Quote Originally Posted by Desonde View Post
I'm starting an experiment shortly on live to try and find a use for the stick and board, as well as the intimidate changes (as they are presently one and the same). It entails me TRing out of my Stalwart III as the build was completely destroyed (probably contained all of the do-not's in the design mindset). I wasn't expecting there to be any changes to the Stalwart line this quickly, and the first thing that came to my mind was, Resurrect the old build? Followed by, Modify the old build to exploit the new changes? and finally, Alter to piece into the new build?

First two answers quickly fell off into a no (just don't see how the Stalwart III is going earn a benefit), the third I thought about much harder as it makes the build much easier to build, has a few added benefits, but ended because of the added draw backs I'd have to impose onto the build...
I posted that back in August, and began the experiment on the first day of U.11

The purpose of the experiment was to give intimidate and shields the best possible chance of working with current mechanics (as in order to get intimidate to work have effectively a shield is required).

The Build:

12 Paladin [Hunter of the Dead II], 6 Fighter [Kensai I], 2 Monk [Evasion +feats]

Feats taken: Force of Personality, Two Handed Fighting (3 feats), Shield Mastery (2 feats), Toughness (3 feats), Exotic Prof. Bastard Swords, Improved Critical: Slashing, Weapon Focus: Slashing, Weapon Expertise: Slashing, Power Attack.

AC: 29, HP: 617 (no exceptional con, buffs, or yugo pots), Saves(F/R/W): 43/27/35, Intimi: 52, Hate Multiplier: 4.8x w/ divine righteousness, 2piece levik and intimidate (8.58x with hate gear and above), Healing Amp: 2.3x multiplier, average guard damage on mob with 0 resistances, 40.

Basically when developing it was a very simple If a, than b, than c, decision (Intimi Tank, Must have shield, Must use Bastard Sword or Dwarven Axe, if DA/BS than Epic Chimera's Fang).

Coming from a build with 80ish AC (depending on party buffs) and no evasion (full plate so glancing blows were moot). The first thing I threw out was the AC, even at 80 it wasn't functioning to a degree that satisfied me, and was taking up so many gear and ability points that it wasn't worth the investment.

That led to the decision of adding guards on as many items as possible to offset the amount of damage lost from not having true two handed weapon damage, or twf. It also led to the decision of boosting the healing amp as since I'm taking so much damage might as well make it so that the smaller, cheaper heals will fully heal me.

At the time of inception, divine righteousness was all around a better choice for tanking as it beat both the SD III and the DoS III at the time. Then the changes were made and caused me to rethink (as in the quote above), but decided against to keep ghost touch free from equipment slots (more guards/utility) and the extra healing amp, but it's just a respec away should I decide the 15% hp boost and 50% extra hate are critical (as it appears divine righteousness, 100% doesn't stack with the DoS Sacred half).

The Results:

With intimidate and divine righteousness up (divine can be maintained for 17 minutes) it's very hard for me to lose aggro, the damage reduction from shield mastery is nice, but in elites it clearly isn't enough, especially in post U.11, and the healing amp is at a very nice amount (lvl 12 paladin can LoH self for 402 hp).

But there are a lot of problems with the underlying mechanics of the build.

Active Shield Blocking:

Blocking as an effective strategy doesn't exist, it isn't possible and has very little effect.

If you push and hold block, you aren't doing damage and your target will not continue to attack you. That's perfectly fine, as that's really not a very good design. However, you have a tool tip in Cerulean Hills telling you that if you block you can prevent secondary affects such as knockdown and poison. And creatures designed prior to a certain point all had slow animations to allow this to happen... unfortunately there is also a timer that's about the same duration that prevents you from actually blocking when you need to.

This means that in order to block a cat's knockdown you need to block before the knockdown attack animation begins because if you start half a second after it starts, you will not block, you will take full damage, and be knockdown, despite the fact that the shield animation had completed and you are in full defensive mode prior to the attack landing.

