New Elite VoD Loot

[Angelus_dead]

actually thats not correct. read the description on the greater dispel effect, its protective buffs are removed, not the debuffs the enemy gets from destruction improved destruction etc etc etc. so those wont be affected.

A technically precise reading of the description on the item does not indicate that non-protective spells are not removed.

A familiarity with the functionality of Dispel Magic in DDO also suggests that it will remove all kinds of spells; and knowledge of monster stats indicates that their defensive buffs will only rarely be the ones that get removed.

[Khellendros13]

Divine Vengeance is ****, unless as a Marilith beater.


+5 Holyburst Silver/Cold Iron Khopesh of Greater Lawful/Chaotic Outsider Bane
+40dmg mod before bane effect, Seeker +6, 10% doublestrike
Final Averaged Swing
97.35 = 75.98 + 21.37

or Longsword version
Final Averaged Swing
85.36 = 63.99 + 21.37

Divine Vengeance
+40dmg mod, Seeker +6, 10% doublestrike
81.26 = 58.93 + 22.33

How about a 2d6 base, x3 crit version?
Final Averaged Swing
96.09 = 73.76 + 22.33

EDIT: Lit2 is still beating both of these for trash, even Devil trash (unless the to hit from the Bane helps)

[Elaril]

Divineavengerfailloller

[Perspicacity]

Yes, it'll probably be a single target dispel on the monster that doesn't hit your own party's buffs.

But releasing monsters from Destruction, Improved Destruction, Hold Monster, Ray of Enfeeblement, Ray of Exhaustion, Symbol of Pain, and Irresistable Dance is going to reduce the effectiveness of your teammates.

Actually in the description it does say specifically "protective spells" are we absolutely sure it dispels debuffs as well as buffs?

[MeliCat]

trying to understand this greater dispell effect.

from the wiki "You must make a caster level check of 1d20+your caster level (Maximum caster level 20.) of DC 11+spell's caster level to remove an effect. "

So say I roll a 20 when I hit this mob in hard weap ship or whatever. And let's assume that this mob has CL 30 (I am told this is not an unresonable assumption as mob CL are much much higher than player CL and that that mob CL <> CR level. also to be clear this is the CL of the mob that *cast* the spell on the mob you're hitting whether or not they targetted themselves) and I'm on a pure pally.

20 + 20 < 11 + 30 roundabouts.

ie *totally* useless... and as A_D said most likely worse than useless in a lot of cases.


bad bad bad bad bad



I predict party booting based on anyone carrying this in myDDO. Please devs, this is not fair to newer players who may see this and go 'oh cool!!!!!' It's like a very nasty newb trick on something that is a much beloved item from PnP. Please change it. It's not fair on newer players.

[Angelus_dead]

Yo dawg I heard you like to debuff bosses, so I put a dispel on my sword so you can debuff after you debuff.

Actually in the description it does say specifically "protective spells" are we absolutely sure it dispels debuffs as well as buffs?

Actually the description says multiple things.

It says that Greater Dispel Magic happens, and also that protective spells are removed. But Greater Dispel Magic removes both harmful and helpful spells, and the item description never says that it'd got a special version of GDM which doesn't do that. (And if it did do that, then it wouldn't be accurate to even call it "Greater Dispel Magic").

[Khellendros13]

trying to understand this greater dispell effect.

from the wiki "You must make a caster level check of 1d20+your caster level (Maximum caster level 20.) of DC 11+spell's caster level to remove an effect. "

So say I roll a 20 when I hit this mob in hard weap ship or whatever. And let's assume that this mob has CL 30 (I am told this is not an unresonable assumption as mob CL are much much higher than player CL and that that mob CL <> CR level. also to be clear this is the CL of the mob that *cast* the spell on the mob you're hitting whether or not they targetted themselves) and I'm on a pure pally.

20 + 20 < 11 + 30 roundabouts.

ie *totally* useless... and as A_D said most likely worse than useless in a lot of cases.


bad bad bad bad bad



I predict party booting based on anyone carrying this in myDDO. Please devs, this is not fair to newer players who may see this and go 'oh cool!!!!!' It's like a very nasty newb trick on something that is a much beloved item from PnP. Please change it. It's not fair on newer players.

