You need this DC to join

[fuzzy1guy]

Interesting.

So what is the hard-to-get standard gear a melee must have to join an epic these days?

Some sort of weapon and 400+hp.

All i've ever seen even suggested a melee needed in any epic. And hey. Completed reguarly with everyone.


Only casters get the 3rd degree about builds and dcs... From leaders who really should not be leading anything. And often have no clue whatsoever about playing a caster. (tell the ice sorc to throw a firewall HERE. lol)

Just avoid those groups. You'll be saving yourself alot of bs and drama.

[seskie1]

Don't worry, the dc needed to knock my pants and charm them off isnt that high, just ask Morfane.

[danlan]

Drinking yug pots on a wf am is quite fine.

[Rapthorn]

Necro DC: 45
Enchant DC: 43
Hitpoints: 550 (could be higher)
Race: Drow
Standing Int: 50

Total time to get there: 9 months of 1-2 hours a day play, around 5 days a week. It's not exactly asking for the world to be able to be an effective caster in epics.

Time to get from level 1 to 20 - 1 to 2 weeks

Time to get from level 20 to an effective level 20 - 9 Months

And you are okay with this?

[MsEricka]

Sorry Distributed, I have to disagree with you. A 40+DC on a first life arcane is doable.

Yes you need gear, yes you need to put everything you've got into INT. It's sure not going to happen the minute you turn lvl 20 though, and that I can agree on.

18 base INT
5 levels
2 tome
7 item
3 exceptional
2 capstone
2 ship buff
3 Wizard INT
42 INT

Yup don't freak, if you can't get exc INT +3 then get +2 and go for human adaptability INT. And in fact you could get a +3 INT tome from the store, and only wear a +6 INT item instead. There's lots of ways to get INT up high.

10 base
16 INT bonus
1 Archmage Spell Mastery 1
1 Archmage Spell Mastery 2
2 Item (easy to get, lots of items or craft one)
9 Heighten
1 Spell focus
1 Greater Spell Focus
1 bard
1 yugo pot (if you dare)
43 DC, first life arcane

So hitting a 40 is pretty much like cake.

[Galeria]

+9 heighten? So, this means you are only casting level 1 spells?

All good mages should keep a spellsinger bard in their back pocket so they can have cake.

:-)

[jaegarnel]

If you play a melee you're expected (and for the harder epic quests/raids nearly required) to have VERY good gear which is very time consuming to farm. Guess what, same if you play a caster. If you don't feel like grinding the gear, then stick to normal and perhaps even hard difficulties.

Necro DC: 45
Enchant DC: 43
Hitpoints: 550 (could be higher)
Race: Drow
Standing Int: 50

Total time to get there: 9 months of 1-2 hours a day play, around 5 days a week. It's not exactly asking for the world to be able to be an effective caster in epics.

(PS: If this WAS for a LoB norm or hard then NVM =) but I'm assuming it was elite or epic)

You don't need that kind of thing to succeed in the easy epics. My wizard with 40 enchant DC does just fine in house P epics and other easy ones.

I'm aware that's probably not enough to work in Sands epics, but making up an arbitrary requirement like 42 DC (which is after all a relatively small boost in your success chance over 40) for a quest is ridiculous.

And FYI, most people don't gear check melees or ask them any questions about their build. I'm pretty sure I could make the gimpiest barb ever, give him a Lit II greataxe (which only takes spending 30 minutes every 3 days for 2 months to get btw), and get into most epic groups easily.


Now I don't really care if some players want to be narrow-minded and clueless, it just means I'll avoid them, but that kind of LFM can potentially scare away new players.
Personally, I didn't start doing even the easy epics until 2 months after I capped my wizard because I kept hearing about how tough they were and how you needed 40+ DCs. Then a friend talked me into trying eVoN 1, and somehow I had little trouble landing hypno + mass holds even with only a 38 enchantment DC.

[Lavek]

hypno=+3 dcs

just putting it out there

[Ilindith]

Sorry Distributed, I have to disagree with you. A 40+DC on a first life arcane is doable.

Yes you need gear, yes you need to put everything you've got into INT. It's sure not going to happen the minute you turn lvl 20 though, and that I can agree on.

18 base INT
5 levels
2 tome
7 item Epic item, am supposed to get one before running epic quests right?
3 exceptional
2 capstone
2 ship buff
3 Wizard INT
42 INT

Yup don't freak, if you can't get exc INT +3 then get +2 and go for human adaptability INT. And in fact you could get a +3 INT tome from the store, and only wear a +6 INT item instead. There's lots of ways to get INT up high.

