Rogue Mechanics..?

[Dagolar]

[Edit: Before you read on, let me emphasize that this thread is only concerned about Mechanic flavor [as differing from Artificer] and overall Mechanic balance, and not how Mechanic balances to Artificer.]

Since the other mechanic thread isn't focused enough on it, I felt this topic ought get a fresh thread.
Mechanics have three benefits: increased trapping, increased disarm/search/etc, and crossbow skills.
Artificers are int-based, which narrows the gap on the second bit, and have better crossbow and other abilities, lackluster trapping bonuses aside.

At the moment, mechanics are- regardless of their nerf-to-op status- redundant and bland. What are possible changes that could be made to distinguish them?

More trapping focus, culminating at an impressive tier 3 benefit?
A change to dungeon styles to better effect their rogue skill boosts?
Improving crossbow benefits seems the least useful element for distinguishing mechanics, even if they could use the combat boost. So.. added bonuses to reflex saves?
Improved abilities vs constructs? That last one is definitely useful, appropriate, potent, and unique, especially if it starts being allowed to apply to ranged attaks.
As such, that has my vote. What are everyone else's thoughts?

Edit: General opinion, both in this thread and among friends and guildies seems to be improved trapping/grenade potency and usefulness, with the added suggestion of tier 3 mechanic culminating in a Blown to Bits-style bomb-placement ability (which, due to its potency, would be on a 5 minute or so timer).
This would serve three purposes: Making traps worthwhile, making mechanics unique, and making up for any mechanic combat deficiencies, while still emphasizing their differences from primary combat/assassination classes. To that point, Assassin and Arcane Archer have instant kill abilities, which while not affecting in a blast radius would proc far more often; As such, a bomb would fit right in balance-wise, while still having unique flavor.

[QuantumFX]

OK. Let me start this by saying: Don’t base trap DCs around one specialty. Never, ever, ever wish this for the rogue class. EVERY time Turbine has tried this it has only hurt the rogue class. (Now, adding more fun with critical successes would be a great idea IMHO.)

Each of the PrE’s needs to provide some form of DPS versatility. Attacking the “fun” factor from that perspective would be better for everyone. The difference between an assassin III and a mechanic II is effectively 3d6+5 sneak attack dice. (+1d6 per tier and averaging out the vorpal effect.)

The biggest thing I would like to see is Rapid Reload added to the Mechanic I benefits. Eladrin himself mentioned that you will want that feat if you have any sort of crossbow focus. It seems kind of stupid to force a feat starved class to take it. (Another option would be to add crossbow feats to the list of rogue bonus feats.)

Also Improved Crit: Crossbows for Tier III. It would be nice for them to get a ranged focus *and* maintain a decent melee profile to differentiate them from artificers. This bonus alone would make them objectively as/more useful than an assassin in the DQ raid due to the fact that they can do good DPS throughout the fight.

You may have missed the memo about the increased damage vs. constructs they got in the last update. The prereqs for Wrack Construct are basically free for a mechanic. (Meaning, you have to purchase them to become a mechanic anyway.) That alone makes you useful in the Shroud and the Cannith raids. Also, I wouldn’t be suprised if Mechanic III’s get a smiting ability similar to Assassins/Hunters of the Dead.

Also, an increased search/disable/open lock speed would be a welcome addition. More zerg, less wait time for traps would be welcome in any group.

[Dagolar]

Excellent points, thank you! And certainly, I wasn't trying to suggest skill emphasis for anything but optional considerations. As far as the constructs go, I was thinking something in a flavor somewhat similar to knight of the chalice and hunter of the dead. Simply put, mechanics were a bit hard to justify playing before, but had uniqueness on their side. Just trying to make that second element remain true- and, hey, if we make them more viable, fun, and potent in the effort.. my mechanic won't complain.

[Meetch1972]

It occurs to me that Arti's get their wonderful fire turrets, and other stuff... while mechanics get ... to make (still not very useful) traps. The ones that are a bit nice are also very hard to get the bits for.

Can the trapsmithing station be accompanied by a vendor that will sell you fire/acid/whatever parts, or at least let me trade some of the 2000 mechanical trap parts I lug around for more exotic ones? Then at least if I were to run my flavor mechanic I could spend some pp, switch into the master mechanic gear and lay down 2 of the biggest baddest traps I can make each quest instead of 1 quest in 200. I don't care if I spend 1kpp/quest, at least they might be effective, and I actually get to make things go BOOM instead of pop!

Also an extra item to boost the DC by 5 and/or damage by 50% (perhaps amp boost via gear when setting traps too?) and/or crit ability of the traps made would be nice.

I don't have time to think about the details at the moment... maybe after work. Hmmmm, the brain's ticking over now.

[QuantumFX]

Simply put, mechanics were a bit hard to justify playing before, but had uniqueness on their side.

And I see all the U11 changes as actually making mechanics into a viable build decision. The trick is to see the differences between the rogue class/artificer class or assassin/mechanic and to build/play based on those differences.

An artificer is more potent at longer range. - This means, move closer and rock your sneak attack damage at point blank range.

