Assassin2/Tempest1 or Assassin3?

[ImNotCrazy]

I had not been active for about a year...so I'm a bit rusty.

I'm working on a dwarven TWF assassin build
Starting stats:
STR 16
DEX 14
CON 16
INT 16
WIS 8
CHA 6
2 of my level up points will go to Int, one will go to dex (then i will have 17 with a +2 tome to get improved and greater TWF) and the last 2 will either go to Str, Dex, or Int

I'll either be going:
18 rogue/2 ranger (assassin3)
12 rogue/8 ranger (assassin2/tempest1)
12+ rogue/* ranger/* monk

The way I see it, I have more feats if don't go to 18 rogue, but then I have less sneak attack and lose the vorpal sneak attacks. All tips and opinions are welcome and appriciated!

[wax_on_wax_off]

I had not been active for about a year...so I'm a bit rusty.

I'm working on a dwarven TWF assassin build
Starting stats:
STR 16
DEX 14
CON 16
INT 16
WIS 8
CHA 6
2 of my level up points will go to Int, one will go to dex (then i will have 17 with a +2 tome to get improved and greater TWF) and the last 2 will either go to Str, Dex, or Int

I'll either be going:
18 rogue/2 ranger (assassin3)
12 rogue/8 ranger (assassin2/tempest1)
12+ rogue/* ranger/* monk

The way I see it, I have more feats if don't go to 18 rogue, but then I have less sneak attack and lose the vorpal sneak attacks. All tips and opinions are welcome and appriciated!

Vorpal sneak attacks are (have been?) boosted so you now get 100 bonus damage on vorpals on foes of 1000 HP. For this reason, I would definitely want at least 18 levels on rogue.

I see 2 viable builds.

First: Pure Rogue. You get the capstone which adds +2 intelligence and +4d6 sneak attack. This is some excellent DPS and gives maximum assassinate DC for all around awesomeness. If you plan to use weapons I would go this route.

Second: Monk splashed unarmed rogue. The boosted attack speed of unarmed attacks is the only way to (mostly) overcome the loss of capstone. 18-19 rogue / 1-2 monk / 0-1 fighter / 0-1 ranger makes up most of the options depending on the exact balance that you want to draw between pure DPS and secondary concerns like soloability. My preference is for a half-elf (fighter dilettante) 18 rogue / 2 monk build with stunning fist, stunning blow and improved sunder. The fighter enhancements give a nice boost to the DCs and versatility: damage (+25% damage) combined with rogue haste boost is brutal.

[Inferno346]

If you want to multiclass and really don't want a pure rogue, then I do like the Ravager builds that had fallen out of style after the current uber rogue capstone was introduced.

13 rogue Assassin/6 ranger Tempest/1 monk

This is because of the two new raids, which (along with elite tod) are the most challenging parts of the endgame currently:

Pillar DPS-- Manyshot is great for this.
Lord of Blades has 80% fort-- Not sure whether Ravager or pure is better vs. 80%, but it seems that Ravager should be.
A few more HPs-- these raids really favor high HP characters.
Titans like to run around annoyingly in Master Artificer if not controlled (IE most pug groups)-- manyshot is tends to be better DPS than melee here as well.

[Kinerd]

Tempest 1 puts you at negative 1 feats. You have to purchase Dodge, Mobility, and Spring Attack, and 6 (or 8) ranger only gets you TWF and ITWF.

I don't know why you want to go 18/2 over pure rogue. Is it to get free dwarven axe proficiency? It makes more DPS sense to just buy it (or khopesh) and get the +1d6 sneak attack from 19 and +4d6 from 20. You also get another rogue feat and +2 Intel. Your purchased feats would look like:

TWF
ITWF
GTWF
Exotic Weapon
Toughness
Improved Critical
Power Attack

Is there some other feat you really want?

I really don't get why you want to put two level-ups in Intel. Can you elaborate?

[ImNotCrazy]

Tempest 1 puts you at negative 1 feats. You have to purchase Dodge, Mobility, and Spring Attack, and 6 (or 8) ranger only gets you TWF and ITWF.

