Bring Alliances

[peetrs]

As I mentioned I dont want to reduce the tread about alliances to a alliance chat discussion only.

Ok, let's not reduce it just to chat channel only ... but apart from chat channel and ship access, what will be the benefit of having it? I can't think of any, since I alrady stated that DDO is small team PvE game, which relies on private instaces.

[lhidda]

Ok, let's not reduce it just to chat channel only ... but apart from chat channel and ship access, what will be the benefit of having it? I can't think of any, since I alrady stated that DDO is small team PvE game, which relies on private instaces.

Before update 5 rise of the guilds we were happy without guild ship and the new features, because we did not know about them. Now most will agree that the update offered a huge benefit for all. Just because not all new features for alliances are mentioned here or someone just can not imagine it, doesn't mean a similar and equally awesome step/benefit can not be achieved with alliances (e.g. U13 Rise of the alliances).

[Chilldude]

No my clumsy sentiment couldn't be applied to guilds, friendlists and chat channels, because those are the tools I'm talking about.

You stated that guild alliances are not needed because we already have all the tools we need. The same could have been said before they added guilds, guild ships, friend lists, or chat channels. I'm sure at the time those features were implemented there were probably people saying they were unnecessary, and other features were more important. Your inability to understand something does not dismiss its existence.

There is a well rooted standard style of play in DDO. It's sloppy, unstructured, and does its best to remove skill entirely from the process. Quick and easy for fast repetition. If you enjoy that style of play, you will have little trouble in finding like minded players to play with. It requires little if any communication or team work, just players with gear and stats to over power the instance. So you need do little more than throw up a LFM and take the first people to apply. For even faster and easier completions, you can join a raid channel to join up with better geared players to over power the instance to maximum effect.

Players who do not find that style of play enjoyable are more interested in the player behind the keyboard than the character they control on screen. Before guild levels, these people would tend to eventually stumble upon each other and form small guilds which would allow more like minded players to stumble upon them until eventually a small community is formed. However, since the inception of guild levels, players now have an investment both past and future to consider before leaving one guild to join another. Today the vast majority of these players are in extremely small guilds made up of very close friends that they can trust. Together they have made achievements that they would be forced to toss aside to join another guild. On top of that, even if they did, their future efforts would be awarded to someone else, who they might one day disagree with to the extent that they feel compelled to leave, or possibly even expelled from the guild.

If renown followed the player, then this wouldn't even be an issue. Players could freely come and go to find a home with just the right fit, even if there were a penalty. That's not how it works though, therefore the functionality that was implemented with guilds was removed by airships. What the OP, myself, and scores of others would like to see is that functionality restored by alliances that function as guilds once did.

[Krell]

which is a very rudimentary work around for what could be a proper in-game feature. sure, its functional, just as walking to the shops is functional, but how many people with access to a car walk to the shops for their weekly groceries? sure a quick trip to get some bread of milk might get you walking, but i bet most people with a car won't carry home a full weeks worth of shopping on foot. DDO is ready to have some proper alliance features so it doesnt feel like we're working with sticks and stones any more.

the channel system we have now does not put every alt we own into the alliance channel, so some alts get forgotten, as do members who missed the news of the new channel. can you imagine playing DDO where you had to use a /joinchannel command to get into guild chat? sure it would work, of course it would, and lets face it, its just a few seconds worth of typing, but i wouldnt be very impressed with a game that worked like that.

there is also no screen to take a look at who is online in the alliance, a very handy tool for the smaller guilds banding together type alliances. yes, i'm not just talking about raiding alliances. i'm always using the sort by online column in the guild list so i know who's about, i'll often check it after running a quest with a pug to see if any more members are about for some guild parties. i'd be looking to do the same thing with an alliance too. i dont want to be that guy in the harbour general asking for a party every 2 mins in an alliance channel. i'd prefer to look at a list to see if there are any new faces, then say hi and ask them what they we're planning to do.

as for ship invites, the current work around is to have someone run back to their ship, throw you an invite, wait for you to get to a tower then invite you on board. doesn't sound any where near as good as a drop down list of alliance ships that are open up to all alliance members.

we do have alliances today, but the tools are very basic and i think creating a proper alliance feature in the game would be a good step forwards. oh, and i guess there would be an alliance name too, not too keen to have it floating above heads but showing it on the examine screen and also in the who list would be good.

