8 fighter/ 6 ranger/ 6 barbarian?

[Alex301]

Just another build i've been thinking of. It's essentially the monster build that exchanges kensei II for frenzied berserker I.

In terms of dps you're really just swapping +1 damage from weapon mastery and haste boost IV for 2-12 vicious damage from frenzied berserker and haste boost III.

Everything else is can be matched by the barbarian levels:
+8 strength from power surge = +4 str from rage+ 2 from power rage +2 from frenzied berserker.
+2 damage from greater weapon specialization = +2 PA enhancements.

The main drawback imo is the lower number of action boosts (2 if we include fighter extra action boost) but you do gain damage boost II from the barbarian levels. Relying on rage instead of power surge may also be more problematic in some quests if combat is spread out. 3+ min rages shouldn't be too difficult to achieve so even with 4 rages that's 12+ mins. This should give you more time with +8 strength than power surge would give you, but this time will be clumped together and be more difficult to spread out.

Has anyone tried this? Is it viable?

[ivstuntman]

id say no, considering:

-taking any levels of ranger makes a build gimp

-in terms of dps fighter and barbs lose ALLOT of dps by multitaclassing

this build doesn't really accomplish anything, at all. If you want dps, ac and hp play a helf fighter with kopeshes and rogue dilly. If you want slightly more hp and slightly more dps with no ac play a horc barb and grab an esos. There is nor reason to play the ranger outside of using the bow, tempest is just a bunch of minor buffs to the 70 seconds you arent manyshotting.

[Alex301]

Muticlassing can also add alot of dps too. The sweeping statements like 'taking any levels of ranger makes a build gimp' are just wrong as well.

If you're getting the extra favoured enemy damage, 6 ranger is probably the most powerful 6 levels you can take. +3 damage from rams might +6 damage to favoured enemies (these are also affected by damage boost and affect critical hit damage) and +10% off hand procs is tough to beat.

The tempest I prestige is very undervalued imo. Yes its not as good as the +10% attack speed it use to offer but it's only slightly behind the fighter's capstone as it is.

A helf fighter is not going to have a decent ac if they're dps focuses either and i doubt a horc barb could do more damage than a helf fighter under ideal conditions. Regardless, getting an esos is no small feat either.

[wax_on_wax_off]

The main issue that I see with this build is that if you arent going to grab kensei II then 2 levels of fighter is all you really need.

12 barbarian / 6 ranger / 2 fighter or 12 ranger / 6 barbarian / 2 fighter like Iccir's Badger are both more interesting builds (helf rogue dilettante in either case).

[Alex301]

Frenzied berserker II is fairly weak though and i think you underestimate what 8 fighter levels offers over 2 fighter levels. Tempest II is actually quite nice but such a large portion of it's dps comes from favoured enemies.

The monster build would do more damage than both of these though and intuitively it would seem this build would do more damage than that. After thinking about it again though going 12 fighter/ 6 barbarian/ 2 ranger covers a lot of the things that put me off with this build. I doubt it would do more damage but it seems more solid.

[Havesmat]

go fighter12 for power surge. Youll have at least 8 min of them.
than take 6 barb: ull get your frenzy bonus (2to12 damage), and +8 str u listed in 1st post (from rage, frenzy, power rage). Youll also get some power atack enhancements.
Take 2 lvs of rogue for evasion and +1d6 SA (3.5).

So you have evasion, +16 str, +7 (startdart) damage from frenzy, +3.5 (standart) from SA, and the fighter haste, crit, etc enhancements., and all these for each weapon: 1.8x all these damage increases.

[honkuimushi]

The main problem I see is that you have to meet the requirements for all of the PrEs and tier I is generally the most expensive.

You need Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Power Attack and Cleave. That still leaves critical feats like Toughness, Improved Critical, and GTWF. You may want khopesh and OTWF as well. That's 7 requires feats, 3 almost required and at least 2 that are nice to have. A human would have 12 feats, just enough for those, but a a non-human would be lacking. Sure, you could switch out OTWF, but There's likely another feat you'd like.

You also need 4 APs for each PrE (+1 for Kensai)and more for the prereqs. So instead of spending 3 APs for Kensai II, you spend 9 for Frenzied Berzerker I. I think you'll find yourself short of APs to take all the things you need to have for things to balance out.

What you get from Barbarian also has a lot of negatives.

Power surge is shorter, but it only uses Attack Boost. Rage is longer, but you have to drink a pot or wait out your fatigue. It also blocks your ranger spells and wands. You can mach Power Surge's Str and gain Viscious damage from Frenzy, but you have to take damage to do it.