10 base
16 INT bonus
1 Archmage Spell Mastery 1
1 Archmage Spell Mastery 2 Can only get one mastery if it is your secondary focus, it is for me
2 Item (easy to get, lots of items or craft one)
9 Heighten
1 Spell focus
1 Greater Spell Focus
1 bard Counting this is ridiculous, you don't have a spellsinger all the time
1 yugo pot (if you dare) Not worth it
43 DC, first life arcane

So hitting a 40 is pretty much like cake.

I am very well aware how high my DCs can go, I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm saying it's pretty **** ridiculous to ask that casters have a 42 or higher DC to join epic quests or raids.

Funny thing is, I've been doing quite fine with what I have right now.

By the way, green notes, -4 = 39.

hypno=+3 dcs

just putting it out there

I use it all the time, thanks.

[MsEricka]

That would be why I also made the statement about human adaptability. But there's other ways to increase INT too, some useful, some not so useful.

In the end though, I think we're pretty much saying the same thing.

Is it ridiculous to require a caster to have a 42DC to do a quest? Maybe. Most people who ask for specific DC's have no idea how to run quests and want people who can do everything for them.

As someone else pointed out, hypno debuffs mobs. So does crushing despair, symbol of death, energy drain and many others. A lower DC doesn't mean as much if you're smart enough to know that.

Here's the deal, you and I know this, mister raid leader doesn't. That's his problem. Let him fail on his own. I would dare say that any supposed party leader who demands that people link weapons or require specific DC's is part of a party that everyone should avoid in _most_ circumstances.

This reminds me of an LFM I see almost nightly for Abbot. The same user puts up an LFM and requires users to send him a tell as to what puzzles they know. But why is the LFM up almost every night on the same character? Because said raid leader doesn't have a clue and wants everyone else to do everything. Sure they succeed once in a while, but they fail more often than not.

[Sithias]

Don't worry, the dc needed to knock my pants and charm them off isnt that high, just ask Morfane.

I can vouch for this.....my DC for "pants knocking off on Singh" is like 20 and its no fail! :P

[BoBo2020]

The request was simple. 42 dc. If you don't have it, don't join. Or start your own group to run the quest and go with your 39 dc. Going to the forums to cry about it will accomplish nothing.

It's ok, imho, to use the forums to point out illogical trends among players. The feedback here (some of it pointed) helps reduce "OMG must have 42 DC" LFMs.

[Calozz78]

This is for all you people asking for certain spell DCs to join quests. Because I'm tired of it, and it just happened again 5 minutes ago.

I was asked, out of nowhere, if I wanted to join a LoB. But that I needed a 42 enchant DC if I wanted to join.

Intelligence:
18 Base (Warforged)
5 Level ups
6 Item
3 Enhancement
2 Capstone
2 Ship
2 Tome
3 Exceptionnal
____________
41 Total with the gear I have (15 mod)

Let's see what enchant DC I can have with that now:
10 Base
15 Int modifier
9 Heigntened Spell
1 Spell focus
1 Greater spell focus
1 Archmage secondary focus
2 Enchantment crafted item
_____________
39 Total

Yep, 39. It can get higher, yes, but let's see what it would take...


Let's add gear I DO NOT have for intelligence

41 Current total intelligence
1 Epic 7 int item
2 +4 tome
1 Litany
________
45 Total (+17 mod)

That would bump my DC to 41, assuming some very time consuming gear farming. Awww, still not at 42 though, guess I should have never taken necro as my main focus!

Archmage main focus enchant
1 more DC
__________
42 yayyyyyyyyyy

So yeah, you expect me to have 42 or higher DCs to join your raids? epic quests? epic raids? It's ridiculous, thank you. It's not that I didn't try to have a good DC in it, I took 2 feats and enhancements to make it better but seriously, get real with your numbers. You can't reach 40+ easily.

Here's what it sounds like.
LOL GET EVERYTHING FROM WHAT YOU WANT TO RUN BEFORE YOU WANT TO RUN IT WITH ME
/facepalm

Pugging these days are a nightmare for some of your Epic Quests (chrono/Eda) As a pug putting up an lfm you have to screen people that have important rolls in the quest. You are trying to do EPIC Quests without having basic Raid Gear (tod rings). IMO you should put in the work before in raids before you move to epic. The 11 other people should be relying on your "word" when your gear is sub-par.

Example..would you invite a monk without tod rings or a melee without greensteal/crafted dr breaker? Sure they will claim they have good dps, but everyone knows without those items they are way behind the power curve. All this will do is put a heavy strain on the poor healers and its already hard enough to find ones willing to join a pug.

