You need this DC to join

[Elixxer]

Yes.

Yes as in they got their saves boosted?

[Munkenmo]

Yes as in they got their saves boosted?

all epic trash mobs used to have a "minion debuff" that caused their saves to be 5 points lower than they are now.

This debuff was removed the same time that insta kills started working in epics.

[LordPiglet]

Interesting.

So what is the hard-to-get standard gear a melee must have to join an epic these days?

Should they have, or must they have?

Frankly, there's a **** ton of under geared (weapon wise) melee out there running epics. I can tell every time I run with more then one of them as the quests start taking just a little bit longer for each under geared person. I don't run a ton of epics, but I can tell when I'm running with undergeared melee's.

Realistically, atleast lit II (x2 if twf) and appropriate dr breakers if the end boss requires. I admit my exploiter uses 2 x min II, but she's rarely in epics. My main (as a twf) carries Min II, Lit II, Cove scimi's (to be replaced by epic chaosblades "soon"), pos pos warhammers. I only need a few more ingredients and I can craft holy burst greater lawful outsider banes and holy burst greater construct banes.

Heck, even cove scimi's are good for Fens/House p since they feature lawful enemies (sahuagin and tieflings).

[Kages]

Should they have, or must they have?

Frankly, there's a **** ton of under geared (weapon wise) melee out there running epics. I can tell every time I run with more then one of them as the quests start taking just a little bit longer for each under geared person. I don't run a ton of epics, but I can tell when I'm running with undergeared melee's.

Realistically, atleast lit II (x2 if twf) and appropriate dr breakers if the end boss requires. I admit my exploiter uses 2 x min II, but she's rarely in epics. My main (as a twf) carries Min II, Lit II, Cove scimi's (to be replaced by epic chaosblades "soon"), pos pos warhammers. I only need a few more ingredients and I can craft holy burst greater lawful outsider banes and holy burst greater construct banes.

Heck, even cove scimi's are good for Fens/House p since they feature lawful enemies (sahuagin and tieflings).

Agreed

[protokon]

Just flat out lie. it's not like they can check your DC on myddo .

My drow sorc had 280hp and an enchantment DC of 37 (with ship buffs) for the longest time, before the spell pass - and nobody ever questioned his DC's or his HP.

A good player will find a way to boost his dc's that high. A great player would play smarter and compensate for lower dc's. It's a simple matter of using the mechanics given to us. negative levels, debuffs in general - there is more than one way to skin a cat, as they say.

Heck even a lazy sorc can just spam mass hold monster a few times until it sticks, you have 3k sp who cares if it takes 2-3 casts to hold a group of mobs :P

-You don't need high DC's to use webs, they are effective even with a dc in the low 30's and are relatively cheap to cast.

-you don't need a high DC to land any type of hold spell. A simple enervate/energy drain followed by flesh 2 stone or hold monster will easily hold the thing long enough for melees to kill it.

-You don't need a high DC to use irresistible dance, just a little bit of effort to make a reasonable spell penetration number.

-You don't need a high DC for kiting effectively. There are many cases that crowd control can be as simple as kiting while DOT-ing or running it back and forth through the CC until it sticks.

Just my thoughts on people ignorant enough to think high dc = good caster, and low dc = bad caster.

[Enoach]

I also enjoy these 'Must Be This big to ride' type lfm

Lets look at it from a numbers point of view

if 42 is the Magic number say for 90% effectiveness or 9 of 10 successes

42 = 90%
41 = 85%
40 = 80%
39 = 75%
38 = 70%
37 = 65%
36 = 60%

Using this we can see that the -3 Will Save from Hypno would make a 39 DC = a 42 DC w/o Hypno debuff. Cost? 1 additional unheighted Hypno spell. Yep more spell points will be needed, but we are talking no more then 10 SP per cast.

[Kages]

I also enjoy these 'Must Be This big to ride' type lfm

Lets look at it from a numbers point of view

if 42 is the Magic number say for 90% effectiveness or 9 of 10 successes

42 = 90%
41 = 85%
40 = 80%
39 = 75%
38 = 70%
37 = 65%
36 = 60%

Using this we can see that the -3 Will Save from Hypno would make a 39 DC = a 42 DC w/o Hypno debuff. Cost? 1 additional unheighted Hypno spell. Yep more spell points will be needed, but we are talking no more then 10 SP per cast.

You have to remember that mobs in turbines world have a 80% chance to roll a 20 on its save and you have a 80% chance to roll a 1. Living by these rules you must include this one aswell.

[drehd]

First you have to understand that there are Very few characters on the server that can sit at a 42 dc, it's alot like the whole 100 strength thing you see people bragging on, yeah you might get there , with various short lived buffs and clickies they can get there... not for long enough to swing at anything and make it effective, but they can grab a screenshot and say "look at me I got a 100 strength!", your average person running around saying they got 42 is counting yugo pots, and probably bard songs, one of those items that increase caster level, etc. there normal dc is probably 39 or 38 same as yours, and chances are through the entire raid they'll never use that pot, there won't be a bard, and they left the caster level item in the bank... but they can get there so they claim it. Next time someone asks you if your dc is 2-3 higher than it is just say "yeah it's 42" and you'll be following the standard around here, heh.

