It is completely okay to trade Turbine Points to other players for in-game items

[gloopygloop]

From everything that I can tell based on Turbine's actions and their lack of response to players asking if trading Turbine Points for in-game items is forbidden.

If any mod would like to post in this thread, explaining that it is NOT acceptable to trade Turbine Points to other players for in-game items, please feel free to do so. I am going to report this post myself after posting it to ensure that the mods are aware of this thread.

[Rumbaar]

I wonder what happened to that person that traded 1500TP for FRDS and recorded all of the transactions in their thread.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=345814

The thread is still open, no response from Turbine. You do the math.

Tolero posted somewhere it was 'buyer beware' in regards to these kind of transactions. Found it, it's in that thread:

Just a reminder that we do not provide customer support for transactions between third parties. Transactions between players are at their own risk. If you manage to lose or not receive the promised points/goods we cannot help you.

[Vellrad]

Remember this is DDO- devs are nerfing everything new after a while.
After some time, month or 3 max, devs will decide to ban for this, or they're taking notes on how much things costs, and will put them in the store.
But its only my guess.
(I still can't bellive people are paying $200 for epic armor)

[vittordevittor]

Remember this is DDO- devs are nerfing everything new after a while.
After some time, month or 3 max, devs will decide to ban for this, or they're taking notes on how much things costs, and will put them in the store.
But its only my guess.
(I still can't bellive people are paying $200 for epic armor)

its the market law. people have money but dont have epic armor... so....

[Talesin]

LOL speaking of which... I just looted a +5 Silver-threaded handwraps of pure good on Khyber that I would definitely trade for Turbine points... assuming it would be legal.

[Vellrad]

its the market law. people have money but dont have epic armor... so....

Yeah, I'm just shocked at price.
At this cost, they can buy all quests, shared bank, classes, races etc in this game, or 2 or 3 completely new games.

[Calebro]

LOL speaking of which... I just looted a +5 Silver-threaded handwraps of pure good on Khyber that I would definitely trade for Turbine points... assuming it would be legal.

It isn't illegal. Legality implies written law. We aren't talking about laws, but rather about a signed contract.
So while it is not illegal, it is however a violation of that contract (the EULA) that we all virtually signed.

The thing is, this promotes the sale of Turbine Points, which is a good thing. That's my guess as to why they haven't said anything about the issue. You'll notice in that thread they asked for clarification of the screenshots. This tells me that they are monitoring the situation. The fact that he traded them with himself, while a fun little test, doesn't tell us that they're OK with it because all he did was trade his own items and points back to himself. So he didn't violate the EULA with that transaction. But as soon as he showed a screeny of the transaction, they asked about the details.

Turbine Points have no monetary value, that much is true. But they do fall under the umbrella of the "other considerations" in legal terms, which makes this prohibited by the EULA. So what I think we're seeing here by not seeing any true Dev response is the fact that they haven't decided what to do about it yet.
On the one hand it makes them money by promoting the sale of TP.
On the other hand, in the strictest terms, it is absolutely a violation of the EULA.

I think that's why they won't endorse it, but neither have they outright stated that it can't be done.
They have stated that if you get ripped off on a deal, they will do nothing to help you. That, in and of itself, should tell you all you need to know.

[Rumbaar]

Turbine Points have no monetary value, that much is true.

Wrong, they have a value and the reason for bans trading TP and gold etc in the past. The new method is interesting. But Turbine get's their cut ...

[Aaxeyu]

Turbine Points have no monetary value, that much is true.

Turbine point codes have though. And is that not what people are trading?

[Calebro]

Wrong, they have a value and the reason for bans trading TP and gold etc in the past. The new method is interesting. But Turbine get's their cut ...

Sorry friend, but you're the one that's wrong.

found here

You acknowledge that the Game may include certain Game Content or other components involving one or more fictional in-game currencies (e.g., Turbine Points, as described below). Notwithstanding any other language or context to the contrary, any such fictional in-game currency is intended to constitute only a limited license right to use designated features of the Game when, as, and if allowed by Turbine. To the fullest extent allowed by law, the limited license right associated with any such fictional in-game currency is governed solely by the Agreement, and does not represent any monetary value or any right of redemption for any sum of money from Turbine at any time. You agree that Turbine has the absolute right to manage, regulate, control, modify or eliminate any and all such fictional in-game currencies as it sees fit in its sole discretion, in any general or specific case, and that Turbine will have no liability to you arising out of or related to any exercise of such right.