[ulticleo]

fwiw:

1) I agree that demanding specific DC's is ridiculous. there is more than one way to get quests accomplished (e.g. as others mentioned: mind fog, symbol of death, energy drain, cloudkill, hypno: all reduce saves; double up dancing ball and webs; etc)

2) I had the following conversation a couple of nights ago: I hit lfm, get tell, what's your dc? I answer: enough. they insist: how much? I reply: 44 necro, 42 enchant. I get accepted, I drop group. I get a tell: why? I answer: I don't like interviews. Out of curiosity, I my ddo the caster they pick up a few minutes later. 37 int. I silently wish them luck, and hope the wiz will show them he can pull it off.

3) Yes, it takes time and effort to get decent gear. I don't have a single piece of epic gear on any of my toons. I only started running epics about 3 weeks ago at my buddy's insistence, and I have been playing for more than 2 years.

18 base
5 lvl up
3 tome (20 shroud completions, not that hard to get)
4 enhancement (yes, human)
6 item (no epic gear, after all)
3 exceptional (again, 20 tod runs should net you *something*. I actually have whisper ring, and am still searching for either of the wiz rings)
1 littany (this is a bit hard to get, but if you put some effort, you'll get it)
2 lich form (yes, PM)
2 ship buffs
2 yugo pot (being a PM and all)
2 capstone
=48
= 19 mod
dc:
10 base
9 heighten (Galleria: it means that all my dc based spells are cast with heighten on, not that I am casting lvl 1 spells)
19 int mod
2 item
1 pl wiz feat
1 spell focus
1 GSF (necro only)
1 lich form (necro only)
= 44 necro, 42 enchant

Yes, it took some effort. yes, it took some time. but it includes *not a single epic item*.

Now, if you are not willing to put the effort to get decent gear, why do you think you would be willing to put in the effort to get epic gear? (hint: epic gear doesn't automatically make you a better player)

That being said, I will continue not joining groups that ask for my DC, and I will continue to take the first 5/11 people who hit my lfms.

(one exception is abbot, where I put the afforementioned "send tell with puzzles". MsEricka, it's not because I don't know the raid. I need to know that at least all my puzzles are covered. Also, it allows me to filter out those who don't bother to read lfms before clicking on them.)

[Chai]

The good thing about casters is they dont have to pander to this "have high DC or G7FO" nonsense any longer. It used to be that this was the only real contributing way to build casters, but not anymore. There are still some holdouts however, who feel they can hold that group slot hostage until they get exactly what they want. THe rest of us have already created our own LFM, filled it, and are 3/4th the way to completion before their LFM fills with the cookie cutter CC wizard they were looking for.

[Spoonwelder]

I am loath to suggest this but why not just lie....it's not like the leader will know the difference......he can't see your exact setup - myddo is a joke, gear can be changed, stats can be increased temporarily.

When you join and perform above expectation he will never know...unless he is wanting you to solo the quest and will be counting how many times you cast your spells to get them to land. Me I am usually too busy fighting/casting to watch what others are doing.

Yup - my fighter has 42DC for trip, sure, stun, no problem, necro but of course...whatever you want. I mean lying is the new norm now anyway so why not go with the crowd.

[Ilindith]

Pugging these days are a nightmare for some of your Epic Quests (chrono/Eda) As a pug putting up an lfm you have to screen people that have important rolls in the quest. You are trying to do EPIC Quests without having basic Raid Gear (tod rings). IMO you should put in the work before in raids before you move to epic. The 11 other people should be relying on your "word" when your gear is sub-par.

Example..would you invite a monk without tod rings or a melee without greensteal/crafted dr breaker? Sure they will claim they have good dps, but everyone knows without those items they are way behind the power curve. All this will do is put a heavy strain on the poor healers and its already hard enough to find ones willing to join a pug.

Thank you for enforcing the "If you don't have as much gear as I do you don't get in my groups" attitude.
That's what the game has become.
I can't play with people if I don't spend months trying to get the gear/tomes to make my int a bit higher?
It's the first time in 11 lives that I spend more than one day at 20, and I guess I'm not gonna do it again and just keep TRing.

fwiw:

1) I agree that demanding specific DC's is ridiculous. there is more than one way to get quests accomplished (e.g. as others mentioned: mind fog, symbol of death, energy drain, cloudkill, hypno: all reduce saves; double up dancing ball and webs; etc)

2) I had the following conversation a couple of nights ago: I hit lfm, get tell, what's your dc? I answer: enough. they insist: how much? I reply: 44 necro, 42 enchant. I get accepted, I drop group. I get a tell: why? I answer: I don't like interviews. Out of curiosity, I my ddo the caster they pick up a few minutes later. 37 int. I silently wish them luck, and hope the wiz will show them he can pull it off.

