New arrows type in House D

[kaobang]

Hello,

I would suggest to add bludgeoning and slashing (crotch) arrows in house D (same as silver/cold iron ...).
Due to the fact that range damage is much lower than other type of damage, I don't see it unbalanced.

Thank you for reading.

[ssgcmwatson]

Good idea... anything to help out bow users would be great.

[wax_on_wax_off]

No simply because requiring different damage types is one of the few ways that you can force rangers who refuse to put down their bows to actually change weapons and learn a thing or two about the balance between melee and ranged combat that exists in DDO for good reason.

If you're a ranger you have TWF'ing feats. Use them.

[BOgre]

No simply because requiring different damage types is one of the few ways that you can force rangers who refuse to put down their bows to actually change weapons and learn a thing or two about the balance between melee and ranged combat that exists in DDO for good reason.

If you're a ranger you have TWF'ing feats. Use them.

Tempest v AA/DwS. Not really what we're talking about, but thanks for trolling by.

As for budgeoning/slashing, it's been discussed. Most RANGE-ers agree that bringing those types of arrows to the table is a good idea. They exist in reality, and there's really no reason a skilled d'Deneith bowman would not have thought of it, developed it, perfected it. The only things I'd add is that bludeoners should have decreased range and to-hit, and equipping a slash/bludgeon should deactivate IPS. That is, only piercers should be able to pierce, pen, and carry on. Alternately, bludgeon and slash could be made AA and DwS enhancements, like an imbue. That would help simulate the extra training required to master accurately firing a big rock on a stick...

[Thlargir]

Alternately, bludgeon and slash could be made AA and DwS enhancements, like an imbue. That would help simulate the extra training required to master accurately firing a big rock on a stick...

+1 for actual contributions to the thread...

I like this better as UI limitations on range might not allow your earlier suggestion to work effectively. However, probably more coding implications...

I wonder if bolts should include similar choices?

[BOgre]

I wonder if bolts should include similar choices?

hmm. bolts. my initial reaction would be no, just thinking of how r.l. xbows work, but that's pretty narrow minded... I'd say in a magic world, there's no reason not to be able to imbue a magic bolt with bludgeon or slash. So, yeah, sure. If it's a trainable enhancement, then it should certainly apply to all missiles. And of course Arties, able to tinker anything they want on the spot, should have no trouble making a bludgeoning or slashing bolt.

[Jendrak]

hmm. bolts. my initial reaction would be no, just thinking of how r.l. xbows work, but that's pretty narrow minded... I'd say in a magic world, there's no reason not to be able to imbue a magic bolt with bludgeon or slash. So, yeah, sure. If it's a trainable enhancement, then it should certainly apply to all missiles. And of course Arties, able to tinker anything they want on the spot, should have no trouble making a bludgeoning or slashing bolt.

While I also support the idea of AA's being able to imbue bludg/slash dmg I would have to say no to bolts.

This is because the precident has already been set that AA enchantments dont work at all with crossbows. Also, with repeater builds and espically arties i think this would go toooo far and actually push regular bows even further down the chain due to the rate of fire issue between the two.

And before somebody say anything about manyshot, thats burst dps that is only used to its fullest against large groups or high HP named mobs where a a repeater is more balanced dps against all mobs.

[Alternative]

If you're a ranger you have TWF'ing feats. Use them.

And what if you're an artificer? They should be twf'ing too?

[wax_on_wax_off]

Tempest v AA/DwS. Not really what we're talking about, but thanks for trolling by.

As for budgeoning/slashing, it's been discussed. Most RANGE-ers agree that bringing those types of arrows to the table is a good idea. They exist in reality, and there's really no reason a skilled d'Deneith bowman would not have thought of it, developed it, perfected it. The only things I'd add is that bludeoners should have decreased range and to-hit, and equipping a slash/bludgeon should deactivate IPS. That is, only piercers should be able to pierce, pen, and carry on. Alternately, bludgeon and slash could be made AA and DwS enhancements, like an imbue. That would help simulate the extra training required to master accurately firing a big rock on a stick...