Not a bad idea if implemented right. From what I'm reading it seems to go beyond a chat channel. Maybe a better consideration is the ability to merge guilds while still retaining the structure, and the ability to break off again from the guild merger if things don't work out. Asheron's Call had something similar where a monarch (Guild leader) would join under another monarch but retain the player tree below him or her. If things didn't work out the previous monarch could break off the original guild and be independent or look elsewhere. Anything that increases grouping I think could help. Currently guild mergers are not a smooth process.

[mournbladereigns]

Not a bad idea if implemented right. From what I'm reading it seems to go beyond a chat channel. Maybe a better consideration is the ability to merge guilds while still retaining the structure, and the ability to break off again from the guild merger if things don't work out. Asheron's Call had something similar where a monarch (Guild leader) would join under another monarch but retain the player tree below him or her. If things didn't work out the previous monarch could break off the original guild and be independent or look elsewhere. Anything that increases grouping I think could help. Currently guild mergers are not a smooth process.

But that means i'd have to black list an entire alliance when jerk player from Uber Alliance annoyed me and passed loot to his alliance/guildy/friend/gf, threw it in the trash!

[Kushiel]

User channels are more than adequate for this.

A little disagree regarding the above comment.

From a UI perspective, channels are 'harder' to find and navigate than pieces of graphical user interface.

A well crafted UI can place tools like buttons (with expanded information that becomes available by hovering over segments) that requires not memorizing various things, is persistent, and has a discoverable nature to people just poking through already available pages; depending on implementation.

There is a framework already in place for LFM and Guild information in the existing pages. If there was a reasonable network of alliance creating, it seems like it may be possible to fit it in that structure.

It could be kind of nice to have a way of exposing Alliances to new guildies - or even showing them to server-wide populations.

[Darknark]

As others have said, the ingame userchat channels fit this use quite well - if we ignore the inability to 'police' userchat channels (I.E: kick trolls, kick people that you feel like kicking, change password, temporarily 'ban' from the channel, permanently ban from the channel... etc).

Assuming we got the ability to police channels we create (and/or empower others of our choosing to also police said channels) then that would allow 'alliances' of sorts without forcing the users to have to remake the channel everytime someone decides to troll or gives the password out. And would save turbine from having to code in a 'second' form of guilds.

[herzkos]

/joinchannel <whatever you want to name your alliance> <password optional>


and for ship sharing,

/1 someone let me bum a ship invite? thanks

think of it kinda like:
"request permission to come aboard".
don't forget to salute the OOD and the flag(ensign) though

seriously, why not alliance renown? so you have a group of guilds
all sharing everything, why not renown?
d'oh or you could you know, merge.

[ReaperAlexEU]

Yah, still that's what custom channels are used for (or friendlist, you just have to keep it updated and properly commented, so yes, u have to do it yourself). I come from small guild (we have around 6 people) and I dont have problem. Ok, I agree there should be some option how to list all people in chat rooms, but that's about it.

This suggestion feels kinda like guy who has 2 toys to play with think it's not enough, so he'd like to have 3rd toy to play.

well yes, i would like a 3rd toy to play with, and its one a lot of DDO's competition has to offer. is that such a bad thing?

now i know its going to take dev time, and i understand that its not something every one wants. i do however feel its time this sort of feature was added. we have "player housing" and crafting, now lets have alliances too.

[Chilldude]

As others have said, the ingame userchat channels fit this use quite well

As others have said, they are not.