Actually unless you have Lit2 or cannith crafted Devil/Demon beaters, it is decent. It just sucks when compared crafted Khopesh, Cannith and Greensteel.

Reasonable trash beater. We can craft new GS for new toons so when compared to that, yea it sucks.

[MeliCat]

Actually unless you have Lit2 or cannith crafted Devil/Demon beaters, it is decent. It just sucks when compared crafted Khopesh, Cannith and Greensteel.

Reasonable trash beater. We can craft new GS for new toons so when compared to that, yea it sucks.

Did you mean to quote me?

I was only working out for myself this greater dispel thing - not paying attention to anything else.

But as A_D says maybe it's not the *real* greater dispell but a modification.

Go get one and test Splatsplat!!

[sirgog]

I think paladins need that more so in the form of a pre upgrade.

That or add epic vod, and make that thing +10.

A a simple drop from whats imo not a very challenging raid (VoD elite is nothing more then "Have X stats - wins" or "dont? lose", it cant really get that much power.

I think it would of been more fun if you got a base version in vod, then needed hound elite to get something to "finish it" if you needed both raids elited to get it, that would be a fair way to balance it and give it more power.

VOD isn't a gear/stat check at all, it's a healer skill test.

IMO the Avenger's base damage should be somewhat higher - maybe 2d12 - or alternately it should have a substantially higher To-Hit (maybe an enhancement bonus of 8 to 10 for a capstone paladin). Alignment bursts are a lot of DPS on a Khopesh or Scimitar, but do quite a bit less on a longsword. Also Paladins TWFing have major to-hit issues.

Fixing one of those issues with the weapon will make it great for chaotic evil outsiders - currently a narrow niche, but we will (hopefully) return to Amrath one day.

Also, really hope that dispel proc doesn't dispel DoTs, Shield of Condemnation debuffs, Waves of Exhaustion and the like...

[sirgog]

trying to understand this greater dispell effect.

from the wiki "You must make a caster level check of 1d20+your caster level (Maximum caster level 20.) of DC 11+spell's caster level to remove an effect. "

So say I roll a 20 when I hit this mob in hard weap ship or whatever. And let's assume that this mob has CL 30 (I am told this is not an unresonable assumption as mob CL are much much higher than player CL and that that mob CL <> CR level. also to be clear this is the CL of the mob that *cast* the spell on the mob you're hitting whether or not they targetted themselves) and I'm on a pure pally.

20 + 20 < 11 + 30 roundabouts.

ie *totally* useless... and as A_D said most likely worse than useless in a lot of cases.


bad bad bad bad bad



I predict party booting based on anyone carrying this in myDDO. Please devs, this is not fair to newer players who may see this and go 'oh cool!!!!!' It's like a very nasty newb trick on something that is a much beloved item from PnP. Please change it. It's not fair on newer players.

I know some medium level mobs drink Haste potions (mostly Ogres and Trolls) that are caster level 5.

Not sure if higher level ones do the same, I've never paid attention as those types of mobs are usually so easy.

[Khellendros13]

Did you mean to quote me?

I was only working out for myself this greater dispel thing - not paying attention to anything else.

But as A_D says maybe it's not the *real* greater dispell but a modification.

Go get one and test Splatsplat!!

Yea I was quoting you Mel. I honestly do not think Paladins will be booted for using this. In fact, if I see these on Pally's in ToD, Shroud, Epic Chrono, even Epic VoN6 (Velah is Chaotic Evil) I can be sure the DPS is going to be decent or somewhat close to Lit2 and Cove Scimitars.

I do indeed plan to get a pair for Splat, as Demon beaters. It looks pretty cool too

Just make them 2d6 x3 with a Suppressed Power that can be unlocked like ToD rings, but with stuff like Improved Destruction, dmg procs (lit2, Disint), Paralysing, Vorpal etc.

That would equalize them with Lit2 in a Paladins hands, but address the lack of to hit and make them quite fun to use.

[MeliCat]

Yea I was quoting you Mel. I honestly do not think Paladins will be booted for using this. In fact, if I see these on Pally's in ToD, Shroud, Epic Chrono, even Epic VoN6 (Velah is Chaotic Evil) I can be sure the DPS is going to be decent or somewhat close to Lit2 and Cove Scimitars.