So I checked for lag. Dueling with a slow attacking troll, I shield block until the successful block animation appears and the number appears, I drop guard swing once and start blocking. The animation completes and I enter the animated loop, troll attacks again, animation does not appear, full damage is taken, and combat log doesn't include the shield damage reduction. Perfect, exactly the same as the first test, and it's repeatable. The next time the attack comes in, I drop guard half a second before it hits (so if it's lag the hit should land as if I'm still blocking) and swing. No shield block animation, full damage and combat log doesn't include the dr. This was also repeatable, there was no apparent lag in either situation, and if it were a client server delay, the delay should be equal on both ends of the event.

The timer needs to be removed, so that this end of the gameplay can be utilized to the extent it was intended and encouraged at an early point in the game (despite the fact that monster animations have been removed on many new creatures), or the effects of shield blocking need to be redesigned entirely to give a more functional use (in current game play it's used to block when knocked down to reduce the damage taken, and it's used when the unintended person gains aggro so that the intentional aggro holder can reclaim it).

Intimidate:

Yes the +100% is great, but the skill it self is completely useless, keep in mind I've given this skill the best possible chance to work, and it still doesn't function.

In order for this skill to be somewhat useful, you must meet all of the following conditions. Have a high Charisma modifier, put 23 points into intimidate, open item slots for +15 intimidate items, +Charisma items, and be using a shield at the time of activation.

To have intimidate to be somewhat useful in all* situations, in addition to the above you must also have, +5 enchantment intimidate items, past life in barbarian, past life in fighter, +Charisma Skill items, available feat slots to spent on +intimidate feats and past life feats, and hope that the person you are trying to keep aggro on isn't immune to hate generation.

All of this investment so that you can get the chance to stop attacking (losing all threat generation) claim the top threat count, and hope that the small buffer (and yes it is a small buffer) is enough to hold aggro until you start to attack again. The buffer is so small that if a big enough hit comes in soon enough aggro will be stolen, regardless of how much hate you have.

The only time intimidate works is if you are using it as a hate boost to build aggro, it does not take aggro and it cannot be used to hold aggro, it's only a tool to build it. And even in this case, it must beat one foe's save, if you put a cr 0.25 kobold beside Horoth, you do not need more than 10 intimidate to get the 100% hate generation against Horoth, rather than the 70 you need presently for elite.

15 second cool down, is far too long, used to control the trash (which laugh off the buffer) is impossible since it can't be effectively used to take aggro and it's a long time to try again.

I recommend Intimidate be broken down into two different parts. A passive toggle that when active gives 1% hate for every point of intimidate to a maximum of 50% when not wielding a shield, 2% hate for every point of intimidate to a maximum of 100% when using a shield. This will mean that have a decent investment of 50 points in intimidate (which is a nice fair break point) will give you the option to use intimidate's hate generation function with out obscene investment.

In addition, have a similar timed affect but reduce the cool down to 12 - 10s, and change the successful function to 'you have hate equal to the highest person's hate, plus for the next 3 seconds (6 seconds with a shield) the creature only gains hate from you.'

That way you don't have to reduce the obscene intimidate saves that were added to prevent turtle tanks, though they should be looked at as they are unnecessarily high to prevent a skill that functions better if someone else is nearby.

The Paladin:

Their isn't much to say to paint this class in a pleasant light. If it weren't for Divine Righteousness and the (albeit weak) bonuses from the Hunter of the Dead line, it struggles to fit in with the current game play.

They gain magic casting abilities, but don't gain spells worth casting, or enhance the play style of the class (with the exception of Zeal, which is a lvl 4 spell), expensive enhancements that become excessively expensive after their first rank, and become less beneficial at higher tiers. Mediocre PrE bonuses.

The resistance spell is nice at low levels but quickly become obsolete in the mid range game play, but that's not a very big deal as many other classes have spells that expire like that. Many of the other spells at that level also fall into line of a level 1 spell and other classes, and there is some overlap between them.