<snip>


When you obtain Turbine Points, you have obtained a limited license from Turbine as described in the previous paragraph. Points have no monetary value. You may not obtain any cash or money in exchange for Turbine Points, regardless of how you obtained those Turbine Points. Turbine Points are not your personal property. Your only recourse for Turbine Points obtained by you, if any, is to use such Turbine Points for redemption to obtain specific Game Content as designated Turbine from time to time in Turbine’s sole discretion.

<snip>

35. You will not advertise the intent to, commit the act of, or in any way facilitate the ability of others to commit the act of, unauthorized selling, buying, transferring or sharing access to any account or game items for real-world monetary values or other consideration.

consideration, legal definition: Something of value to either the promisee or the promisor of a contract (usually cash, but also property, a promise to do something or not to do something, and so on) that is given or will be given by the promisee to the promisor in exchange for a performance or a promise of a performance by the promisor. For the contract to be enforceable, the consideration must be something that the promisee, to his or her detriment or loss, is giving up, or something that benefits the promisor.

Turbine Points fall under this definition. Note that it says "something of value," not "something of monetary value."
Our virtual signing of the EULA also falls under this definition, as a promise not to violate said EULA.

Turbine Points have no monetary value, but they do have value. If you get banned, they won't refund any points you have into cash because of this. The points belong to them. They are a virtual currency with zero real world monetary value.
If people have been banned for trading gold and TP in the past, then they were banned for violating the portions of the EULA that I highlighted yellow. If Turbine decides that this activity has been designated as a violation, then it is a violation. It's their decision.


And thanks for the neg rep, whomever you were. But your measly -40 doesn't hurt my 10k.

[Rumbaar]

Sorry friend, but you're the one that's wrong.

I got the negative rep too, but you are wrong and the terms are defined by Turbine and their EULA in regards to value. But I'll give you some links to educate, regarding real world monetary values.

Trading in-game items for real-world monetary values is prohibited by the Code of Conduct.

11. You may not advertise the intent to, or commit the act of, unauthorized selling or buying of game items for real-world monetary values.

Then we have the recent past 100,000 Turbine Point Sweepstakes!

A little part of the terms and conditions for ya.

Grand Prize
One (1) Grand Prize Winner will receive, which includes the following:

- One Hundred Thousand (100,000) Turbine points

Approximate Retail Value (ARV) of the Grand Prize: $1,000 Total

I can't be bothered finding other quote from Turbine employees regarding real world values and the EULA.

From the sale of guest passes, that can only be acquired via TP or contest.

Definitive Answer: Do Not Do This

Now if Turbine has changed their terms of service and EULA, that's a different mater.

[Dysmetria]

From everything that I can tell based on Turbine's actions and their lack of response to players asking if trading Turbine Points for in-game items is forbidden.

If any mod would like to post in this thread, explaining that it is NOT acceptable to trade Turbine Points to other players for in-game items, please feel free to do so. I am going to report this post myself after posting it to ensure that the mods are aware of this thread.

I do not see how it matters whether it is okay or not. Turbine has no way of policing or preventing such activity.

Also I am unsure why this is suddenly an issue now when people have been trading turbine points to other players for ingame items for a year via the point cards.

[smatt]

As I said when the poitn codes first came out.. Turbine will stay out of it... They started this program fully aware taht peopel would be trading items for point codes. They will not ban peopel for trading in such away, since that would be acknowledging a real monetary vaule for points after you 've bought them. That would be VERY bad for them....

They've seen the threads..... They kind of commented... That's all you're going to hear...

If for soem reason they decide to come down and say "No" they will post it...

Magic 8-ball says silence....

[arjiwan]

This is my opinion.

I don't see any problem. Here are my reasons:

1. BTC - BTA system. You can't trade Epic Shards/Seals outside chest, you can't trade Raid Loot outside chests. You can't easily outfit your character with Raid and epic items just by trading your Turbine points directly.