You can get +2 from Power Attack enhancements, but that costs you -1 to hit, in addition to the penalties you get from dual wielding and having to reach 17 Dex. Kensai II gives you +2 from GWS and +1 from the Signature Weapon II. And that gives you an extra +1 to hit.

Even going Ranger 12 would give you 100% off hand strikes and better spellcasting, including 30 point Resists, and it gives you Evasion. You can also lower your Dex because you don't need 17 base Dex for GTWF.


At one time, this might have been a good idea, but since most PrEs have at least a 2nd tier　and APs have gotten tighter, I just don't see this paying off. A 12/6/2 build would probably be better in almost every way.

[Alex301]

The penalties you mention are the same that any barbarian or blitz would have. Vicious damage isn't really a problem and the fatigue effect is just an inconvenience. The only ranger spell worth using is ram's might. It would last 6 mins and you could easily fit that around your rages.

The fighter levels would also give you 5 more feats and you could fit all of them in. You are tight ap wise but you can certainly fit everything in, even on a helf with the HV enhancements and rogue dilly.

The blitz build was very solid for a horc but for half elves the extra SA damage doesn't do as much as only the rogue sneak attack training would stack with the rogue dilly. 2 Ranger on the other hand offers +3 damage against a favoured enemy and grants twf, giving you another feat. The favoured enemy damage would also improve critical hit damage and works if you have aggro.

[Arshan]

The main problem of the 3 class splitted melees (12/6/2, 13/6/1 , 16/2/2 or w/e else...) is that they have usually quite important issues to SUSTAIN their buffs, just because they have many things to focus on (as some people mentioned it, to get their PrEs).

- Barbarians have rages... the past life feat used to be just awesome to balance this lack of sustainance... for now you have to focus on constitution pretty well to have a decent duration AND enough rages.

- Fighters have their boosts, and that's something that is not any stat relyant. Though to have enough of these, you need to spend some Action Points. Can you afford it with 18 points spent ONLY on the PrEs themselves ? Almost 1/4 of you action would go in your PrEs, that's a lot. And i don't take into account other AP you have to spend to reach the PrEs. Pretty hard to sustain max dps on a fighter on endgame like elite ToD or epic new stuff.

- Rangers... ah rangers. Tempests are so bad, you must hear that very often. Tempest sucks... if you are dext based. A good tempest understood that his dps comes from the combination of high strength AND his 20% proc off-hand.

About your 8/6/6 attempt now

8 fighter... well why not, haste boost III. You could make it 7, but as it has been said, you need feats.

6 barb... frenzy I, in the case of your build, you lack feats, and as far as frenzy only asks cleave (and PA but if you don't take PA just DONT ROLL MELEES), it's still a pretty useless feat at 20 (can replace quickdraw in some extend for your boosts, but not for yours hotswaps). Frenzy is great, period, but you'll need high CON to have a decent raging ability, and as far as frenzy in itself is badass, taking up to 6 barb levels and not using your rages is a waste imo.

6 ranger, here we go. I think tempest I is rather annoying, just because it costs you 3 feats to get it, but you don't get full TWF line for it, and you have to go for your 17 dext for Superior TWF. And there, tempest II shines : very few dext required = more CON => more raging time, nice sinergy. Oh here is the problem, who will dare tempest II cause RANGERS DPS SUCK. Tempest I is only viable if you go for 12 fighter ahead, to afford the feat waste tempest I implies.

Now, other solution have been spotted already : the nearest way to stick to your main idea is a 12/6/2.
To be honnest, any combination of fighter, barb and ranger with a 12/6/2 will do better than your 8/6/6.

Now, i can speak of what i know,

- The Blitz ( http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=264744 ), 12 fighter 6 barb 2 rogue. People tend to forget it's not ONLY a dps build, and has great versatility. The 2 rogue are mainly here for the umd and SA... not the evasion. Not really what you are after imo, but many people play blitz like retards and it works well. I used to :P

- 12 barb 6 fighter 2 ranger. Makes sense, not a min/max stuff i would recommend, but prolly the nearest build of yours. 12 barb 8 fighter makes sense too, as 12 fighter 8 barb does.

- 12 ranger 6 barb 2 fighter. I'm always glad to see that build has been quoted somewhere, i think wax on wax off did. I know this build pretty well, play it, love it and i think it would totally fit to what you are actually after. I don't like to ad like that but well it makes sense here. If you want more infos bout it just check wax_on_wax_off link or check the one in my signature.


To put it in a nutshell, 3 classes melee builds often have many ways to max dps, but only one to find total sinergy between classes.
But you know... i've seen a 10 barb/10 wiz (not Lring process) and as far as 8/6/6 may not be efficient, it wouldnt be that ridiculous

[Alex301]

Apart from the limited number of boosts, which i mentioned in the original post, no one has said why this build would be worse in terms of DPS. All suggest a 12/6/2 split but none really specify why apart from pointing out problems the builds they are suggesting would also suffer from. I don't mind criticism, it's why i made this post in the first place, but some of the points and suggestions made seem self-contradictory.