I'm not trolling. I'm pointing out a possible positive outcome of RANGE-ers not being able to break all DR just with their bow (which is that they might discover that they have TWF'ing feats which many don't seem to know).

What a big surprise that RANGE-ers think that giving them more way to break DR with their bow would be a good idea. However, this affects more people than just them. If you give them this, wouldn't it be reasonable to give melees the ability to combine DR breakers in a similar fashion that archers can use metal arrows on an aligned bow? Or should archers through and through be superior at breaking DR in every situation?

Would melees even be allowed into epic wiz king or elite SoS when you can just have an archer pew-pew the lich while dodging all the spells?

And what if you're an artificer? They should be twf'ing too?

Artificers have about the biggest box of tricks around. If you can't figure out a way to get what you want done then you aren't trying hard enough.

Any ranged character build should be able to swap to a melee weapon and be reasonably effective through twitching or just utilising the free feats that have been given to their class.

[BOgre]

I'm not trolling. I'm pointing out a possible positive outcome of RANGE-ers not being able to break all DR just with their bow (which is that they might discover that they have TWF'ing feats which many don't seem to know).

What a big surprise that RANGE-ers think that giving them more way to break DR with their bow would be a good idea. However, this affects more people than just them. If you give them this, wouldn't it be reasonable to give melees the ability to combine DR breakers in a similar fashion that archers can use metal arrows on an aligned bow?

Huh? you mean like fighting a Clay golem with a True Law Adamantine Maul, or any good+silver for devils? Are you kidding with that question?

Or should archers through and through be superior at breaking DR in every situation?

Would melees even be allowed into epic wiz king or elite SoS when you can just have an archer pew-pew the lich while dodging all the spells?

That's kind of a ridiculous oversimplification. Does a barb not switch out his axe for a maul when fighting skells? Does a caster not use specific spells based on the enemy and situation? I don't think bringing ranged characters into line with the rest of the classes makes them 'superior' in any way. And we're not talking about about a massive boost here either. A few DR points one way or the other is minimal, but it would be a nice option.

Oh, and again, we're not just talking about Rangers here, so your twf feats argument is misplaced. We're talking about any class that may choose to spec their physical damage for ranged combat.

[wax_on_wax_off]

That's kind of a ridiculous oversimplification. Does a barb not switch out his axe for a maul when fighting skells? Does a caster not use specific spells based on the enemy and situation? I don't think bringing ranged characters into line with the rest of the classes makes them 'superior' in any way. And we're not talking about about a massive boost here either. A few DR points one way or the other is minimal, but it would be a nice option.

Oh, and again, we're not just talking about Rangers here, so your twf feats argument is misplaced. We're talking about any class that may choose to spec their physical damage for ranged combat.

A few DR points do matter when talking about Lich DR (your suggestion would completely rebalance epic/normal wizking, SoS and other quests with liches as it would be so simple to snipe them and dodge their spells with a ranged weapon).

Any non-ranger archer can be versatile enough to deal with DR. For starters, many archer builds already take 6 levels of ranger for the free feats so have ITWF for free. For everyone else, twitching a maul or greatsword is a fine option and will produce similar (single target) DPS to a fully melee specced THF'er (class abilities not included).

Sure, you often won't have melee feats like power attack on, for instance, a cleric/FvS build but you've got more than just weapons in your bag of tricks. Divine Punishment and Blade Barrier work nicely.

As to this^, consider this problem:

Was soloing Rest for the Restless with my lowbie barb the other night. Parked my hire to open the gate, ran ahead and killed the skells on the ground, and of course now faced a bit of a pickle in the form of the 2 skelly archers up on the ledge. I'm a barb, I have no ranged skills whatsoever, and only had a handfull of hammers to throw. By your logic, any melee character build should be able to swap to a ranged weapon and be reasonably effective... Soooo, where are my barbs free ranged feats again? No, he's a specialist. Close combat is his game and he's pretty crappy at ranged. A ranged combat specced toon is a specialist, and aside from Tempests, they're pretty crappy up close (actually Tempests are pretty crappy too, when compared to 'Real' melees). So what we're calling for is a fleshing out of the ranged character's tools-of-trade. Being against this would be like saying Barbs can only use axes (or slash type weapons), and Elves can never pick up a club... Silly. Redonkulous.