I do indeed plan to get a pair for Splat, as Demon beaters. It looks pretty cool too

Just make them 2d6 x3 with a Suppressed Power that can be unlocked like ToD rings, but with stuff like Improved Destruction, dmg procs (lit2, Disint), Paralysing, Vorpal etc.

That would equalize them with Lit2 in a Paladins hands, but address the lack of to hit and make them quite fun to use.

kk.

lots of VOD elites come U12 then. PREPARE THE GREASE CLICKIES!

[Auran82]

IMO the Avenger's base damage should be somewhat higher - maybe 2d12 - or alternately it should have a substantially higher To-Hit (maybe an enhancement bonus of 8 to 10 for a capstone paladin). Alignment bursts are a lot of DPS on a Khopesh or Scimitar, but do quite a bit less on a longsword. Also Paladins TWFing have major to-hit issues.

Maybe it could get an attack bonus ability similar to that assasin weapon from sentinals (midnight greetings?) where its attack bonus is equal to half the number of Paladin levels you possess (min +5)

And give an anthem like ability that slowly regens your LoH.

And do something about either the base damage, crit range or crit multiplier (or a combo of these) maybe give it stats similar to the cove scimitar (18-20, 2d6 base)

[Khellendros13]

Maybe it could get an attack bonus ability similar to that assasin weapon from sentinals (midnight greetings?) where its attack bonus is equal to half the number of Paladin levels you possess (min +5)

And give an anthem like ability that slowly regens your LoH.

And do something about either the base damage, crit range or crit multiplier (or a combo of these) maybe give it stats similar to the cove scimitar (18-20, 2d6 base)

Nice ideas

DoS - Regen LoH

KotC - Faster regen on smites (30 -45 seconds?)

HotD - Regen Turns

[Shade]

VOD isn't a gear/stat check at all, it's a healer skill test.
.

um the healer could be the best in the game and still fail if the group lacks proper dps gear.

It's most definetely gear check, hell its the prime example of one. You dont need much skill to toss heal scrolls and the odd heal or remove curse. Better timing = less deaths, sure.. But death in vod elite means very little, recovery is easy. I died a couple times on our run, mainly due to lack of any debuff what so ever and poor dps vs trash, but was back up again, fully buffed and tanking in under 20 seconds. One healer mentions it was his very first time ever healing the raid, the other didn specify but dont htink he was particularly experienced. They did fine, just got distracted during the franctic trash waves.

When I can take all new players, and say - Everyone go nuts, zero strategy, and have no fear of failing, its a gear check, Nothing more, nothing less. It's a poorly designed raid for that reason, and a reason noobs like it, and i dont.

Really glad the new loot from it doesnt interest me, dont wanna run more on live.

Hope hound elite loot is awesome tho, its the exact oposite. Gear matters a little, but skill and strategy are king.

[Perspicacity]

um the healer could be the best in the game and still fail if the group lacks proper dps gear.

I have to disagree with this, I have seen healers solo VoD. If a healers is good enough the party becomes little more than cannon fodder, regardless of gear.

Hope hound elite loot is awesome tho, its the exact oposite. Gear matters a little, but skill and strategy are king.

Completely agree with this though.

[Infiltraitor]

Maybe it could get an attack bonus ability similar to that assasin weapon from sentinals (midnight greetings?) where its attack bonus is equal to half the number of Paladin levels you possess (min +5)

And give an anthem like ability that slowly regens your LoH.

And do something about either the base damage, crit range or crit multiplier (or a combo of these) maybe give it stats similar to the cove scimitar (18-20, 2d6 base)

Even with all those changes, the only avenger that will be any good is Samuel L Jackson.

If the holy avenger is to be any use other than vendortrash, it will need to:

Break DR
Contribute DPS
Not require a ****-ton of feats to be any good on a feat-starved class.

I'm secretly wishing for:

Holy Avenger
Randomly any of the racial weapons and any of the paladin follower of the X weapons.
+5 Enhancement
Metalline
Aligned
You regenerate Smite Evils at 1 every 12 seconds.
Craftable +10 (So much potential with craftable rune arm effect being wasted. Going to bring this up whenever possible)

[weewoo0]

Even with all those changes, the only avenger that will be any good is Samuel L Jackson.