I don't know why you want to go 18/2 over pure rogue. Is it to get free dwarven axe proficiency? It makes more DPS sense to just buy it (or khopesh) and get the +1d6 sneak attack from 19 and +4d6 from 20. You also get another rogue feat and +2 Intel. Your purchased feats would look like:

TWF
ITWF
GTWF
Exotic Weapon
Toughness
Improved Critical
Power Attack

Is there some other feat you really want?

I really don't get why you want to put two level-ups in Intel. Can you elaborate?

Ranger level 2 grants TWF...and just being a dwarf grants the dwarven war axe feat. Correct me if I'm wrong...but on a TWF character that will be running around to hit thing that are distracted, wont I be greatly benefited by spring attack? Will my to hit be good enough with out it? Oh and the extra 2 points into INT were because I want to be able to disable any traps I find and have lots of skill points. I'm also not really sure where else to put them since the tome and level up point would bring me to 17 DEX, and then a +6 item would bring me to 23. I would then have 2 remaining ability points to put into either STR or INT or DEX
My end stats would look like(with a +6 item and +2 tome to each stat)...
STR 24 (26 if i put the last 2 points there)
DEX 23 (25 if i put the last 2 points there)
CON 24
INT 26 (28 if i put the last 2 points there)
WIS 16
CHA 14

If I went 2 ranger levels I would probably take:
improved TWF
greater TWF
oversized TWF
improved critical
weapon focus
greater weapon focus
toughness


Pure rogue sounds pretty **** good, but being pure class just feels so boring to me lol. I really like the sound of the 13 rogue assassin2/6 ranger tempest1/monk1

If I went 18 rogue/2 monk...
I would get toughness and TWF as martial arts feats and then take
improved TWF
greater TWF
oversized TWF
improved critical
dodge
mobility
spring attack


For 13 rogue/6 ranger/1 monk...
I would take toughness as a martial arts feat and then take
greater TWF
oversized TWF
improved critical
dodge
mobility
spring attack
weapon focus or power attack

As a pure rogue though I would probably take
TWF
improved TWF
greater TWF
oversized TWF
improved critical
weapon focus
toughness
I would also have an INT of between 28 and 30 with the capstone.

[karl_k0ch]

Ah. Dwarven Rogues.

In theory, the best sneak attack damage is delivered by pure rogues, but then, you need the DAxe proficiency from somewhere. Either from UMD'd Master's Touch Scrolls (pretty involved, indeed) or from picking up the feat (a rather bad feat choice).

Going 19/1 disclaims the capstone, but has all the Rogue goodies (4 special feats, assassin III), free proficiency, and either another feat (Fighter, for example Improved Shatter), a Rage clickie (Barbarian), +2 to damage/to-hit against one selected enemy class (ranger). Going 18/2 doesn't make much sense to me.

Another option is to splash deeper. While Tempest I lost some if its shine a while ago, +10% offhand damage is still a good DPS increase.
13/6/1 splits are the other reasonable split for rogue splashes. You can mix & match Fighter, Ranger and Barbarian for the 6 and 1. I'd probably go 6 Ranger, 1 Fighter.


Re: Your feat lists and build ideas.

Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon focus are no good feats. The latter can only be picked with fighter levels anyway.
Take Power Attack in any case.
Take Dodge/Moblity/Spring Attack only if you plan to take the Tempest I PrE.

I suggest to go Str-based, and put all level-ups there.
Pure Rogue is not boring at all. You have enough to do, and are very versatile.

[Arshan]

I'm not sure that tempest I is viable actually. I mean when you can afford spare feats like on a 12+ fighter, it's ok to go for 6 lvl of ranger for tempest I. But in the case of an assassin... tempest I = 3 feats, + STWF that you'll have to take yourself. But almost everyone said it already.

The best way, imo, to go tempest is to go Tempest II, cause you save your need of dext by a free TWF line.
It makes sense on the build in my signature, but for a rogue based build... you may want some dext (not speaking of dext based stuff !!! Just saying you may want more than 12 dext at start).