Who kills archer skeletons? I gave up on killing them a long time ago, just move on ...
If you have to kill them then you'll notice that with hammers you are getting your full strength modifier to throw them. That's a significant amount of damage. All you need is a returning one and you're pretty much sorted.

There's even a specific feat been put into the game to facilitate a fighter or barbarian being able to throw a weapon better (brutal throw) though obviously barbarians are tight on feats (more appropriate for a more *versatile* class like a fighter who can also take quickdraw).

[wax_on_wax_off]

That's kind of a ridiculous oversimplification. Does a barb not switch out his axe for a maul when fighting skells? Does a caster not use specific spells based on the enemy and situation? I don't think bringing ranged characters into line with the rest of the classes makes them 'superior' in any way. And we're not talking about about a massive boost here either. A few DR points one way or the other is minimal, but it would be a nice option.

Oh, and again, we're not just talking about Rangers here, so your twf feats argument is misplaced. We're talking about any class that may choose to spec their physical damage for ranged combat.

A few DR points do matter when talking about Lich DR (your suggestion would completely rebalance epic/normal wizking, SoS and other quests with liches as it would be so simple to snipe them and dodge their spells with a ranged weapon).

Any non-ranger archer can be versatile enough to deal with DR. For starters, many archer builds already take 6 levels of ranger for the free feats so have ITWF for free. For everyone else, twitching a maul or greatsword is a fine option and will produce similar (single target) DPS to a fully melee specced THF'er (class abilities not included).

Sure, you often won't have melee feats like power attack on, for instance, a cleric/FvS build but you've got more than just weapons in your bag of tricks. Divine Punishment and Blade Barrier work nicely.

As to this^, consider this problem:

Was soloing Rest for the Restless with my lowbie barb the other night. Parked my hire to open the gate, ran ahead and killed the skells on the ground, and of course now faced a bit of a pickle in the form of the 2 skelly archers up on the ledge. I'm a barb, I have no ranged skills whatsoever, and only had a handfull of hammers to throw. By your logic, any melee character build should be able to swap to a ranged weapon and be reasonably effective... Soooo, where are my barbs free ranged feats again? No, he's a specialist. Close combat is his game and he's pretty crappy at ranged. A ranged combat specced toon is a specialist, and aside from Tempests, they're pretty crappy up close (actually Tempests are pretty crappy too, when compared to 'Real' melees). So what we're calling for is a fleshing out of the ranged character's tools-of-trade. Being against this would be like saying Barbs can only use axes (or slash type weapons), and Elves can never pick up a club... Silly. Redonkulous.

Who kills archer skeletons? I gave up on killing them a long time ago, just move on ...
If you have to kill them then you'll notice that with hammers you are getting your full strength modifier to throw them. That's a significant amount of damage. All you need is a returning one and you're pretty much sorted.

There's even a specific feat been put into the game to facilitate a fighter or barbarian being able to throw a weapon better (brutal throw) though obviously barbarians are tight on feats (more appropriate for a more *versatile* class like a fighter who can also take quickdraw).

[BOgre]

Any ranged character build should be able to swap to a melee weapon and be reasonably effective through twitching or just utilising the free feats that have been given to their class.

