials...yes. But you aren't guaranteed a large as and end reward...let alone getting a stone or a scale. I have enough large horns to kill a horse. They aren't doing me a whole lot of good.

[Matuse]

As of U12 the time required to get enough mats will drastically be reduced. Just by running it on normal will give you an extra mat from end reward. hard and elite will also have more chests in part 5.

I wouldn't count on larges showing up in the Shroud end reward very often. I'd be surprised if it was more often than 1:6 completions.

[Seamonkeysix]

I'm waiting to see the heavy repeater from Hound which shoots xoriat bees......

Even better when an artificer is in the party. Then you get FIRE BEES, ACID BEES, FROST BEES or SHOCKING BEES!!!!

(Not to mention silver bees, which are lovely )

[Scarecrow9]

new suggestion:

what if the paladin spell holy sword affected it as well? added silver and byshek dr breaking, pro evil wen weilded (meh, immune to command etc) and added holy or pure good or some such? isnt the spell component a cold iron weapon for ingred anyway? (and yes i know its a certain type, but add this to the list)

[Iwinbyrollup]

It's a garbage sword. That it's okay if you can't manage to get anything better is hardly a shining endorsement. It's useful only in an extremely small niche, and this is on a class that is already criticized for being too specialized. The paladin niche is bigger than this weapon's niche! And to top it off, even within that niche it's far from the best you can manage. It wouldn't be a problem if it wasn't supposed to be an iconic paladin weapon.

My paladin is a scimitar user. Ran the math, and this comes out around 5 to-hit and 10 points of damage lower than the crafted weapons I have to use against chaotic outsiders. And yes, while those are difficult-to-get weapons, this fares only slightly better than a +4 Holy Cold Iron Scimitar of Chaotic Outsider Bane and still has worse to-hit. I didn't run the numbers for a Khopesh, but presumably the +4 Holy Chaotic Outsider Bane would be doing more damage per hit than the Divine Vengeance--and still have better to-hit.

Currently I see VoD on any difficulty about as frequently as I see hard/elite Shrouds. When U12 hits, I expect to see a lot more hard/elite Shrouds. But elite VoD? We've seen two new items so far. Both fit into a very small niche, and neither is a best-of-slot must-have item. I don't expect to see it run all that often.

At the very least, the weapon's name should be changed. Remove all similarity to the Holy Avenger and at least that way we might not feel like we're getting cheated out of something that should actually be a good weapon.

It's a bit disheartening when one of my favorite classes gets a "boost" and the only thing I think is that it might be time to TR into a different class because of it.

[Infiltraitor]

Even better when an artificer is in the party. Then you get FIRE BEES, ACID BEES, FROST BEES or SHOCKING BEES!!!!

(Not to mention silver bees, which are lovely )

You forgot
New Bees
Bay Bees
and Walla Bees.

[Havok.cry]

My only real thoughts on the matter of this sword is: its not actualy called holy avenger... so maybe their is still hope we'll get a real holy avenger.

edit: read: awesome sword of doom
edit2: and no I do not mean a sword with the prefix of awesome that has a clicky of doom on it
edit3: unless that is the type of doom that breaks the game.. not the spell
edit4: except if it is that it should "work" not be broken
edit5: beware about to enter wordplay logic loop of death

[noinfo]

Way to blow that theory out of the water...thanks!!!!!

But unfortunately its true.

[Hurak]

And how many pots did the healers have to use to keep those three people up? The HP minimum stated is to make the healers heals more efficient, so they can last through the entire fight without having to drink for your victory.

A 300 HP individual will barely survive 2 swipes from Velah, while higher HP people can survive 3-4. Low HP people can end up doubling a healer's SP usage, for little positive benefit.

Went in with 3 healers who healed in series, simple. No extra pots were used, fight didn't drag out any longer than normal. Rather than trying to debunk posters, think differently from the given.