I'd recommend 18 lvl of rogue at least... but the capstone is too sexy ^^ 20 dwarven rogue pure str assassin is soooo great (imo just forget that extra intelligence ).

If you wanted some tempest stuff... i would say 12 ranger 7 rogue 1 fighter is prolly very funny. 1 monk instead of fighter works too.

I'm more proposing alternatives than answers to the main thread, but it may interest you

[karl_k0ch]

If you wanted some tempest stuff... i would say 12 ranger 7 rogue 1 fighter is prolly very funny. 1 monk instead of fighter works too.

Or 1 Barb. http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=313740

[Kmnh]

Why would you skip the 4d6 damage capstone?

if you are going for a flavor build, forget tempest and go 6 barb frenzied berserker.

Nothing scares a cleric as much as a frenzied rogue :P

[karl_k0ch]

Why would you skip the 4d6 damage capstone?

The main justification of not getting the capstone, and in particular 13/6 ranger/1 splashes is the following. Against FEs, you trade situational damage for unsituational damage.
You give up 8d6 = 28 points of sneak attack damage, and get +9 damage against favored enemies. (+1 Str + 2 Ram's + 4 FE + 2 Enh). For Favored Enemies with 65% Fort, or more, this is about the same when using DAxes. This does not yet include the additional DPS granted by the additional class, or the Tempest I Enhancement's +10% offhand chance.

18/2 trades 5d6 SA damage for +3 damage. This breaks even against FEs at roughly 82% fort.

These numbers assume that the Rogue has never aggro, i.e. they are biased in favor of the pure build.

[Kmnh]

The main justification of not getting the capstone, and in particular 13/6 ranger/1 splashes is the following:
You give up 8d6 = 28 points of sneak attack damage, and get +9 damage against favored enemies. (+1 Str + 2 Ram's + 4 FE + 2 Enh). For Favored Enemies with 65% Fort, or more, this is about the same when using DAxes. This does not yet include the additional DPS granted by the additional class, or the Tempest I Enhancement's +10% offhand chance.

18/2 trades 5d6 SA damage for +3 damage. This breaks even against FEs at roughly 82% fort.

These numbers assume that the Rogue has never aggro, i.e. they are biased in favor of the pure build.

OK, then going 6 or even 7 barb is a lot better. You get +2d6+1 (8) from frenzy, +3 from rage and +2 power attack. More than that if you go half-orc

Oh, and you did not take the +5 damage from vorpal hits into account

[karl_k0ch]

Oh, and you did not take the +5 damage from vorpal hits into account

Yeah, amongst others, I did forget those, too. Which I also did not account for: Opportunist applies to Critical Hits, but not to SA damage, which is a known issue.
For the original Ravager build, you can add +3 from Raging/PA from a single Barb level, which puts 6ran/1brb at similar levels as 7 barb against FEs.

I don't want to do a detailed calculation (as this would involve knowing the +damage due to the additional offhand proc), but I hope my main point is still transparent.

[ImNotCrazy]

Why would you skip the 4d6 damage capstone?

if you are going for a flavor build, forget tempest and go 6 barb frenzied berserker.

Nothing scares a cleric as much as a frenzied rogue :P

Haha that does sound like an awesome build idea, and I would probably do it if I liked rage more. I would probably only make use of it on a character with primarily barb levels...and also probably a warforged. I mostly don't like the vulnerability after rage ends.

Sooo I just finished my pure rogue plan

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.11.02
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 20 Lawful Good Dwarf Male
(20 Rogue) 
Hit Points: 302
Spell Points: 0 
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 11
Reflex: 16
Will: 6

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(32 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             16                    20
Dexterity            14                    18
Constitution         16                    20
Intelligence         16                    22
Wisdom                8                    10
Charisma              6                     8

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 1
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 1
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 1
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 1
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 1
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 1