Stat wise this build would be exactly the same as the blitz. There is no reason its rages can't be as long. 12 minutes of rage isn't too difficult to achieve and that's without the FB set. Cleave would be just as useless on the blitz build as well. 8 fighter is used over 7 as it also adds khopesh specialization for another +1 damage as well.

This point about being very ap dependant is also wrong. The tempest prestige has no enhancement pre-requisites and cost 4 ap. Lets compare this to the blitz build, who effectively swaps the tempest prestige for kensei II and 2 rogue levels: you're spending 2 ap on Kensei II, 1 ap on weapon mastery, 4 ap on haste boost IV, 2 ap on extra action boost I and 1 ap on rogue sneak attack training. Overall you're actually going to spend 6 more ap than the build i'm suggesting.

The monster build, against its favoured enemies, would actually achieve higher dps than any of the builds listed. Of cause this is more situational as well though. Intuitively you'd think 8 fighter/ 6 barbarian is better than 12 fighter, but i think losing out on haste boost IV and the time taken to activate frenzy would result in lower dps.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Apart from the limited number of boosts, which i mentioned in the original post, no one has said why this build would be worse in terms of DPS. All suggest a 12/6/2 split but none really specify why apart from pointing out problems the builds they are suggesting would also suffer from. I don't mind criticism, it's why i made this post in the first place, but some of the points and suggestions made seem self-contradictory.

Stat wise this build would be exactly the same as the blitz. There is no reason its rages can't be as long. 12 minutes of rage isn't too difficult to achieve and that's without the FB set. Cleave would be just as useless on the blitz build as well. 8 fighter is used over 7 as it also adds khopesh specialization for another +1 damage as well.

This point about being very ap dependant is also wrong. The tempest prestige has no enhancement pre-requisites and cost 4 ap. Lets compare this to the blitz build, who effectively swaps the tempest prestige for kensei II and 2 rogue levels: you're spending 2 ap on Kensei II, 1 ap on weapon mastery, 4 ap on haste boost IV, 2 ap on extra action boost I and 1 ap on rogue sneak attack training. Overall you're actually going to spend 6 more ap than the build i'm suggesting.

The monster build, against its favoured enemies, would actually achieve higher dps than any of the builds listed. Of cause this is more situational as well though. Intuitively you'd think 8 fighter/ 6 barbarian is better than 12 fighter, but i think losing out on haste boost IV and the time taken to activate frenzy would result in lower dps.

Ok, add up the exact pros and cons of decreasing your fighter levels to 2 and increasing your ranger levels to 12.

From fighter, you lose:
+2 damage: Weapon Specialisation feat
+1 damage: specified weapon
+1 combat DCs, +1 reflex saves vs magic, 1 action boost from kensei I
+1 attack/damage, +2 seeker from chosen weapon
2 other feats (GTWF + weapon focus).
22 HP (toughness II enhancement still available from barbarian levels)
29 potential AP: 10 AP for Kensei I, 3 AP for toughness III, 5 AP from haste boost III, 2 AP from 2*specified weapon, 4 AP from fighter strength II, 5 AP from stunning blow III

From ranger, you gain:
Precise Shot, Improved Precise Shot, Greater Two Weapon Fighting, Evasion
~100 SP, full strength barkskins (for allies) and full strength resist/protection from energies.
+2 reflex save (natural progression)
+2 extra damage vs FE's
1 additional FE (for a total of 3)
1 action boost from Extra Action Boost I (costs 12 AP all up)
+1 attack and damage from enhancements vs FE's (7 AP)
Tempest II (+1 attack, +10% offhand = 5.3% DPS boost. 6 AP)

I think this is everything that I can find.

DPS wise, ranger ~= fighter vs FE's before including +10% offhand proc (+2 attack, +4 damage, +2 seeker vs +2 attack, +3 damage).

2 questions to ask:
What is the weapon modifier required before the tempest II offhand proc will see more damage against FE's?
What is the weapon modifier required before the tempest II offhand proc will see more damage against non-FE's?

You'd probably need a DPS comparison tool to do it properly but I bet by the time you equip gear such as LitII's or better that the ranger will overtake against non-FE's (if not before) due to the non-linear nature of the benefits of the Tempest II PrE.

[EpiKagEMO]

it'll work without ranger 100%

[Arshan]

it'll work without ranger 100%

It'll work without fighter or barb or rogue 100% too tbh...

Going TWF doenst mean GOTTA GO ranger, but tempest II is really underestimated, while kensai II is overestimated imo.