If the holy avenger is to be any use other than vendortrash, it will need to:

Break DR
Contribute DPS
Not require a ****-ton of feats to be any good on a feat-starved class.

I'm secretly wishing for:

Holy Avenger
Randomly any of the racial weapons and any of the paladin follower of the X weapons.
+5 Enhancement
Metalline
Aligned
You regenerate Smite Evils at 1 every 12 seconds.
Craftable +10 (So much potential with craftable rune arm effect being wasted. Going to bring this up whenever possible)

now see. i'm not extremely familiar with cannith crafting on pre-gen loot but: wouldn't that actually be less dps. -_-
(at least towards the intended enemy: demons it seems)

[Shade]

Divine Vengeance is ****, unless as a Marilith beater.


+5 Holyburst Silver/Cold Iron Khopesh of Greater Lawful/Chaotic Outsider Bane
+40dmg mod before bane effect, Seeker +6, 10% doublestrike
Final Averaged Swing (against queen lailat)
97.35 = 75.98 + 21.37

or Longsword version
Final Averaged Swing
85.36 = 63.99 + 21.37

Divine Vengeance
+40dmg mod, Seeker +6, 10% doublestrike
81.26 = 58.93 + 22.33

How about a 2d6 base, x3 crit version?
Final Averaged Swing
96.09 = 73.76 + 22.33

erm think u did the numbers wrong in barrage, or at least forgot lailats 80% fortificaiton.. Here's what I got (well with 75% fort, barrage only allows 25pnt increments):
HobGCHOB Khopesh:
Final Averaged Swing
71.25 = 51.825(Weapon) + 19.425(Bonus)

Holy Avenger:
Final Averaged Swing
65.4 = 45.1(Weapon) + 20.3(Bonus)

didnt do the double strike, but that wont change it more then a couple percent. Otherwised follows ur figures (40dmg mod, seeker 6)

Im thinking you forgot radiance dmg too..

Holy Avenger has more bonus dice, and thus better base dmg, and does better vs higher fort:
4d6 non crit vs 5d6..
makes up for it on crits:
both on a 17 (IC used)
4d6 on burst khopesh
Divine avenger:
3d6 +3d6 on double burst = 6d6
4d6 on radiance = 10d6
= 31.5 vs 49 total bonus dice. (for average see above)

So yea khopesh wins, by a small margin. But a simple raid loot drop, vs a expensive, long grind, maxxed out crafted weapon. Seems mostly fair, not every pally that runs DQ2 epic has the ~60ish crafting lvl u need to make that.

Mostly I think khopeshs are broken tho. But far too late in the game to change that.

[sirgog]

um the healer could be the best in the game and still fail if the group lacks proper dps gear.

It's most definetely gear check, hell its the prime example of one. You dont need much skill to toss heal scrolls and the odd heal or remove curse. Better timing = less deaths, sure.. But death in vod elite means very little, recovery is easy. I died a couple times on our run, mainly due to lack of any debuff what so ever and poor dps vs trash, but was back up again, fully buffed and tanking in under 20 seconds. One healer mentions it was his very first time ever healing the raid, the other didn specify but dont htink he was particularly experienced. They did fine, just got distracted during the franctic trash waves.

When I can take all new players, and say - Everyone go nuts, zero strategy, and have no fear of failing, its a gear check, Nothing more, nothing less. It's a poorly designed raid for that reason, and a reason noobs like it, and i dont.

Really glad the new loot from it doesnt interest me, dont wanna run more on live.

Hope hound elite loot is awesome tho, its the exact oposite. Gear matters a little, but skill and strategy are king.

The people that have soloed VOD (including myself) have much, much, MUCH lower DPS than the total raidwide DPS of the groups that fail it.

If it's a gear check, the naked run (can't equip any items except to your hands) I ran would have autofailed.

Avoid unnecessary damage at all costs, conserve healing SP, manage tank curses and control Suulo's aggro - if you know how to do that, the raid is easy with any gear level. Including with a whole raid that has taken off their Con, GFL and fortification items.


Gear does let you complete with poor strategies, however - something that isn't true of some other raids like HoX or LoB.