An artificer sucks as a melee character. Any rogue with the TWF chain and opportunist kicks ass in melee.

An assassin does less DPS vs. constructs. - Rock the mechanic bonuses vs. constructs.

An assassin doesn't have many ranged combat options. - A mechanic does.

I don't have time to think about the details at the moment... maybe after work. Hmmmm, the brain's ticking over now.

Maybe a maximize or empower like effect for traps/grenades with tiers 2 and 3?

[Kavassa]

i think the biggest problem with traps and grenades is the amount u need vs the amount u can make which is why the very few mechanic builds out there don't even bother with them. arties can cast spells which do roughly the same maybe more then mechanic traps or grenades however artie's are limited by SP while mechanics are limited by trap parts and SP is a free renewable resource.

[Meetch1972]

Here's an idea... now that we can collect and trade essences for item crafting, why not let them be used as ingredients in making components for traps and grenades?

5 lesser fire essences and 5 widgets from trap part vendor -> 5 fire trap parts.

... etc. Tune the numbers so it's viable of course, but starting in that ballpark...

Edit: Hmmm, I posted this AFTER the one below. I think there are multiple servers responsible for taking the posts and their clocks aren't properly in sync...

[Meetch1972]

Maybe a maximize or empower like effect for traps/grenades with tiers 2 and 3?

Oh yes, that sort of thing would be great. A few enhancements with mechanic prereqs to boost trap DCs/damage. I suck with naming them, but something like (for starters!):

Mines:

Trap-laying Stealth I - cost 1AP. You have seen enough nasty traps in your time to hone your instincts to disguise traps and make them more of a surprise. Gives a +3 insight bonus to trap setting that stacks with all other bonuses to trap DC.. Prerequisites: Mechanic tier 1 PrE and opportunist feat.

Trap-laying Stealth II - cost 2AP. You've gained further insight into how traps are well hidden by misdirecting the eye away from them. Adds +3 insight bonus to give +6 to trap DC. Prerequisites: Mechanic tier 2 and trap-laying stealth 1.

Trap-laying Stealth III - cost 3AP. You're a natural at hiding traps such that when they go off it's usually too late for your victim to do much about it. Adds a further +3 Insight bonus to give +9 to trap DC. Prerequisites: Mechanic tier 3 (when it comes - or 18 rogue levels) and trap-laying stealth 2.

Trap Effectiveness I - cost 1AP. You have gained a mechanical insight which allows you to add a little "oomph" to traps you lay. Adds 1d6 damage and 5ft range to "blast radius" of mines you lay and a 5% chance for the damage to be doubled (prior to application of reflex saves). Prerequisite: Mechanic 1.

Trap Effectiveness II - cost 2AP. Your insight into the workings of traps further improves, allowing you to position traps in a way that makes them kick more. Adds a further 2d6 damage and 5ft range to the "blast radius" of mines you lay for a total of 3d6 extra damage of its type and 10ft range, and increases the chance for double damage to 10%. Prerequisites: Mechanic 2 and Trap Effectiveness I.

Trap Effectiveness III - cost 3AP. You've come as close to perfection with the "shaped charge" as you can get. All traps you lay gain a further 3d6 damage out another 5ft for a total of 6d6 extra damage at 15ft higher radius than their standard design, and increases the chance for double damage to 20%. Prerequisites: Mechanic 3 (when it comes - or 18 rogue levels) and Trap Effectiveness II.

Grenades:

Subtle Grenadier I - cost 1AP. Your grenade tossing skill has improved such that it is more accurate and looks more casual, so is more likely to take your victim(s) by surprise. Increases the reflex save DC of your thrown grenades by 2. Prerequisite: subtle backstabbing I and sneak attack training I.
Subtle Grenadier II - cost 2AP. A casual flick of the wrist sends your grenade more accurately to the vicinity of your target. Increases the reflex save DC of your thrown grenades by 2, for a total of +4. Prerequisites: Subtle Grenadier I and Subtle backstabbing II and sneak attack training II.
Subtle Grenadier III - cost 3AP. It's practically sleight of hand that gets a grenade to go BOOM at your enemies' feet. Increases the reflex save DC of your thrown grenades by a further 2, for a total of +6, and placement gives a blast radius that's effectively 5ft bigger than intended. Prequisites: Subtle Grenadier II and Subtle backstabbing III.
Subtle Grenadier IV - cost 4AP. If they're not looking, they don't see it coming. Your grenades also have a tendency to go off in the air, usually somewhere around your victim's upper body. Adds a further 2 to the DC of your thrown grenades for a total of +8, the blast radius is effectively 5ft bigger than design and there is a 5% chance that the grenade will do double damage to all targets in range. Prerequisites: Subtle Grenadier III and Sneak attack training III.

I just had a thought about trap making 'n' crafting 'n' stuff. Separate post... but whatchyareckon?

[Dagolar]

Could have two tiers of paths similar to those you noted tied to the trapmaking skill, and give mechanics access to a stackable bonus tier to each path.. either way, AP-based upgrades to trapping would be great, and mechanics definitely should be the masters at trapping.