3) Yes, it takes time and effort to get decent gear. I don't have a single piece of epic gear on any of my toons. I only started running epics about 3 weeks ago at my buddy's insistence, and I have been playing for more than 2 years.

18 base
5 lvl up
3 tome (20 shroud completions, not that hard to get) 3 months
4 enhancement (yes, human) Warforged
6 item (no epic gear, after all)
3 exceptional (again, 20 tod runs should net you *something*. I actually have whisper ring, and am still searching for either of the wiz rings)
1 littany (this is a bit hard to get, but if you put some effort, you'll get it) Who knows when I'll loot one
2 lich form (yes, PM) I'm archmage
2 ship buffs
2 yugo pot (being a PM and all) Not PM, I don't want to drop below 100% fort with epic mobs
2 capstone
=48
= 19 mod
dc:
10 base
9 heighten (Galleria: it means that all my dc based spells are cast with heighten on, not that I am casting lvl 1 spells)
19 int mod
2 item
1 pl wiz feat
1 spell focus
1 GSF (necro only)
1 lich form (necro only)
= 44 necro, 42 enchant

Yes, it took some effort. yes, it took some time. but it includes *not a single epic item*.

Now, if you are not willing to put the effort to get decent gear, why do you think you would be willing to put in the effort to get epic gear? (hint: epic gear doesn't automatically make you a better player)

That being said, I will continue not joining groups that ask for my DC, and I will continue to take the first 5/11 people who hit my lfms.

(one exception is abbot, where I put the afforementioned "send tell with puzzles". MsEricka, it's not because I don't know the raid. I need to know that at least all my puzzles are covered. Also, it allows me to filter out those who don't bother to read lfms before clicking on them.)

I know how high my int can get, I know how high my DCs can get. I did my number crunching. But it requires stuff THAT I JUST DON'T HAVE. It's not like I haven't been trying to get them better but you don't always loot what you want. There's no point posting how you got it higher than me.

[Thaxlsillyia]

welcome to epics as a caster. 39/40 dcs are good for house P/D. for the higher lvl stuff you will need a caster who is better geared. took me 5-6 months to go from 39 dcs to 42. it is worth the time if you want to play the toon as a caster on the long run. if you are just going to tr out it is hardly worth the grind. getting groups to finish a raid is a LOT easier on an average melee than on an average caster.

if you are asked out of the blue if you would like to join "X" raid provided you have "Y" dcs, which you don't, te polite thing to do is to say that you would love to join them but can't meet that cut off and wish them luck in finding a caster... or ignore it and go on doing whatever you were doing.

[elricken]

Here's the funny thing, DC 42 enchant is in no way necessary for chrono.. yes it's good to build for high dcs on your caster and Distributed has no problem landing his instadeaths or CC that I can see. Gear and DCs aren't skill, while they may be necessary up to a point it's really the player that counts. Quite frankly the OP is one of the better casters I've grouped with, and if his disco balls and holds are missing a bit it's not like it's hard to spam crushing despair to make up for that. (Which I have no doubt distributed is intelligent enough to do.)

[moops]

Just carry a Dreamspitter or use any other item with +2 Ehcantment DCs. Problem solved. And really, gearing my WF Wiz was the easiest, fastest, and cheapest out of every alt I have. She is first lifer and can reach 42 DC, epic gear is just the Diabolist Docent that everyone leaves in the chest all the time, and Shaman's Band. I got my scroll for Diabolist 100K on the AH, shamans band 50K. I used misc TOD rings until I got the one I wanted--these rings were easy to get because they are the same crappy rings that no one wants.

DC does matter for a few things, if you don't have the DCs tell they leader that you know which debuffs to use to make your DCs work.

Sometimes as a leader, I might only have room for one caster in group because everyone else in group is on timer on their casters and they are all bringing melee or divines--in this case, I have to be more specific about what I need from a caster--be it DOTS, DPS, CC or insta killing. Also, since I do not like to use pots on raids I lead, a caster with low DCs if they are only caster in group, is likely to run out of SP. I do not think that knowing this this makes me a bad leader, it means that I happen to know the weak area of said group, and how to build around it. However most of my groups tend to be very caster heavy, and in this case I don't ask for DCs, I tell the casters to work out among themselves who is doing what to make the CC work. I've dragged a sorc thru LOB recently who had just returned to the game and did not have any enhancements at all. But he did have great working knowledge of how to make his CC work.