[Munkenmo]

First you have to understand that there are Very few characters on the server that can sit at a 42 dc, it's alot like the whole 100 strength thing you see people bragging on, yeah you might get there , with various short lived buffs and clickies they can get there... not for long enough to swing at anything and make it effective, but they can grab a screenshot and say "look at me I got a 100 strength!", your average person running around saying they got 42 is counting yugo pots, and probably bard songs, one of those items that increase caster level, etc. there normal dc is probably 39 or 38 same as yours, and chances are through the entire raid they'll never use that pot, there won't be a bard, and they left the caster level item in the bank... but they can get there so they claim it. Next time someone asks you if your dc is 2-3 higher than it is just say "yeah it's 42" and you'll be following the standard around here, heh.

Your wrong on a lot of counts.

my 18/2 pale master wiz sits at a 40 enchant dc unbuffed. This is boosted to a 42 with just the ship int buff and a yugo pot. I can assure you that a 42 dc is not impossible, and not even considered hard by many.

When casting in epics as a crowd controller I am indeed chugging my yugo int pot and unless I die I also have that +2 int shrine.

Spell focus items / greater spell focus items / epic spell focus items effect DC's

Caster level increasing items effect spell penetration, and also damage dice, not dc's

I'm a multiclassed wiz so I'm also 1 dc behind a lot of pure endgame casters, 42 isn't hard, it's not impossible.

Please refrain from encouraging players to lie about dc's and spend some time learning what gear your actually looking for then your expectations may well increase.

[Mercureal]

First you have to understand that there are Very few characters on the server that can sit at a 42 dc, it's alot like the whole 100 strength thing you see people bragging on, yeah you might get there , with various short lived buffs and clickies they can get there... not for long enough to swing at anything and make it effective, but they can grab a screenshot and say "look at me I got a 100 strength!", your average person running around saying they got 42 is counting yugo pots, and probably bard songs, one of those items that increase caster level, etc. there normal dc is probably 39 or 38 same as yours, and chances are through the entire raid they'll never use that pot, there won't be a bard, and they left the caster level item in the bank... but they can get there so they claim it. Next time someone asks you if your dc is 2-3 higher than it is just say "yeah it's 42" and you'll be following the standard around here, heh.

Though I get that there may be some sarcasm, as it's not clear I will state that this is *not* good advice.

First of all, lying about your capabilities can net you a bad reputation in cases where you can't live up to your claims. Some epic quests aren't that challenging, but some are and genuinely require serious CC and a 41-42 DC to land reliably. If the monsters are saving an extra 15-20% of the time in those quests, the party will probably wipe. Secondly, it's just bad form.

[Ilindith]

First you have to understand that there are Very few characters on the server that can sit at a 42 dc, it's alot like the whole 100 strength thing you see people bragging on, yeah you might get there , with various short lived buffs and clickies they can get there... not for long enough to swing at anything and make it effective, but they can grab a screenshot and say "look at me I got a 100 strength!", your average person running around saying they got 42 is counting yugo pots, and probably bard songs, one of those items that increase caster level, etc. there normal dc is probably 39 or 38 same as yours, and chances are through the entire raid they'll never use that pot, there won't be a bard, and they left the caster level item in the bank... but they can get there so they claim it. Next time someone asks you if your dc is 2-3 higher than it is just say "yeah it's 42" and you'll be following the standard around here, heh.

It is not impossible to get. It is not hard to get. Hell I did some calculations when I was still on that life and I could get to like 44 or 45 or something like that, standing DC without bard and yugo.

It just takes time to get, which was the whole point of this thread. I am expected to spend months trying to get all the gear to boost it, which I simply will not do. Because I've been doing perfectly fine with 39 and that I TR all the time anyway. Got enough tokens for 2 true hearts in like a week and I never got any complains about my ability to land stuff, and that included quite a few eDA doing CC.

It's just silly to ask for as much as they wanted. Especially for a normal LoB run.

[BladedThesis]

Enchantment?

Enchantment!!

[Ilindith]

Enchantment?

Enchantment!!

Enchantment!