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance               7                    21
Bluff                -1                    29
Concentration         4                     6
Diplomacy            -1                    23
Disable Device        8                    30
Haggle                3                    23
Heal                  1                     2
Hide                  7                    36
Intimidate           -1                     0
Jump                  8                    29
Listen                0                     1
Move Silently         7                    36
Open Lock             7                    29
Perform              n/a                    n/a
Repair                4                     7
Search                8                    32
Spot                  4                    26
Swim                  4                     6
Tumble                5                    23
Use Magic Device      3                    23

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I


Level 2 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Dwarven Spell Defense I
Enhancement: Improved Spot I
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I


Level 3 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Damage I
Enhancement: Dwarven Constitution I


Level 4 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost II
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy I


Level 5 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Improved Move Silently I
Enhancement: Improved Move Silently II
Enhancement: Improved Spot II


Level 6 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Dwarven Waraxe
Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Attack I
Enhancement: Improved Hide I
Enhancement: Improved Hide II


Level 7 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Assassin I


Level 8 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost II
Enhancement: Dwarven Spell Defense II


Level 9 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Oversized Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Dwarven Constitution II


Level 10 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Slippery Mind
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing II
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II


Level 11 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training II


Level 12 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy III
Enhancement: Rogue Wand and Scroll Mastery I


Level 13 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Improved Evasion
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training III


Level 14 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Dwarven Spell Defense III
Enhancement: Rogue Assassin II


Level 15 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Rogue Item Defense I
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing III


Level 16 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Defensive Roll
Enhancement: Racial Toughness III
Enhancement: Improved Open Lock I


Level 17 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Racial Toughness IV


Level 18 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy IV


Level 19 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Skill Mastery
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training IV


Level 20 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Deadly Shadow
Enhancement: Rogue Assassin III

I decided that if I would only take one monk level, and add a fighter level to it to get dwarven war axe AND the bonus feat at the expense of a a few saving throw points.

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.11.02
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 20 Lawful Good Dwarf Male
(1 Fighter \ 1 Monk \ 18 Rogue) 
Hit Points: 308
Spell Points: 0 
BAB: 14\14\19\24
Fortitude: 15
Reflex: 17
Will: 8

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(32 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             16                    20
Dexterity            14                    18
Constitution         16                    20
Intelligence         16                    20
Wisdom                8                    10
Charisma              6                     8

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 1
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 1
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 1
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 1
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 1
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 1

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance               3                    10
Bluff                 3                    28
Concentration         4                     5
Diplomacy             3                    21.5
Disable Device        8                    30
Haggle                3                    22
Heal                  0                     0
Hide                  7                    33.5
Intimidate           -1                    -1
Jump                  8                    28
Listen                0                     0
Move Silently         7                    31.5
Open Lock             7                    29
Perform              n/a                   n/a
Repair                4                     5
Search                8                    30
Spot                  4                    22
Swim                  4                     5
Tumble                n/a                  25
Use Magic Device      3                    24

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Nimble Fingers
Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
Enhancement: Improved Hide I


Level 2 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Toughness
Enhancement: Dwarven Spell Defense I
Enhancement: Improved Move Silently I


Level 3 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Skill Focus: Use Magic Device
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Damage I
Enhancement: Dwarven Constitution I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I


Level 4 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Attack I
Enhancement: Dwarven Spell Defense II


Level 5 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy I
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I
Enhancement: Rogue Wand and Scroll Mastery I


Level 6 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost II
Enhancement: Improved Hide II
Enhancement: Improved Move Silently II


Level 7 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II


Level 8 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Assassin I


Level 9 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing II
Enhancement: Racial Toughness III


Level 10 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Dwarven Constitution II


Level 11 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training II


Level 12 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Slippery Mind
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy III


Level 13 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing III


Level 14 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Assassin II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training III


Level 15 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Improved Evasion
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost II
Enhancement: Rogue Wand and Scroll Mastery II


Level 16 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Dwarven Spell Defense III


Level 17 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Racial Toughness IV


Level 18 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Defensive Roll
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy IV


Level 19 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training IV


Level 20 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing IV
Enhancement: Rogue Assassin III

I think I could still use advice on skills (how high do I need balance to be?? I've heard so many different things about it). In the long run with skill focus or nimble fingers really help me?