[peetrs]

Before update 5 rise of the guilds we were happy without guild ship and the new features, because we did not know about them. Now most will agree that the update offered a huge benefit for all. Just because not all new features for alliances are mentioned here or someone just can not imagine it, doesn't mean a similar and equally awesome step/benefit can not be achieved with alliances (e.g. U13 Rise of the alliances).

Tbh, only thing U5 brought into game was yet another easy-button (ie ship buffs) and more convenient mean of travel (me like that one, not using it much though). Oh and ofc, it brought yet another tool how to measure epeen. That's about it.

You stated that guild alliances are not needed because we already have all the tools we need. The same could have been said before they added guilds, guild ships, friend lists, or chat channels. I'm sure at the time those features were implemented there were probably people saying they were unnecessary, and other features were more important. Your inability to understand something does not dismiss its existence.

Iirc guilds were present since launch of game, same as friendlist, same as chat channels. Anyway, I'm not arguing about these, these are cornerstones of any and all MMO games out there. But you seem to not uderstand that Alliances wouldn't bring anything special to DDO other then one UI screen for people who can't type / read (and let's hope, that if they ever implement alliances, you won't get alliance buffs and other **** like this).

My point is, that in DDO, there's no other reason to have alliances other then alli chat and perhaps free pass to ships. This is PvE game, where you can't compete with other alliances in anyhting (other then epeen measurement and bragging rights). If DDO had some sort of PvP meaningful interaction (look at Lineage Castle battles, look at EvE and it's Alliance system... those are games, where alliances have meaning), then sure.

The tools are already in game, I've already said that, the devs could change channel membership from per-character to per-account and implement some way how to enlist online people in chat room, that's all you need.

There is a well rooted standard style of play in DDO. It's sloppy, unstructured, and does its best to remove skill entirely from the process. Quick and easy for fast repetition. If you enjoy that style of play, you will have little trouble in finding like minded players to play with. It requires little if any communication or team work, just players with gear and stats to over power the instance. So you need do little more than throw up a LFM and take the first people to apply. For even faster and easier completions, you can join a raid channel to join up with better geared players to over power the instance to maximum effect.

I'm not sure what you talk about here, heck, I'm not even sure we play same game.

Players who do not find that style of play enjoyable are more interested in the player behind the keyboard than the character they control on screen. Before guild levels, these people would tend to eventually stumble upon each other and form small guilds which would allow more like minded players to stumble upon them until eventually a small community is formed. However, since the inception of guild levels, players now have an investment both past and future to consider before leaving one guild to join another. Today the vast majority of these players are in extremely small guilds made up of very close friends that they can trust. Together they have made achievements that they would be forced to toss aside to join another guild. On top of that, even if they did, their future efforts would be awarded to someone else, who they might one day disagree with to the extent that they feel compelled to leave, or possibly even expelled from the guild.

If renown followed the player, then this wouldn't even be an issue. Players could freely come and go to find a home with just the right fit, even if there were a penalty. That's not how it works though, therefore the functionality that was implemented with guilds was removed by airships. What the OP, myself, and scores of others would like to see is that functionality restored by alliances that function as guilds once did.

I myself come from small guild made of people who enjoy playing with each other (and that's why I'm in that guild). But what I don't get is in what way I would I be forced to toss away my achievements with guildies if I left and joined other guild? There's no achievement system in DDO, guild levels are not achievements (there's nothing to call achievement other then fact you looted lot of chests for renown trophies with othe people in guild).

[Chilldude]

I'm not sure what you talk about here

Yeah, it's pretty obvious to me that everything I said went right over your head. What the heck, I'll take another swing at it...