As to this^, consider this problem:

Was soloing Rest for the Restless with my lowbie barb the other night. Parked my hire to open the gate, ran ahead and killed the skells on the ground, and of course now faced a bit of a pickle in the form of the 2 skelly archers up on the ledge. I'm a barb, I have no ranged skills whatsoever, and only had a handfull of hammers to throw. By your logic, any melee character build should be able to swap to a ranged weapon and be reasonably effective... Soooo, where are my barbs free ranged feats again? No, he's a specialist. Close combat is his game and he's pretty crappy at ranged. A ranged combat specced toon is a specialist, and aside from Tempests, they're pretty crappy up close (actually Tempests are pretty crappy too, when compared to 'Real' melees). So what we're calling for is a fleshing out of the ranged character's tools-of-trade. Being against this would be like saying Barbs can only use axes (or slash type weapons), and Elves can never pick up a club... Silly. Redonkulous.

[Vellrad]

No simply because requiring different damage types is one of the few ways that you can force rangers who refuse to put down their bows to actually change weapons and learn a thing or two about the balance between melee and ranged combat that exists in DDO for good reason.

If you're a ranger you have TWF'ing feats. Use them.

Yes because people creating archers do it only fo TWF.

[Jendrak]

No simply because requiring different damage types is one of the few ways that you can force rangers who refuse to put down their bows to actually change weapons and learn a thing or two about the balance between melee and ranged combat that exists in DDO for good reason.

If you're a ranger you have TWF'ing feats. Use them.

This is great because we all know only rangers use a bow..........WAIT A MINUTE!?!.......*looks through all the kensai/AA, Bard/AA builds on the forums that dont have any ranger lvls*..........nevermind

As, for adding bludgeon and slashing arrows this has been overdue for a long time. Not being able to break dr as effectivly as melee has been a huge factor in the crippeling of ranged combat ever since they changed transmuting into metalline and aligned. I would even be in favor of adding it as 400 favor, or what ever the next tier is, reward given that House D favor is already heavily ranged related. This has been suggested before and I hope its an idea whos time has come.

[altrocks]

Complaining about the unfinished deck on a burning house in this thread.

Yeah, ranged combat needs help... a lot of help. This would be a nice flavor/additional option to put in, but I don't see it doing much of anything at all for the game or ranged toons. Physical damage types don't make a huge difference except to a very few mobs that have a little damage type DR. And it's hardly ever much DR to begin with.

How about finishing the DWS PrE line first? Or bringing ranged combat in-line damage-wise with at least melee? (Never mind caster DPS...)

I don't mind taking out a couple of scimitars now and then, but even specializing in ranged combat with a capped ranger... it's tough. I've managed to change a couple people's minds about what rangers can do, but it hasn't been easy.

Still, good suggestion and I like the idea to make IPS not work with it. Could be interesting if the Devs made use of the ability in some way, but at this point, ranged is hated more than Rogues.

[BOgre]

Complaining about the unfinished deck on a burning house in this thread.

Oh, yeh, I know. But better minds than mine have put forward lots of good suggestions to improving ranged in-general. Hope at least some of it gets heard.
As for changing ppl's minds re: ranged, I hear that. I'm Tempest, so I do rely on my khops 90% of the time, but i like to change it up on the lower difficulties and try to run dungeons bow-only. With the change to PointBlank, first thing I did was drop power attack and pick up ImpCritRanged I think a well built AA CAN be a range-er. And did I hear correctly that DwS IS getting it's next 2 tiers? If so, that'll be a happy day for my next life

But back on topic, although its a small change and not a dramatic improvement, bludgeon/slashing arrows would be great. Combine that with the changes I and others have suggested regarding quivers and hotbarring arrow types, and i think it would a nice layer of interaction for us pew pews. I'd love to be able to call out to a partner sniper "You take the skellies, I'll take the fleshies."

[R0cksteady]

With the way Rangers are, the only point to playing one is because they're good for ranged AND melee with either prestige.

Even AAs should be taking advantage of those TWF feats.

If you're only goign to use bows or TWF, you should just be a fighter anyway.

[BOgre]

That's wrong on so many levels I don't even know where to start. So I wont.

[Musouka]

I say yes to this suggestion, with some pork though.

Yes, but if this is implemented, get rid of dual spec. If a ranger can break all DR effectively with just a bow, they don't need TWF feats. Make them choose. If you want ranged damage at par with melee, then you don't need both.