2. Turbine points gives more money to turbine. More budget, more life to the game. Developers can afford to eat. If you are selling your items with $100, trade it to my paypal, well, there is your problem right there.

3. Why do you care if the "noob" has a red dragonscale outfitted with turbine points? Since he is a noob, he will STILL be a noob in your eyes. So if you envy his quick red dragonscale completion, I think the problem lies somewhere. Don't be envious. "*mumble mumble* that noob is swimming with gs, I am not *mumble mumble*".

Hey man, this is PvE, not PvP. If you don't want to group with someone, you have the means not to.

Cheers.

[in4theride75]

Noun 1. monetary value
monetary value - the property of having material worth (often indicated by the amount of money something would bring if sold)

Since Turbine points cannot be directly "sold" by the user they have no monetary value. Further, they can at any time remove turbine points from your account for absolutely no reason and with absolutely no channels of legal recourse, proving that it is not "yours to sell".

There is a relative monetary value to a turbine point based on Turbine's policy for allowing users access to their service.
Remember, this game is provided as a service and not a good, ergo, voiding all your "rights" to "your" account.

[Rumbaar]

Turbine can do whatever they like whenever they like, it's a shame that actions of the past greatly contradict the current actions Turbine has taken in regards to 'buying' in game TP only items for plat and buying in game items for TP's.

Turbine, step up your game! You owe the community a clear answer on the question. Tolero?! As Cordovan has given conflicting locking response to your responses to the mater.

[in4theride75]

Well, according to both the CoC and EULA there is nothing wrong with selling TP items for PP for two reasons:
One, TP does not have monetary value and thus not real world currency.
Two, some TP only items aren't TP only as they can be looted from chests.
So, if they are enforcing this they are doing so on no grounds. This should simply become a game taboo and not a restricted process.

[lhidda]

This is turbines answer to diablo IIIs real-money auctionhouse. Just a little more decent.
Since they can not stop blackmarket gold/item sales, the make it legal and profit theirselves.
To my opinion still better than some non-authorised people make money with it.
Nevertheless these buy2win options (legal or illegal) did ruin every great game in the end.

[gloopygloop]

As I said when the poitn codes first came out.. Turbine will stay out of it... They started this program fully aware taht peopel would be trading items for point codes. They will not ban peopel for trading in such away, since that would be acknowledging a real monetary vaule for points after you 've bought them. That would be VERY bad for them....

They've seen the threads..... They kind of commented... That's all you're going to hear...

If for soem reason they decide to come down and say "No" they will post it...

Magic 8-ball says silence....

Unfortunately, I think that smatt's answer is the only correct one. Turbine knows that this issue exists (I report a good many of my own posts in these threads, so there is no question that a moderator has seen them) and their silence has been deafening.

It would be incredibly easy for Tolero, Fernando, Cordovan or someone else from Turbine to post in a few of these threads saying that it is not okay to trade Turbine Points for FRDS/LDS/scrolls/raid loot in chests/etc.

But they haven't. Even though people have been figuratively jumping up and down, crying out for a definitive answer.

[Calebro]

Iut I'll give you some links to educate, regarding real world monetary values.

What part of this statement are you having trouble understanding?

found here

Points have no monetary value.

There is a difference between Value and Monetary Value. Points do have value, as I have already conceded. But that doesn't mean that they have monetary value.
Spending money on a service gives that service value. But you can't sell that service. As a matter of fact, it specifically against the agreement that you signed to sell that service.
The link that you attempted to use to prove that they had monetary value ("11. You may not advertise the intent to, or commit the act of, unauthorized selling or buying of game items for real-world monetary values.") has no bearing on the question of whether the points have monetary value. They do not, as stated by the company that sold them to you. That quote only references selling game items (gear, plat, TP, etc) for hard cash, which explicitly violates your agreement.

The next quote also says nothing of monetary value. Retail Value is what is addressed in that one, and retail value is not the same as monetary value. Retail Value is nothing more than an estimate of what you would pay in hard cash to purchase said service. See my previous point about selling a service.

The fact that any particular object has perceived value or an estimated retail value does not inherently give that object any monetary value at all.