Before guild levels:

Creepykarl of the guild Mustard Biscuit Maniacs is playing in a group with Fastfrank of the guild Fatherless Kids with an Empty Garage. Frank says to Karl, "I like the way you talk." To which Karl replies, "I like the way you talk." They obviously mesh well together, sharing many complementary traits, so Frank invites Karl to join his guild. Karl is flattered, but doesn't want to leave the Mustard Biscuit Maniacs without a hate tank. Karl graciously declines the offer but reciprocates the offer to Frank to join his guild. Frank can't leave the Fatherless Kids with an Empty Garage sans healer, so he declines as well. Just when things seemed entirely hopeless, Frank came up with a brilliant idea, "Let's merge our two guilds!" Karl agrees, "I wouldn't mind living in an empty garage eating mustard biscuits." The guild name Mustard Biscuits in an Empty Garage was already taken so they named the guild after their favorite gardening tool, and Sling Blade was born.

After guild levels:

Creepykarl... yadda, yadda... Fastfrank... yadda, yadda... I like the way you talk... yadda, yadda... Frank invites Karl to join his guild... Karl declines... Karl invites Frank... Frank declines... everything seems hopeless... yadda, yadda... Frank suggests a guild merge. Both players instantly realize that would never work as each guild has too much time invested to start over, and neither guild really wants to be absorbed by the other. Karl and Frank put each other on their friends list, but other than a, "How's it going?" here and a, "How ya been?" there, they drift apart.

Alternate ending:

Turbine implements a guild alliance feature that restores the functionality guilds once provided. The Mustard Biscuit Maniacs and the Fatherless Kids with an Empty Garage form an alliance. Each guild retains their own unique identity and assets, but on the alliance tab all the members of each guild are displayed as one. The alliance tab functions just like the guild tab, and alliance chat functions just like guild chat.

Karl, and his fellow maniacs, can interact and group up with Frank, and his fellow Fatherless Kids, just as if they were in the same guild. For all intents and purposes, they are in the same guild, as an alliance is basically a guild of guilds. However, if at any time a guild no longer desires to be part of the alliance, they are free to leave the alliance without losing anything they have earned as a guild. Everyone wins, no one loses.

In this manner, several small guilds could function as 1 large guild. The guild leader of each guild would take on the role of officer in the alliance, with the ability to invite new guilds to the alliance, and update the alliance message of the day. You wouldn't need a way to remove guilds from an alliance, if several guilds no longer wish to remain allied with a guild in the alliance they can leave and form a new alliance. The only thing that might be needed is a cap to the number of guilds in an alliance.

The alliance feature would also help avoid the alternate alternate ending:

Karl accepts Franks offer to join his guild. He, and his fellow maniacs, join the Fatherless Kids and for awhile things go swimmingly. Then one day in a raid Frank realizes Karl is actually criminally insane and he boots Karl and the other maniacs from the guild. The thought of losing all that he and his fellow maniacs worked toward drives Karl into a berserker rage and kills Frank with a lawn mower blade. A horrific tragedy that could have easily been avoided with a guild alliance.

[Ungood]

I personally LOVE the idea of being able to make guild alliances. I think they would be a great addition to the game.

Sharing Ships would be a cool idea, but of course not be able to use things like the "Guild Chest" on another guilds ship. This would allow a group of smaller alliances to have a larger variety of amenities open to them via different ships.

I personally think the nay sayers would be the first people to jump all over using this idea however, and that most objection comes from just peoples need to object to change.

The ability to build guild alliances would be a great aspect for DDO and open up a great new way to play the game and build unity with out loosing identity.

[lhidda]

Thanks for participation on the thread and all your thoughts contributed.

[lhidda]

But that means i'd have to black list an entire alliance when jerk player from Uber Alliance annoyed me and passed loot to his alliance/guildy/friend/gf, threw it in the trash!

Do you currently black list entire guilds when player from uber guild annoyed you and passed loot to his guildy/friend/gf?

[lhidda]

One year has past, same idea, same thread.

[RedHost]

But in Guild Wars Alliances are well implemented. Maybe have a look at it.

Guild Wars is a PvP game, with a real reason for such communication. The exclusivity of raid channels is possibly the worst aspect of DDO right now, as far as longevity of the game goes.

[Charononus]

There is already a way to do everything you asked for; merge your two small guilds.