[Thaxlsillyia]

First you have to understand that there are Very few characters on the server that can sit at a 42 dc, it's alot like the whole 100 strength thing you see people bragging on, yeah you might get there , with various short lived buffs and clickies they can get there... not for long enough to swing at anything and make it effective, but they can grab a screenshot and say "look at me I got a 100 strength!", your average person running around saying they got 42 is counting yugo pots, and probably bard songs, one of those items that increase caster level, etc. there normal dc is probably 39 or 38 same as yours, and chances are through the entire raid they'll never use that pot, there won't be a bard, and they left the caster level item in the bank... but they can get there so they claim it. Next time someone asks you if your dc is 2-3 higher than it is just say "yeah it's 42" and you'll be following the standard around here, heh.

standing 42 dc is easy to get on any drow casters with just +2 tome. just need to run tod a few times to upgrade the ring. and a human with a litany will have same dc as a drow. With a +4 tome and NO BOOSTING POTS a first life drow/human can sit at 43 in primary spell class, 42 secondary focus as arch mage or 43 necro, 42 secondary focus as pale master. Add +1 if you tr from a wiz. I might have added ship buff here though. too lazy to go back and check :P

Also I do not think items that increase caster level like epic staff of arcane power increase dc. they just boost spell penetration. only items with spell focus increase dc and any wiz will carry one around. greater enchantment focus item is probably one of the easier to get as many items have that.

[nate007]

if you want to join epic!!!!!!!! quit crying and start farming like the rest of the ppl who run it now did and do.If you think your dc's are good enough for what you run and so there for it should be good enough for every one then go solo the epic stuff like the rest of us do.... Stop crying!!!!!!!!!!

[Ilindith]

if you want to join epic!!!!!!!! quit crying and start farming like the rest of the ppl who run it now did and do.If you think your dc's are good enough for what you run and so there for it should be good enough for every one then go solo the epic stuff like the rest of us do.... Stop crying!!!!!!!!!!

Thank you for completely failing to see the point.

[hermespan]

This is for all you people asking for certain spell DCs to join quests. Because I'm tired of it, and it just happened again 5 minutes ago.

I was asked, out of nowhere, if I wanted to join a LoB. But that I needed a 42 enchant DC if I wanted to join.

Intelligence:
18 Base (Warforged)
5 Level ups
6 Item
3 Enhancement
2 Capstone
2 Ship
2 Tome
3 Exceptionnal
____________
41 Total with the gear I have (15 mod)

Let's see what enchant DC I can have with that now:
10 Base
15 Int modifier
9 Heigntened Spell
1 Spell focus
1 Greater spell focus
1 Archmage secondary focus
2 Enchantment crafted item
_____________
39 Total

Yep, 39. It can get higher, yes, but let's see what it would take...


Let's add gear I DO NOT have for intelligence

41 Current total intelligence
1 Epic 7 int item
2 +4 tome
1 Litany
________
45 Total (+17 mod)

That would bump my DC to 41, assuming some very time consuming gear farming. Awww, still not at 42 though, guess I should have never taken necro as my main focus!

Archmage main focus enchant
1 more DC
__________
42 yayyyyyyyyyy

So yeah, you expect me to have 42 or higher DCs to join your raids? epic quests? epic raids? It's ridiculous, thank you. It's not that I didn't try to have a good DC in it, I took 2 feats and enhancements to make it better but seriously, get real with your numbers. You can't reach 40+ easily.

Here's what it sounds like.
LOL GET EVERYTHING FROM WHAT YOU WANT TO RUN BEFORE YOU WANT TO RUN IT WITH ME
/facepalm

With archmage spell mastery II enhancement <Enchantment>, archmage DC is +2 ;-)

What you do then is ask them the name of _their_ wizard character. Find out what their DC is Oh you don't have one? Will the DC on your wizard be 42 when you build him and start running epics? Ah yea didn't think so.

Aside from that, as long as your DC is over 36 on enchant, it's "high enough" as long as the rest of the party doesn't suck. People that need a wizard with 42 DC have under 400 hit points, no SP pots, and you don't want to run with them anyway.

I have 39 DC so far (with no bard or yugo pots, just ship buffs) and haven't been in a failed epic yet with my wizard and I PUG them all the time. I can't even remember the last time I saw someone die in an epic. Just sayin....

Edit: this is a first life wizard btw. I'm focusing on necro and DoT's next life... so my enchant dc probably won't be any higher.

[Chai]

Hypnotism clickies FTW. - 3 will save. I have a PM that is not focused in enchant WHATSOEVER. Still does fine in epics.

/hilarity.

[Psiandron]

Enchantment!

Brilliant! a big +1 to you for that Ilindith.

[Chai]

It is not impossible to get. It is not hard to get. Hell I did some calculations when I was still on that life and I could get to like 44 or 45 or something like that, standing DC without bard and yugo.

It just takes time to get, which was the whole point of this thread. I am expected to spend months trying to get all the gear to boost it, which I simply will not do. Because I've been doing perfectly fine with 39 and that I TR all the time anyway. Got enough tokens for 2 true hearts in like a week and I never got any complains about my ability to land stuff, and that included quite a few eDA doing CC.

It's just silly to ask for as much as they wanted. Especially for a normal LoB run.

Not to mention the quest they are denying you from is the same quest you need to run to get the gear that helps you in that situation.

Its like the group leaders are putting the cart before the horse. Its like denying someone from red fen epics due to not having epic claw bracers and gloves.