Divine Favor, this spell could be good, but it's duration kills it. It's a target self spell that is on par with Ram's Might... or it would be if it's duration wasn't so weak pathetic. The power creep the monsters have taken on, +3 to hit/dmg isn't as powerful as haste, shouldn't have the same duration as haste, doesn't warrant the requirement of extend on a feat starved class, especially when it costs 10 sp + meta on a low sp toon. I can't see a balance issue if this were boosted to 1min/level like every other buff of the same type.

Angelskin is another horrendous spell, it's quickly out performed by items, has a pathetic duration, and many mid-high level mobs by pass it's affect completely. DR/Evil seems like a mistake, 5/Good seems more appropriate to me (Why would a Paladin hunting evil creatures, cast a spell that protects him from everything but evil creatures?) and 1min a level duration doesn't break the balance of the game, monsters are already hitting for 50's 10% dr from a spell that can be dispelled isn't a problems, especially when there are items that give 5/good that cannot be dispelled and don't cost sp to cast.

Rest of the level 2 spells are fine as is.

Unlike Divine Favor, Prayer is perfectly fine as it is more along the lines of haste, and all of the lvl 3-4 spells are fine.

The biggest flaw though in paladin spells, is there are too few to choose from, and many of them are out classed by items/buffs/other classes with the same or superior spells.

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The enhancements:

In most cases the problem comes down to cost and affect. The basic cross class enhancements are fine (Item defense, toughness, etc.), but others are hard to like based on their cost.

The Follower line is hard to call as it could go either way, some are better than others, and warrant the cost, others are just weak.

Extra Turning, for a skill that can't keep up with it's function, and doesn't have many uses post mid level play, 6 ap for 3 extra turn attempts is expensive, especially since the first extra one only cost 1ap.

Improved Turning, is another hard one to call, if the level increase actually made it's usage function better, cost is justified, but I haven't seen it effectively used in mid level play.

Divine Redemption is the exception to the general rule of the first tier being good but the rest being over priced, but it does follow the line of being more valuable at first tier than the latter. Shouldn't having more resurrection abilities be encouraged amongst party play? especially when the high end difficulty has been ramped up. A paladin will at most have 5 attempts between rests, and by doing so they sacrifice their strongest heal skill use. I think for this one, either cut the cost in half or fold the second tiers into the first so that it functions differently at the three different paladin levels.

Resistance of good I think is the only aura skill that should scale up within the tiers, Bulwark, Focus, and Courage are hard to justify at more than 1ap a rank (as of current play, both are quickly made obsolete, and still would be hard to see used in mid level play)

Divine Light, this skill has little use in mid level play and almost no use in high level play, and unfortunately, the damage it outputs is fairly low comparatively, asking more than 1ap a rank is a hard sell.

Divine Might, this skill is regulated by requiring a strong base Charisma, having the increased skill point cost isn't needed as points added to the base often come from the charisma enhancements or character points that would otherwise go into str or con. 1ap a rank with the charisma req. isn't imbalanced.

Divine Sacrifice, this is a prime example of first tier outweighing the rest. For 1 ap you get 5d6 light damage and +1 crit multiplier vs evil foes. For 2 ap you get 2d6 light, for 3ap you get 2ap. Why is it the first 5d6 costs 1ap, and the second 4d6 cost 5? Even if they were dropped to 1ap a piece it'd be a hard sell, perhaps make it function closer to exalted smite, tier 2 does 10d6 light, has a +1 threat and multiplier vs evil foes for 10hp 2sp, tier 3 does 15d6, has a +1 threat, +2 multiplier vs evil foes, 15hp 3sp. Or keep it as is and put them each on their own timers (so that you can use 1, 2 than 3, rather than one or the other).

Whole smite line is perfect as is, it's the key factor to a paladin.

Extra Lay on Hands is perfect, it's already a very strong skill.

Remove Disease, another skill that become useless at mid level play, more than 1ap a tier is too much, even if it were 1 ap it won't be seen used much.

The problem with the PrE lines is that they don't have strong all around bonuses, the DoS line is the closest, but I think it still needs work (especially with the number of feats required to be invested in it[not to use it, but to make it functional]).